UKC

My friend and I have been having a discussion about how to attach his cows tail to his harness.

I have a Metolius PAS (https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas_personal_anchor_system.html). The instructions (https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pdf/PAS-AnchorChain-UtimateDaisy-web.pdf) say "Girth hitch the longest loop through your harness tie-in points." There's no picture, but I interpret 'tie in points' as meaning the same place you would 'tie in' your main knot for climbing - e.g. through both the leg and waist loops.

My friend has a Simond 'La Vache' cows tail (https://www.simond.com/la-vache-climbing-lanyard-75-cm-id_8324695), the instruction sheet here: https://www.simond.fr/sites/simond/files/doc/1442846217_notice_vaches.pdf

The text says

"Make a lark’s head knot with the full device: pass the attachment loop through the tie-in loop of the harness, then pass the end(s) of the lanyard through the attachment loop". I interpret that as meaning the same as my PAS, but my friend says that 'tie-in' point is a direct translation of the French for belay loop. The sheet shows a picture that looks a bit like the cows tail being tied onto the belay loop.

So - should you hitch your cows tail to your harness's [rope] tie in points, or your belay loop? Does it matter? If so, can anyone explain what are the benefits/dangers of either? Does the same logic apply to my own PAS?

Thanks!

The rope tie-in points. Marginally safer, and reduces wear on your belay loop. 

https://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/experience-story?cid=qc-lab-pers...

Tells all, but the pro tip near the bottom gives you the practical tips about how to avoid pain. 

Thanks both for the speedy replies, that's really helpful - especially that black diamond testing info and the reasoning given at the end.

Great link!

If you're going to girth-hitch a PAS around the tie-in points as recommended in that BD link then here's something to watch out for.  The loop of the girth-hitch is parallel to and about the same size as your belay loop so it's possible to clip a belay or abseil krab into it by mistake, thinking it's your belay loop.  If the krab at the end of your PAS is only clipped to a gear loop then your belay or abseil krab is now clipped into a very weak loop that's in no way intended to be weighted.  

Hi Adrian. I'm not 100% sure I fully understand you're comment so want to make sure I'm not doing something crazy! So the situation is: one end of my PAS is girth hitched to my tie in points, and the other end is clipped to a gear loop. I then attach *a load bearing something* onto my PAS, on a loop close to the hitch  to then weight it. Half the load is taken by the hitch/harness tie in, and the other half is taken by the gear loop, then the gear loop fails. In this scenario, I rain down quickdraws onto my belayed, but the properly-secured end of the PAS should still hold (albeit taking a shock load)?

I can see that being suboptimal, as I know you generally shouldn't shock load any PAS/tether at all. Luckily my PAS is bright blue and my belay loop is red. Also on the Metolius PAS (maybe others are different), the loop to make the girth hitch seems relatively small. I will make a note to look for people who have similar colour tethers and belay loops tho and warn them tho

Since you're here and reading this, you can tell me if I'm doing this right. When I've set up abseils, I clip the (locking) ATC carabiner through two connected loops about halfway up the PAS chain, and then once I take my PAS off the anchor, I clip that end back onto my belay loop. Does that sound reasonable? The only time the end of my PAS is clipped to a gear loop is when it's stowed e.g. on the ascent. I'm only climbing single pitch sport routes so the only time I use my PAS is when setting up a lower off or abseil when cleaning a route.

No the risk is that you try to clip something (eg anchor) to your belay loop, but actually get the loop that is formed by the girth hitch.

At this point, if the cow's tail were hanging loose and you weighted the anchor you would fall neatly into space as the girth hitch came undone. The other end of the cow's tail being clipped into a gear loop might just save you (by preventing the girth hitch from fully releasing) but you wouldn't want to bet on it.

Edit: unless you pull the two tie-in points together with the girth hitch it will be just as big as the belay loop.

Ahh, thanks, that makes more sense now. Glad my PAS is a different colour to my belay loop now, though that's purely good luck. I get a little pang of terror every time I lower off that I've done something wrong. I don't know if I should want that feeling to go away, it usually leads me to triple checking everything so I guess it's positive overall...

Hi. 

I have read the BD article, and know of the Todd Skinner incident,, but I still girth hitch to the belay loop. This is just about comfort. It allows for a bit more movement and air. The latter really being helpful on multi day routes. I would imagine some women might find this even more true given the height of their waists, with some managing to even place tension on the belay loop in normal use  

That's what I meant - thanks for answering that one for me!

To those adding dislikes to this discussion, if you disagree please tell us why.

I have a Camp 'twist' daisy which has a clever little system that creates a loop around your tie-in points rather than pinching them together as with a larks foot. Not strictly a PAS though.

Hi all,

I'm the friend.

I'm going to start this with a warning, part of my job is scientific analysis and validation of ideas and concepts, so this might become very dry.

