UKC

Hello, 

I am a confident and avid rock climber, scrambler and hiker. Holding SML and RCI qualifications. 

My partner is wanting to join me on more adventures and we did Tryan North Ridge (Summer) and she absolutely loved it. 

She has no climbing experience besides indoors and would like to try some Grade 2 and 3 scrambles. 

I am thinking of bringing her on scrambles similar to Tryfan's Nor' Nor' Groove and Idwal Staircase/Continuation, but to give myself confidence in her ability of dealing with heights and some of the movements placing her on a rope and and threading it through the terrain or slings. 

Would you recommend this as a minimum safety precaution for scrambles found within Ogwen valley? Or treat the shambles more like multi-pitch climbing and place gear in?

I may take her to Little Tryfan on top route with a ghost rope so she understands the role of a leading. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Ropework for scrambling is complex. Your question would position you in the same role as an instructor with your friend as a novice. An instructor would use a variety of techniques depending on the difficulty of the terrain such as - direct belaying on spikes, italian hitches on a sling, full gear anchor and belay plate.

Rob Johnson made these videos for the BMC and although incomplete - they are the best ive seen on the topic: https://youtu.be/AajLbNISIgY?si=Q5tCq6B61Jr1u8bj

I think the idea of doing an easy route on Little Tryfan to get some feeling for climbing ropework is a good one.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

How did you first learn to rock climb / scramble? I'm assuming that you accompanied some friends or a group on some scrambles like many of us did. I'm not sure why your girlfriend needs to be treated differently. Doesn't she feel that it is infantilizing?

In reply to Reader_Rambles: As a confident and avid rock climber, scrambler holding SML and RCI qualifications I tihnk you should do what you think is sensible.

Personally if I was taking the kids I'd place any gear I thought I needed to stop the safety rope misbehaving.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Lots of grade 1 mileage. If they find grade2, 3 etc too scary, or intimidating it doesn't matter. It's not compulsory to go harder and harder, let them enjoy their time in the hills at a level they are happy with. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Additionally if you feel you don't have the skills to take her onto steeper terrain and make good decisions to keep her safe (pitch, short rope, spot etc) then don't, stick to lower grades with easily escapable lines.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Tbh I mean no offence at all but it sounds like you're not 100% confident in your skills to lead a less experienced partner so def start smaller (but fair play if you're just being cautious).

A few thoughts from years as a nervous second in the past and memories of starting out scrambling (and I still find seconding scarier than leading sometimes to be honest). Nb I haven't actually seen any recent to suggest your partner is nervous, mind, but it should still apply!

Agree that going from one grade one scramble to grade 2/3 seems like a bit of an unnecessary rush. Better to have a period of learning the feel of movements and rock - that comes over time and mileage.

As a second, the fear was often not being able to communicate with my partner if things went wrong - jammed rope etc - and not having the skills to problem solve so you're very dependent on your partner but feel like they've abandoned you if you're scared and shouting and being ignored! So think about communication systems, and explain how the system works (eg as a novice you're not going to understand the differences between pitching/scrambling ropework and when it's safer and not to fall).

Finally, apologies if obvious, but I've found this seconding in the past - pay attention to the places that are going to be scary for a newer scrambler, which aren't necessarily the places that you would be nervous - eg an exposed traverse where I might swing terrified me, but for someone else, they might think it's a jug fest compared to the delicate slab that preceded it. Protect accordingly.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Sorry one extra suggestion - I see so many couples where one is the default leader and then the other never has confidence to go with anyone else. Might be worth also encouraging her to develop her skills independently-? That doesn't mean you can't do stuff together as well, but it should help confidence enormously. Places like the Women's Alpine Adventure Club are great resources for this.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Just seconding the above comment...
My youngest daughter has been out on the hill with me from a young age...
Yes.. she can lead up to an easier G3... Clogwyn Y Person Arete..
But had never been out alone..

I sent her up Bristly Ridge, what we had done many times... and I went up Y Gribin... the aim was to meet her at the top. 
I also have 2-way radios to keep in contact. 

She found this a huge learning jump, with route finding.. decision making etc. 
So, along with the rope scrambling stuff... gaining the confidence to be on comfortable terrain by yourself is priceless. 

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

Really good point, I go climbing with my wife all the time who is much more risk adverse than me. She is way more hardcore then she gives herself credit for and we have done tonnes of big mountaineering classics together. However I'm always 'guiding' her.

She did a women's only winter skills coarse this year, I was typically an unsupportive arse (or so I was told in no uncertain terms) as I told her she could learn everything she needed from me 🤔

Anyway she got tonnes out of it, and is much more confident in her own judgment. The downside she us now can give an imformed critique of my rather laissez faire risk assessment...

