UKC

The local press is going through one of its period fits of outrage about the persistent misspelling of the Roaches. They claim that Roches was the standard spelling until the OS spelt it differently. There is muttering about Napoleonic French prisoners of war and / or the Norman origin of the term.

Does anyone with a Chaucerian education happen to know whether 'Roches' was a standard OE or middle English usage? Or have any other credible version of the origin?

Gordon, this is probably all explained in your book, but I don't have it handy, and I have it in mind to drop a line to the paper pointing that, whatever the local die-hards think, the place is world famous amongst climbers as the Roaches.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Isn't there a stance on Eliminate A on Dow Crag called Rochers Percher (sp?).....which I took as meaning perched rocks......though they've gone now.

In reply to Dave Garnett: I think it is definitely worthwhile to drop them a line (was it the sentinel?) and tell them that language evolves and to get a life.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

You're right. The OE was Roches, and dates from the time of the Abbey of Dieulacres which was sited south-west of what is now the Tittesworth Reservoir (Abbey Farm). The name Roches did not apply just to the crag we call the Roaches, but the whole area, north of the Abbey, including Hen Cloud and Ramshaw. There is also a tradition that there was an even earlier name for the area: Ann's Roches, believed to be derived from the Celtic moon-goddess, Anu or Danu (thus the Dane River running through Gradbach). A trace of this name survives, today, at Ann Roach Farm, near Gib Tor.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Dieulacres Abbey - Norman/French 'White' monks.

Further note on Anu. Christian churches dedicated to St Ann are invariably on the site of a sacred pagan well dedicated to Anu. St. Helen's likewise re. Elian a Celtic spring goddess.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

It seems obvious that the spelling of Roaches has been Englished from the Norman French Roches, via an Englished pronunciation of Roches. Luckily we ended up with something more unusual than The Rocks. Of course, roche, roc, rocher, rock, etc, can all be traced back to the Latin rocca.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

yet even as recently as the 1957 the guidebook called the crag the Roches.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Further note on Ye. I think I've mentioned this before, but how many people here know that High Tor is in fact derived from Ye Tor (simply, 'The Tor')?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
St. Helen's likewise re. Elian a Celtic spring goddess.


Surely the patron st of double glazing?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

is it not referred to as such in Classic Rock, or is my memory playing tricks on me?

GTE

In reply to Richard Bradley:

Nice one

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

As I thought, then, nothing to do with French PoWs!

I don't have all the old guides handy here at work, but I think the spelling has been inconsistent (for instance, I tend to refer to Roche End).

The argument basically comes down to whether you think that standardisation of spelling smothers local colour. I would argue that Roaches is now the de facto standard spelling and that the variation from the obvious OE/French spelling adds to the sum of local oddity, rather than detracting from it.

The correspondent in the Post & Times seemed to object to the name having an association with fish, for some reason. There will probably be complaints that the guide isn't written in local dialect (I had to edit it out of some the scripts to make them intelligible!)

In reply to Witkacy:

They can? Rocca isn't the Latin for rock, you know - that's, err, saxum, or something like that. I don't think rocca's Latin at all.

jcm

In reply to Dave Garnett:

"The Roaches, rising to 1,658 ft. (505 m.), were so called by 1358 and derive their name from the French roche, meaning a rock or a cliff." - English Placs-Name Elements, vol ii

From: British History Online
Source: Leek: Leekfrith. A History of the County of Staffordshire: Volume VII, M.W. Greenslade (Editor) (1996).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22915#fn
Date: 07/10/2004
© Copyright 2003 University of London & History of Parliament Trust

In reply to Anonymous:


Probably Romano-British though, with Celtic origins. (Roc)

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I must say re Roches/Roaches I don't really feel very strongly about it. It's a bit like arguing whether Strone or Stron Ulladale is correct (latter now seems to be the accepted spelling). Some place name changes I really do object to, like Cervinia for Breuil.

In reply to Anonymous:


I'm just quoting from OED, which says rock is derived from Old French rocque, in turn derived from medieval Latin rocca. Of course, they may have got their derivation wrong, in which case you should let them know.

In reply to Dave Garnett:
Does this mean we have to refer to those crags near Sheffield as Stan Edge and Burb Edge ?

In reply to Witkacy:

Oh OK. Medieval Latin's a different thing.

jcm

In reply to Kipper:

Thanks for that link, BTW, very useful for all sorts of things. Unfortunately, the brief mention of the age of the name is vague as to the spelling used, and I don't have the the Lichfield Diocesan Register handy.

In reply to Anonymous:

Yes, but it's very early medieval latin (767), as OED says, 'of unknown origin', though many (including myself) believe it has Celtic roots.

This website: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=16
for example has:

'from M.L. rocca (767), from V.L. *rocca, of uncertain origin, sometimes said to be from Celtic (cf. Bret. roch ).'

It is interesting to note in passing that the legendary bird, the Roc, was also spelled 'roche or roque'.

'Roc' in ""modern "" Irish means wrinkle, ridge, furrow - perhaps originally it was applied to a landscape to imply a 'rough area' ... rocca, 'roughnesses'??

I believe it was probably very similar to many other very ancient Celtic/european words like Pic (peak), stac, cnoc (hill), and craig or carraig (crag - in celtic the g pronounced virtually as a c)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Oh, I forgot to say - important point - that V.L. in the 'Online Etymological Dictionary' stands for Vulgar Latin V.L. 'the everyday speech of the Roman people, as opposed to literary Latin' - again implying something much older than medieval latin in origin.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

You really need a copy of English Place-Names Elements (Smith 1956) - I think it's the definitive source for this type of thing.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Hi Dave,

Dr J.D Sainter; Scientific Rambles Round Macclesfield (1878) believes that the 'Roaches' comes from either "ruck" (German) and oblong hill; or "hrigg", (Anglo-Saxon) a back or ridge. He was clever and yes I own a book called 'Scientific Rambles Round Macclesfield' and it's very good!! He also suggests that Doxy Pool gets its name from the Anglo Saxon "ox-pol" or the ox's drinking place.

Get that letter written I'll sign it with you, I think he's a bit strange anyway that editor!!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Yes - they've got the book in your local bookshop if you want a copy "A History of the County of Staffordshire: Volume VII
Leek and the Moorlands" These things cost £50-£75 though

In reply to Dave Garnett:

It's more fun than that :- ".. our local rocks to be named after a rather elegant, but simple French word, or a word associated with fish, or in latter days, the end of a cannabis cigarette. I think I know which one I prefer."

I think I know which one he's been using as well.