UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Hi Rich,

The one route I'm interested in in the Mont Blanc area is Divine Providence. I've got quite a bit of info for the actual route, but I've heard the approach is fairly gnarly. Do you know anything about it?

Cheers,

Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Thanks Jack. Yes ready to answer any qs on the exotic world of Alpine climbing. I will be working on the hill through April in Chamonix, hopefully climbing styrofoam ice couloirs... so should def. have some good conditions beta

Cheers

Rich

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hey Jack. Classic approach is Italy > Helbronner lift > approx 3 hrs to the Fourche bivouac hut on Maudits Frontier ridge, then drop in from there. Easy enough to here! Once you have dropped into the Brenva basin the gnarl starts - the dangers are fairly well documented and pretty obvious to see once you're there. Big seracs on the Brenva face around the Pear/Route Major etc threaten the approach across the glacier, plus of course the state of the glacier itself. Havent been on the route but seen plenty of serac activity from the summit of the Tour Ronde. An excellent viewpopint to go and get scared from! Cavey has done the route, and has a few things to say about the approach...

Dont hear of much activity over there generally, its def. a fairly wild place. One things for sure, its not a place to hang around and you would def want to recce the state of the seracs and best line through the basin from a good viewpoint beforehand.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hi Rich,

Since doing an Alpine guides course in 2005 in La Grave i've become fairly self sufficient on ice and plan to do more continental ice trips. I would however like to extend my experience to winter alpinism. Just a few questions on this:

- do i need to be able to ski?
- if so to what level
- where would you recommend....Cham is the obvious place i guess....any routes in particular
- what avalanche training would i need

cheers
Morgan

In reply to Rich Cross: Thanks Rich, I guess a trip up the Tour Ronde with a camera and binoculars is in order then. Might have to be next year, unfortunately.

Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hi Rich - what in your experience, is the most relevant difference between climbing in the European Alps (close to civilisation) and the more remote ranges?

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Hi morgan, good to hear from you - hope you had fun in the Ecrin this winter.

Skiing helps but you can snowshoe to many routes - just takes longer so reduces the range of stuff you can reasonably do in any given trip. Most stuff off the Midi is snowshoe friendly for starters. The Cosmiques hut is a good base finishing by a return on the Midi (its a long walk down the Mer de Glace!)

To use skis for approach your skiing needs to be very solid. You will be off piste, wearing a sack full of climbing gear, wearing touring boots, and it will be dark on the way in, and you will be knackered on the way out! All the things that conspire to make you fall over. So plenty of ability in hand needed really. If you can ski 'resort' off piste with a sack on then you'll probably just manage. Skiing def. the most fun option and worth investing the time in.

Cham is great for the access, quality and variety. All the obvious Tacul couloirs, back of the Argentiere glacier, Grand Montets area, Petit Jorasses - all good, with equiped rap descents. This is pretty crucial as winter/spring can make descent a tricky issue. Anything involving an over the top descent line is suddenly a lot more serious and logistically harder due to potential deep snow. Best to rap back to yr skis and slide to Cham that nite for beers!

Responsible attitude needed RE winter travel on skis. You will be operating as a self contained unit and both parties need avalanche kit - shovel, probe, transceiver - and should know how to use it! On snowshoes on a glacier you will be roped up so a very cautious approach is needed - both of you are likely to be caught if one is caught in a slide. Good assessment and safe travel techniques are supremely important to avoid double trouble. The snowpack generally gets more stable as the spring wears on, but warm wet slides are still possible, as are fresh slab releases after new snowfall, so having a good idea about past weather history is essential.

I would consider an avalanche course, or at the very least do as much reading as possible, and practice with the kit lots beforehand.

See ya out there maybe! cheers, Rich

In reply to Rich Cross:

Hi Rich,

as an experienced and respected mountain guide, could you ever forsee the situation where you would be forced to abandon an inexperienced novice behind with a wonky headtorch as night and death wound her icy grip around the bare mountain, while you would zig zag off down the mountain in order to get, say, your dinner, or a pint in the pub?

Niall Grimes,
Sheffield.

In reply to Niall Grimes: Niall, this is covered at length in the UKC Alpine handbook - available through me:

Chapter 2 'The Slow Partner'

"Abandonment of your partner is only recommended after the following steps have been taken:

1. Make sure you are carrying all of the expensive equipment...
2. Phone ahead to the pub to ensure they have a bar meal ready and waiting..
3. Ensure you have tried your best to chivvy them along: Shouting 'Mush Mush' whilst aggressively waving your ski pole is a recommended technique"

Back to serious mode (no more messing about from you Mr Grimes!):

Thanks again to Rich for agreeing to do this thread.