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Another thing i found the hard way (as I can be a dick) going out with your partner, if they are at a different level than you, is not about ticking off classics you want to do, it's about having a lovely time in the hills that you both will enjoy. If you drag you girlfriend up stuff she doesn't like you will both have a miserable time and she will refuse to belay you, however if you pick the right routes you will be set for a lifetime of adventures.

In reply to ebdon:

My ex-boyfriend's problem was when I started climbing harder than him & he couldn't follow anymore...

In reply to ebdon:

That sounds like an upside!!

Yeah, I find it particularly weird as I didn't learn like that (though I'm sure I've learnt plenty from more experienced friends, now that I've learnt to lead etc myself, I def find I trust them, particularly confident young males, a lot less ). (And don't get me started on other climbers at the crag assuming I'm the less experienced because I've packed the tits....). I'm now in the position of actually wanting to teach a lot of this stuff to a male partner - a lovely point for me, realising I do actually know some things! - but sadly am too injured to do so. 

While there are millions of advantages to having a live-in belayer, I think it's a shame that I come across so many people who lack confidence because of that dynamic - either because they don't feel they know enough to do it independently, or I used to find lots of women would come bouldering with me, say, because they felt self-conscious/pressured/whatever with their male partners. 

Glad to say I know plenty where this isn't the case too, and I'm definitely not judging - I defer to others on far more than I ought - but if you want to enjoy climbing/mountaineering/whatever I definitely think there's a lot to be said for learning yourself.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

In response to all, thank you for your responses. I have guided/instructed others in this position but I've been fortunate to not go home with them afterwards. 

She is certainly more risk adverse than me and worries easily so it's putting the appropriate measures to ensure the correct risk management is in place for her. She is below any ability I have had the pleasure of spending a day on the hills with before, but her enthusiasm amazes me. I think I will start on little tryfan with rope management and then onto Y Gribin (Ogwen), if that goes well I'd see a natural progression to Bristly Ridge as you kind of get put into a bubble surrounded by the rock and not as aware to the exposure. I am hoping by the end of the week, we can manage Idwal Staircase/Continuation. 

I have not had the pleasure of any of the rock climbs, nor scramble in Idwal. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Isn't Idwal Staircase permanently running with water? I've never done it for that reason.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

I'd politely suggest to not operate as an instructor/leader/mentor on graded routes you've no yet climbed yourself, until you've more experience leading. If you don't know the exact line, awkward bits etc... it's more challenging to know how a nervous client might react.

Imho bristly ridge will be more intimidating than a dry idwal staircase (when it's not a river), BR has several exposed bits. Scrambles that are on faces or in gullies will feel less exposed to novices. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

I have scrambled majority of Tryfan, Bristly and Glyder Fach. But I understand your point and take it on board. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Looking after someone on a rope in mountaineering terrain is probably the most situation dependent and dangerous thing I do as an instructor. Teaching it is difficult and nuanced because what you are really trying encourage is good judgement rather than any particular hard skill. 

You clearly have some great experience and skills with your ML & RCI. If you're 'guiding' your girlfriend regularly on scrambles then why not get some professional input to check over and improve what you're doing. It would be good CPD if nothing else.

I work in Ogwen daily in the summer and I don't think theres any good terrain for your idea of threading the rope around terrain or on slings. We never need to 'move together' in North Wales because it's just not big enough, and doesn't have the objective dangers, to need speed! I would suggest either soloing what you're both comfortable with, short sections which you might solo whilst she's tied to belay and then you belay her up, or actual pitching (which might be short pitches with rope coils, or longer pitches). Occasionally you might find you can walk with the rope to transport it between steep sections, but this is just walking. 

Scrambling uses a lot of rock climbing skills. Get out and put the RCI to use and teach her to climb! Anyone who can second to a reasonable grade with feel much more confident scrambling with a rope or not. Don't bother messing with ghost ropes - get her happy on a top rope then get leading with her seconding just like real climbers do. If it's a weird dynamic teaching your partner, get her to book herself a course. 

If she's dead keen, get her to take agency for her own development. This might be going out with you, or finding others to go scrambling with, doing lots of scramble miles without a rope etc. If you want to operate as an independent pair it well worth her getting to grips with at least the basic mechanics of it for herself. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

My advice to anyone who shows an interest in being taken on more serious scrambling terrain is to offer to take them climbing rock routes first. They gain confidence in you, themselves and the rope and it's an opportunity for them to develop some movement on rock skills in a safe environment where you can communicate with them easily and protect them 100% of the time. There's also the psychological confidence of knowing you have climbed routes harder than you will experience scrambling. When I introduced my ex to climbing, we didn't do anything in the mountains until she could climb VDiffs and knew how to abseil (which only took a few trips out, sunny days and good food helps!). You can see the difference in someone's demeanor setting off from the car park when they have those skills -they can climb, they can take gear out, they know the names of the kit, they can descend - they already feel like they're a climber when they throw the rope on their bag (beginners carry the rope, gf or not 😉) and I think it makes for a much more positive and fulfilling day out for someone. I'd rather get all this done in the relatively chilled environment of cragging than get stuck pitching tower ridge because someone's understandably got scared and lost confidence*. There's also very little opportunity for a beginner to hurt themselves seconding a route, particularly single pitch, and as I'm sure you're aware when you're instructing beginers they're very good at trying to kill themselves and you!

