UKC

Thought of this system a few months back and I've tried it since and it seems to work pretty well, however I'm surprised to not have seen it out there before... and makes me feel a bit uncomfortable

So basically I always chose to abseil on sports routes to stripe quickdraws; feel this is best due to friction wear on rings if I was to be lowered off instead.

System I have involves a 16mm x 120cm DMM nylon sling; larksfoot that around my belay loop, tie a over hand knot 6inch up and then DOUBLE FIGURE OF 8 BUNNIES EARS which I use to secure myself to both bolts with 2 screwgates. The over hand is done so I can attach a ATC and Abseil

Basically the same as 11:45

youtube.com/watch?v=0qgygg8pzGI& 

However with double figure of 8 bunny ears. My question is really that I figured that YouTube tutorial method is bombers, however using a figure of 8 bunny ear mean I could make the system redundant and can attach to both bolts. Feels a bit sketchy just being attached to just one... especially if choose to stripe I have to be independent of the rope at some point. 

Any problems with that system that anyone would advice? surprised to not seen it before, but I suppose sports climbers would just use a daisy chain? Maybe I should just stop being stingy 


 

In reply to Jackscottadair:

Just lower off the chains, they are there for a reason. It's much safer, wearing the chains lowering is a non issue. Top roping directly through does wear them, use quickdraws or thread them and use a carabineer to take the wear. If this doesn't make sense, find someone experienced to show you.

In reply to Jackscottadair:  Yes, but he's referring to what to do when you've finished and you're going to strip the quickdraws at the top and choose to abseil. In that case what you're doing is fine , and appears safe but you haven't seen it described as it's a bit overkill, and getting all those knots out of the sling will be a bit of a pain

In reply to Jackscottadair:

I would agree with the above. Its very noble of you to not want to wear the anchor point at all, but realistically a single lowering off is fine. Your video highlights the dangers of abseiling, its not worth that risk to save a miniscule amount of wear n tear in my opinion. 

If you don't like the idea of hanging from 1 bolt at the top while stripping a route, you can quickly clove hitch the rope to a quickdraw in bolt number 2 while you get yourself sorted. Tying a clove hitch 1 handed is quite a useful and satisfying skill!

In reply to Jackscottadair:

What you describe sounds safe but, as others have said, getting loaded knots out of slings afterwards can be a right pain.

In reply to Jackscottadair:

If you thread a bite of rope through the anchor and tie a figure 8 in the bite and screwgate it to your belay loop you’re never independent of the rope.

Doesn’t solve the issue of wear on the anchor, but from a safety perspective you’re still on belay (albeit with a little slack while you thread the bite).

In reply to Jackscottadair:

You're going to a lot of unnecessary faff, just rethread and get lowered.

If you have to abseil (as is the standard in some countries) there lots of different ways of ensuring you're never on one point of protection without having to go to all the faff of a bunny eared double figure of 8 on a sling.  Although how you go about that depends on the setup at the belay...

In reply to Jackscottadair:

Wear from lowering off is negligible.

Just lower off: it's safer and usually much easier to clean steep routes than by abseiling. 

In reply to Twiggy Diablo:

  > If you thread a bite of rope through the anchor and tie a figure 8 in the bite and screwgate it to your belay loop you’re never independent of the rope.

I think that is essential:  to be attached to the rope, at all times, before being lowered off. This should be drummed into (sport) climbing beginners.

In reply to Jackscottadair:

As everyone else has said, just lower off. Don't try to re-invent the wheel. They're called lower-offs for a reason. 

 I put up loads of routes. I want people lowering off them. I would think every serious equipper in the UK will say the same. 

Loads of people in the US get killed through abbing off instead of lowering. Unless there are very special circumstances, please don't do it. Just lower off. 

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

Nail on the head there Gorgeous xx

Back out in Costa in Nov hopefully catch up with you then,  Andy.

In reply to Twiggy Diablo:

Pedantry alert... It's a bight of rope. Even if you've held it in your teeth. There, I feel calmer now 😌

In reply to ripper:

Bight your tongue!

In reply to Jackscottadair:

If you haven't yet been persuaded just to lower off rather than abseil, Petzl make the Dual Connect which could work for you, it has one fixed length and the other end being adjustable. This would be a lot easier to use rather than your fixed sling with knots as not all lower offs are the same.  I've got the single version of the connect and its great. Just remember not to drop the rope whilst setting up the abseil!

In reply to petegunn:  don't you just use a bight of rope on a quickdraw or whatever while you're threading the rings to exactly make sure you don't drop the rope while you're attached af the top.  It's another advantage of 'method A' described earlier, threading the rings to a figure 8 on a screwgate, as you remove that potential problem. 