Morgan - I really struggled with the skiing on my recent Alps trip. I hadn't skied for 3 years, but previously I was a competent black run skier. I was over in the snow about every 10 seconds! The big pack made a huge difference, I found it pretty tricky.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
There are a few things that can make skiing a little easier when carrying all you climbing kit. Firstly only take the kit that you really need and pack your rucksack well so that it isn't towering over your head.
Coil your ropes in classic alpine coils and ski with them over your head and one shoulder(this keeps the weight of the rope around your body instead of on your back). Ensure your waist and chest straps are tight to increase the stability of your pack.
Also consider climbing in your touring boots so you are not having to waist precious time changing boots and then having to lug you climbing boots around in your pack.

In reply to Jon Bracey: Thanks Jon, good advice.

I did end up climbing in touring boots; after faffing with boot changes on one route I learnt my lesson!

Jack

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Hi Niall

Thanks for posing this thorny dilemma

Only if all of the below applied

1. they weren't paying me
2. they were painfully incompetent
3. the beer wasnt french
4. the food was french

look forward to climbing with you again soon Grimes

Is there a "Beginners hill" that you would tell everyone to visit on there first trip to the alps. what would be comparable terrain in the UK?, and what is the best time to visit?

In reply to KeithW:

Hi Keith. Most of the more remote ranges (north America/Canada apart) are higher altitude than European alps and thats significant - longer trips required to acclimatise properly, very hard operating at your upper technical limit, and generally harder work! plus of course even 'Alpine' altitude hills (<5000m)in remote areas eg some of alaska, canada etc have major differences to European cousins. No mobile coverage, no rescue service in many areas, difficult/long access. The commitment level reqd in places like this is totally different to climbing anywhere in the Alps. You need to climb in the good old fashioned way - you get yourself into it and you get yourself out of it!

In reply to Jon Bracey: I second Jon, Its all about climbing in Ski Boots. It seems to make ice a little easier but mixed a lot harder!

Generally they are stiffer and warmer.

In reply to Rich Cross:

Rich has resumed with brilliant concisions the access to the Brenva routes and Divine Providence. I hope he doesn't mind if I had couple of pedantic points that may be of interest on the topic

1) More than the Fourche bivy, the real "point of no return" is Col Moore. The trip up there is rather safe, and Col Moore is an excellent vantage point on the Brenva face. This said, the view from the Tour Ronde is aestetically more pleasing (because the face itself is less foreshortened

2) In the last few years, all Brenva / Grand Pilier D'Angle routes are getting more and more approached (by the three people who climbs them!) late in the afternoon / evening rather than early in the morning (obvious reason - it's an east facing wall!!). The common strategy is to bivy high enough to avoid objective dangers. (in case of DP, the spot where the route interesects the Bonatti Gobbi, for the Boivin Vallencant it may be at the top of the GPA!), then continue the next day.

Hope this may be of help, and apologies to Rich for the intrusion.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC & Rich:

thanks for the replies Rich and Jack for organising.....definitely useful having these sorts of "specials" on UKC.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Hi Luca. Thanks for the extra knowledge - great to get perspective from the locals! I'm always really interested to read your posts on conditions etc, and great to get input to the alpine forum from someone outside the UK mountaineering scene. see ya on the hill someday hopefully. Rich

In reply to g taylor:

Agree. Its a bit like climbing rock in big boots - just another skill that you need to develop. Using touring boots def. feels different to climbing ice in leathers or even plastics.

I enjoy climbing too much to make the trade-off, and dont mind skiing in plastics if it makes the climbing feel better - espec on technical mixed ground. But thats just me! Again, its another skill thats good to develop once you ski well enough.

In reply to antwan:

Hi. The Alps cover a vast area and there are loads of good hiils to cut your teeth on. The classic first time areas are obviously Chamonix, the Ecrin, the Swiss Alpine valleys such as Arolla and Saas Grund etc - all accessible and with stacks of info available in various guidebooks.

The best times to visit are around mid june to early sept. Weather can be variable through the summer, but as a GENERAL rule early season is snowier, mid season hotter and drier, end of season cooler and often very settled. August is busy due to European holidays so can be very crowded!

There are easy rock peaks in the alps, with non glacial approaches, but if you want to experience all the Alps has to offer you are talking about snowy peaks and glaciers with no UK equivalent. To supplement your UK walking/scrambling skills you need to learn some glacial travel and crevasse rescue techniques to cover this kind of ground safely.