Unless I have climbed with someone a lot, I personally don't like the kind of moving together you are describing anyway and I'd rather solo with someone and carry the rope in case it's needed.  I often think that the skills for moving together on scrambling terrain are more difficult to get right than to climb routes.

*One of my first ever routes was tower ridge in winter with someone I didn't know, a pair of summer walking boots, bendy crampons and 2 walking axes. I absolutely shat myself the whole way up and said I'd never climb again. He pitched the whole thing from Douglas Gap to the top out in less than 3 hours and we passed two parties that were moving together. I'm not sure how long the scrambles are that you're talking about, but there's nothing wrong with pitching long sections instead of trying to move together with a beginner.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Just go for it. Treat her like a client. If it doesn't work out, move on. Pointless having a partner who can't partner you.

Many long term relationships forged under the pressure of an epic. I'm not suggesting you take her up a multi pitch on Tryfan in a storm, but who knows - could be the start of a wonderful relationship.

Think of it this way, what if you invest a couple of years in the relationship and then she turns out to be a sport climber or a boulderer, or god forbid, a surfer.

In reply to Philip:

None as a bad as "I'm a cold water swimmer", meaning they went in for 1min last September. 

In reply to LucaC:

Everything you said was great advice but just a quick n=1 anecdote on this bit.

I once went hillwalking with a climber (well, he said he was a climber) and he was absolutely terrified. It took twice as long as expected to get around. I think because there was no rope at all and he wasn't used to the terrain and exposure (ridges etc).

But, for the OP, if his partner is used to big hill days and ridge walks already (are they OP?) then that part won't be a problem

In reply to mountainbagger:

Thanks again for the advice throughout. 

She is an avid hillwalker and we have covered ridge walks such as Helvellyn and Tryfan but not so much those which are narrow and vertical together. This will be new terrain for her and possibly a testing time for me. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

With my now wife, we were also avid hillwalkers. We did a lot of grade 1 and easier 2 scrambles eventually, working our way almost systematically (by ease) through my Scrambles and Easy Climbs book (which was/is brilliant). Eventually we became very comfortable with grade 2 (ropeless). We also we learnt to climb together (with the kind help of somebody I met through UKC!), until I was able to lead mods/diffs. We were then able to try some of the more challenging scrambles/easy climbs, particularly some of the excellent linkups/enchainments from that book. However, no matter how much I wanted to give something a go, if she didn't fancy it, it wasn't going to happen. So I learnt to just go with the flow. But then I was a noob too, so wasn't necessarily giving off an air of confidence!

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

As others have said, I think grade 2 or 3 scrambles can be quite serious. You would probably be better off on an easy multi pitch rock climb here everything is under control (or should be) your second is only moving when safely belayed. Consider something on Tryfan Bach and if that goes well, perhaps an easy route in the Milestone.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Who are you doing this for (yourself or her)?

It takes time to become competent and comfortable with ropes. Why rush?

I talk from experience of misjudging when to introduce harder routes and the resulting knock back in confidence and the time taken to recover from that.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

From a personal perspective, I never judged scrambles very well (over or underestimated difficulty - sometimesway TOO confident) until after I'd had a few years rock climbing, leading and soloing easy stuff.  Probably not the most welcome advice, but I'd say to gain well judged confidence on grade 3 you need to have gained a degree of climbing confidence on the sharp end. 

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

See it as a learning experience for yourself, and develop more ropework skills besides pitching. If she isn't confident in her movement skills, she should be protected by a rope on serious ground. Be patient, kind and supportive and enjoy lots of happy days out together. Ogwen is a brilliant place to go for a scrambling weekend.

In reply to Reader_Rambles:

Lots of great advice here. Speaking as two hill walkers who got ourselves quickly into scrambling / mountaineering (with only my v rusty caving skills between us)...

Your ML background leads you to think about taking responsibility of course. But you could both approach this as her taking responsibility for getting herself confident - with you as back up. I would echo the idea of doing lots of grade ones with, and this is the crucial bit IMHO, her going first. She'll learn to route find and gain skills and confidence as she takes the lead over Crib Goch etc. Together  with a bit of climbing wall stuff to get her used to harnesses and belaying etc.

Then, if you have cash I cannot recommend enough the PYB 5 day Advanced Scrambling Course. She should be leading Cneifion Arete by the end. (You could always do another course if you want a week together and cash is really no object.) If not, I think you're gonna have to teach her to lead. 

Then you're good to go. You'll be happily squabbling over who gets the best pitch before you know it.