Agree on the use of the connect 🙂

I'm going to congratulate the OP for doing the right thing and not do tons of top roping straight off the rings 

In reply to John Stainforth:

Often not possible though - many double-bolt belays don't have enough space in them to thread a bight, meaning you can't avoid untying (at least in Dorset).

OP - Although belt-and-braces you can pull up a couple of armfuls of slack, stick an overhand/figure of 8 on a bight and screwgate that to your belay loop before untying which will keep you on the penultimate draw as a back-up, more commonly a couple of quickdraws / slings on screwgates / combo of a draw/sling with a Connect to equalise offset bolts are used into the anchor bolts, with an overhand on a bight clipped to your harness or the bolts to avoid risking dropping the rope but not really a safety measure. Which you choose is down to your risk tolerance, but in my experience any of the above are considered acceptable (and I have seen the latter method taught by qualified instructors).

Noting there is a small additional element of risk in the latter method if the whole chunk of rock holding both belay bolts gives way, it does allow you to untie, thread both bolts, pull rope through until both ends hit the floor (assuming rope is long enough, which on almost all UK sport a 60 will be), then ab on both strands without needing any knots whatsoever. I understand it's common in the States to rap to preserve the fixed gear, but I suspect their remote canyons are less frequently inspected than our well-travelled sport lines. 

In reply to Alex Riley:

I'm wondering why top-roping would result in wear whilst lowering wouldn't.  I would have thought the wear is proportional to the force exerted by the rope on the lower-offs as it rubs.  During the top roping process of taking in as a climber moves up won't this be minimal (unless you're literally hauling the climber up)?  I would have thought the only significant wear would be as the climber is lowered back down, in which case does this actually differ from a lead climber lowering off?

Not a regular top-roper, asking for a friend

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

It's not more or less wear, it's wear that's  hard to avoid against unnescessary wear.

In reply to Pottsy84:

If any instructor is teaching a method where they clip the rope to the anchor or gear loop as opposed to their belay loop they need further training…

(I think that’s the scenario you meant)

Theres no advantage to it.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Exactly right, Mick. Just use the lower-off provided. Though in my opinion the future is Ram's head lower-offs. Convenient and safe. Expensive, yes. I actually added several at my own faff (chain and maillon) and expense to my local sport crag to expedite quick evening visits. The biggest problem is extended top roping straight through the lower off by groups. Really anti-social. Oh, and I used to get my gear from Jim Titt's Bolt Products based in Germany but after Brexit this is now more expensive and bureaucratic. Progress, huh?

In reply to jezb1:

But there is one big disadvantage! 

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

You're absolutely correct, it's just that if lowering from the in situ gear is restricted to the last person who climbs and cleans the route that's only one weighted lower on the gear per group of climbers. 

Unless they're the last person and are cleaning the route, all the other lead climbers (or top ropers, like your friend ) should be lowered off their own draws or carabiner.

If they all top rope on the fixed gear then it's at least one, possibly more, weighted lowers per person so the wear will be increased just via sheer volume.

In reply to jimtitt:

Meh.  Elitist bollox.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Yes, good point.  Poor effort on my part to overlook that possibility.

In reply to Pekkie:

Hi Pete, 

Some friends experimented with Ram's heads on Portland maybe a decade ago now (time flies!) As you say, convenient and safe - or they certainly should be. At the time though, I had reservations - not about the product but about the potential usage. They're kind of 'clip and go' - which, strictly speaking, is a big advantage. However, although we inhabit a 'clip and go' society, at the top of sport routes, I want people to slow down and think very carefully indeed about what they're doing. After all, their lives are at stake!  Threading staples, or other lower-offs, takes a little time and a little faff. For people's own safety, I'm concerned about clip and go. 

I reckon I've got mild dyspraxia (the Savvas club!) but it only took me a few moments to realise how to use Ram's heads. Nevertheless there have been lots of instances down here of people not bothering to think how they work and not properly threading the rope through - or just going off one. (There are two - for a reason!) Sometimes it can be stomach churning and you have to quickly intervene with alarmingly complacent people. 

Exactly the same argument applies to people just shoving cams in without any attempt to seat them properly (more 'clip and go'). And there's absolutely nothing wrong with cams. In the same way, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Ram's heads per se. It's the psychology of it all which concerns me. The better the climbing product, the more convenient to use, the more opportunities for laziness, the more possible danger? 

Having said all that (phew!) Ram's heads probably are the future - or a significant part of it. And anything we can do to support Jim Titt's Bolt Products, we should be doing. He's helped a lot of people I've known and probably far, far more that I don't know about. An all round good guy. 