When reading about attachment of PASs and Cows Tails you firstly get a lot of conflicting results, which largely boil down to 3 schools of thought.

1. Attach your PAS to the tie in loops, else the PAS will wear out your belay loop.

2. Attach your PAS to either the Belay loop or the Tie in loops, it doesn't actually matter as long as you do it right.

3. Read the F*!?~#g manual and do what they say.

As someone who views scientific rational on a daily basis I'm not a huge fan of blindly following school 3. There are definite merits to reading the manual, gear will have been tested in the way the manual states and it's the manufactures who shall be open to litigation should their method prove to be faulty. However it's worth noting that everyone runs to a budget and just because you set something up in one way doesn't mean it's not safe to do it another way, it simply can be down to the manufacturer not testing that way. THAT SAID YOU SHOULD ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURES RECOMMENDATIONS UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY SURE OF THE THEORY BEHIND NOT DOING IT. IF IN ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER DO AS THEY RECOMMEND.

I hope that last part was sufficiently clear.

Now on the point of PAS's there are two distinct styles, Sling based (Static) and rope based (dynamic). It's worth noting that in the manuals for all rope based PAS systems the instructions state using the belay loop (Beal Dynaclip, Petzl Connect Ajust, Simond La Vache) as your harness attachment point. I've not looked at lots of PAS static systems as my preference is to have some form of dynamic support on my anchor, even if it is just 75 cm of 10 mm rope. Conversely the PAS systems instruction is recommended to be lark hitched to your tie in points.

So fundamentally going from whats written in the instructions you attach static slings to your tie in loops, and dynamic ropes to your belay loops. This brings you to the question 'Are people getting the two different systems confused because they're for the same purpose and erroneously lumped together?'. Personally I think this is the issue.

Now running to the question of 'Is it dangerous to use a PAS in the belay loop?' Fundamentally the Belay loop is the single strongest part of your harness, this isn't an opinion, it's a statement of fact. So there isn't a worry about tying in your loop for raw strength. Drilling down to the root cause of why people mistrust the belay loop comes down to the concept of wear. 

https://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/experience-story?cid=qc-lab-pers...

Is a decent enough article but it's also worth noting that the recommendation at the end is not backed with empirical data and is a 'feeling over facts' statement. Black Diamond also published this article showing that a belay harness with 50% cut through still passed the 15kN standard test. One with 75% cut through almost passed, and all with excessive wear way past what I'd be happy passing a personal inspection all still tested beyond 15kN.  

https://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/qc-lab-strength-of-worn-belay-lo...

Also, it's worth noting that I can't find any data on PAS wear on belay loops.

Why I use the Belay loop on the La Vache 

1. It's in the manual. The illustration is explicit in using the Belay loop, the images on the website only use the Belay loop, the term 'tie-in loop' may be unclear, but Simond is a French company and the French instructions say 'du point d’ancrage' which is a more generic term 'Anchor Point'. It also references the illustration 2, which really looks like the belay loop. Every other dynamic lanyard with a hitch is 

2. It gets in the way when hitching from the tie in points. A 10mm rope is not a nylon sling, adding the rope and the plastic safety shell on your tie in point puts it very close to your tie in knot, when cleaning an anchor point it makes tying off difficult because the knot is right next to a taught rope. Last time I was using this I had to drop the tension on the anchor so I could access the rope, so it wasn't doing it's job.

3. I've not seen any actual data on excessive belay wear cause by hitching a rope to it. People can point to the BD article, but it gives an opinion piece at the end, and the only article on Belay wear I can find is also from BD and points that the harness can be essentially wrecked and still be able to pass the safety standard. So when people tell me that it 'might wear the harness' Unless I see something with empirical data showing me that it's dangerous to conduct this I'm going to treat this with scepticism and refer to the BD belay loop test data. 

4. I find the 75cm too short when hitched to the tie in, it's basically perfect length at the belay loop. 

However that said, if given a PAS comprising a nylon/sling system I'd probably hitch it to the tie in points as it's smaller, and with the loop system it's more adaptable to length. As a preference I prefer some form of dynamic shock absorption just in case something goes wrong.

Feel free to chip in with anything/any data.

Rare to get such a comprehensive and considered response. Thank you.

Edit: For my part, if I use a tether I generally will lark's foot it to the belay loop; I find it simpler and less cluttered that way. I have a 'working' harness I've been using for bolting routes around here for the last 5 years or so, which has had a tether attached semi-permanently and used very frequently. When I retired the harness last month (a gear loop broke under the weight of all the bolting gear!) there was no apparent deterioration whatsoever to the belay loop underneath the tether.

When I first started using an anchor sling I hitched it through the waist and leg loops to avoid fabric/fabric contact on the belay loop. However, I found it gets very crowded when using half ropes, so I now tend to tie it to the belay loop and save the waist/leg loops for the ropes. Same for ice axe lanyard too. I just try to remember to keep checking the belay loop for signs of wear