Mick 

In reply to Pottsy84:

Regardless of the size of the rings/bolts/maillons, you can't avoid untying your original knot at some stage in the proceedings .... unless, of course, the rings are big enough to squeeze your whole body through

In reply to bpmclimb:

Yes - but if you can put a bight through before untying you can screwgate that to you before untying original knot so you're never detached from the anchor. If you can't get a bight through, the best you can do is screwgate a bight pre-threading so you're only on the last draw once untied rather than the anchor.

However, given that in either scenario it doesn't really matter unless the anchor itself gives way (barring failure of whatever you're using to go in hard to the anchor), that last draw is your safety net in either scenario.

In reply to jezb1:

I agree (although in the OP's scenario there is the advantage of having the rope free to pull through and ab on both strands) but in my experience it seems to be commonly acceptable. To be fair if the lump of rock with both anchor bolts came out with you attached to it, you're gonna be having a bad day either way!

But as per my initial reply, belt-and-braces is to back-up via a bight on your belay loop pre-chains so you're still on the penultimate draw when you untie. Up to you to judge the quality of the anchors and the rock they're in and assess the risk.

In reply to Pottsy84:

I wasn't restricting my comment to threading a bight. If you can't thread a bight, you should pull up the rope, tie a figure of eight in the rope and attach it to you belay loop with a krab, then whilst still belayed, untie your waist knot and thread the single end of the rope through the belay bolts and retie to the your waist. This way you are always on belay. 

In reply to John Stainforth:

Now if I were as pedantic as the average poster on these forums I would point out that your post did specifically say threading a bight through the anchor (which is clearly preferable if possible)...  ;-p

We're saying the same thing as to best practice. My only point was there are alternatives (which inherently carry a little more risk but are nevertheless common) which make rigging an ab off a bolted belay straightforward if that's what the OP really wants to do. 

In reply to Pottsy84:

Instead of pulling the bight from the last draw, just pull it from in front of the draws in the anchor. That way you're always attached to the anchor 

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

Exactly what I was about to say? 🤓

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

Fair point and exactly what I do / described (possibly not well), but somehow I convinced myself that means you're no longer on the anchor (in my head there was no rope through the bolts - because you haven't got as far as threading yet, you're still clipped!).

But this is all sidetracking. However you secure yourself whilst cleaning, it seems common (again emphasising the slight increase in risk (and also hasten to add it's not my common practice)) to secure the rope back to you only to prevent dropping rather than as a back-up, and if you're happy with that slight increase in risk (ie. being off-belay for 30s whilst secured to both anchor bolts, by which time you will have inspected them and the rock and hung around on them for a while sorting yourself out) you can thread the anchors and drop both ends to the ground for an easy ab. 

In reply to Pottsy84:

You're right, it does seem common practice. I'm probably preaching to the converted but - If you're going to bother clipping the rope to your harness at all then you may as well clip it to something that will actually catch you, rather than a gear loop that will probably rip straight off in a fall.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Pertinent points there, Mick. However, whenever you lead climb indoors you nearly always clip into a screwgate crab and lower off. Simple. You never have to untie and thread the rope. You do get accidents indoors but they are nearly always caused by the lead climber not tying in properly. Sometimes caused by bad belaying. Which the walls cover by prominent notices reminding you to tie in properly. Granted, outdoors is different - in particular scally climbers might steal the crab. You can get crabs with a ring constructed as part of the chain and that's where Rams Heads come in. On first acquaintence you can clip in and work it out and a hammer is needed to get them off - which also has the advantage of being replaceable in cases of excessive wear. Trouble is: expense. I just think that the mere fact of having to untie and thread the rope at the top of a sports climb introduces the possibility of human error. That's my two pennerth!

In reply to Pottsy84:

All I said was "I think that is essential:  to be attached to the rope, at all times, before being lowered off. This should be drummed into (sport) climbing beginners."

In reply to Pekkie:

A very good counter-argument indeed!

Clearly this is a tricky subject but one which is important to get right - or as right was we can be. The more reasoned input the better.

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yes, a reasoned argument! My stance is that if you have trad have trad: if you want sport have sport. In other words, sport should be as safe as possible (no long run outs/high first bolts as you used to get on slate and in Yorkshire) with clip and go belays. Trad is the place for you if you want to show off the size of your balls. Of course, many previously bold trad routes have been tamed by modern protection but that is another issue.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Apologies John, I was replying to the quote in your post which for some reason isn't showing in the quoted text format (though it has got the little arrow before it which should have given me the clue). The comment was not yours but from higher up the thread.

Either way it was intended as tongue-in-cheek pedantry to fit in with the general style of the forum rather than any kind of real disagreement