As a first idea - the Moiry valley above Zinal (Switzerland) has some excellent beginners peaks, especially the Pigne de la Ley which is a simple rock scramble via the NNW Ridge from the Moiry hut. Exposed in places but easy scrambling in dry snowless conditions. Get the Alpine club guidebooks and have a good dig around.

Cheers

Rich

In reply to Rich Cross: OK I feel a bit foolish considering the high standard of questions asked to you so far, but quite simply I have a lot of indoor climbing experience some trad (lead upto S) outdoor experience and have done some galavanting around the mountains of North Wales but I really want to get into summiting large imposing mountains around the world. I'm reasonably fit but with regards to Ice climbing, glacier travel and general snow stuff, I know about as much as Tony Blair does about being a good Prime Minister. (ie F all)
Where do I start?

In reply to cc2703:

Hi. There are 2 ways to go. Get in with a group of like minded folk (climbing club etc) read some books, get the kit and go for it! Thats how I started - its a good laugh and you get into some scrapes but its cheap and the memories are good...

Or if time/climbing partners are an issue, and money isnt, fast track by doing a course. A skills based course will teach you the essentials, give you a good feel for some of the alpine areas, how to manage the logistics etc, and give you the confidence to venture out independently. Courses are also a good place to meet like-minded folk. There are lots of good course providers out there (including ourselves) on the net.

Have fun

Rich

In reply to cc2703: BMC Alpine meet?

In reply to Jasonic:

Yep. The BMC alpine meet is a great place to meet other climbers.

It does depend on your level of experience - if you turned up with just indoor climbing wall experience, having never worn crampons it might be tricky to find a partner for that first alpine route...

In reply to Rich Cross:

Hi Rich, I want to do some 4000ers in the Alps this summer, where is the cheapest place to base in the alps for a couple of weeks? Also I'm looking for some routes that have the equivalent of WI3 ice climbing on them as part of a big route.

I climb comfortably at VS level on rock and WI4 on Ice, I've done a lot of wild camping and hiking in Wales, Lakes, Pyrenees and the Alps and I'm gernerally fit. I've been to the Stubai Alps on one mountaineering trip but that was five years ago but don't remember much about the glacier travel/rescue technique.

Money is an issue, I was thinking of Grindelwald because it is quieter but heard the train up the valley expensive, I don't want to rent a car if I can get away with it.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hi Rich,

Just out of interest, when you first climbed in the alps did you employ a guide or learn the hard and scary way?

Also are you an advocate of climbing light and fast, or do you prefer the more British heavy and slow style of alpine climbing?

Cheers,

Tom

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hi Rich

The Frendo Spur... we are looking at climbing it this summer, we are expecting...
1 A very long days climbing moving together were appropiate to reach the bivy ledge up to about VS4c equivalent in places.

2 To be stupidly cold on the bivy, getting very little sleep and waking up feeling like s--t (love alpinism)

3 been scared on the snow/ice arete, but impressed.

4 then been scared and confused (and mildly impressed)about which way to take the rognon, left steeper but bolt belays the second may be hard to fine, right less steep but without bolt belays, through the rognon at about hvs equivalent ?

Any and all advice re route would be appreciated

In reply to RocknRoll:

Hi. If you want cheap dont go to Grindelwald. There are limited options for 4000m peaks unless you fancy lots of 5hr hut walks or using the Junfraujoch railway - which is incredibly expensive as you say.

Its harder to find reliable ice conditions in the summer these days due to warmer seasons than yester-year. So june or sept is a good time (or spring/oct)when its cooler. WI3 ice, or scottish 4 as part of a big route on a 4000m peak would normally equate to a TD 'Grand Course'. So you would need to feel pretty comfortable before embarking on something like this.

For classic 4000ers its hard to beat Saas or Zermatt valleys. Saas valley has more camping options, its possible to walk to some of the huts in a few hrs to cut costs, and its easily reached by swiss public transport from geneva. You dont need a car once there.

For more technical mountain ice I would go for Cham - the information on conditions is much easier to come by, and the routes are much more user friendly as a consequence. Many options in the sub 4000m range, with good rock and belays too. Not a great place for 4000m peak bagging tho. But it would be quite feasible to have a week in each place on public transport. The connections are pretty slick and not too expensive.

Cheers, Rich

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Hi Tom. My first time in the Alps I did a Conville course which was excellent. 3 days packed with survival skills and a good intro to the area. Highly recommended.

A few days later I must admit to doing the Gervassutti pillar in a ridiculously slow time - not quite in trouble but a bit too exciting at times. So both, a bit of instruction followed by lots of ambition induced fear!

I like the title of an old Andy Cave article, something like 'Fast Free Light and Lucky - aka Lost Lonely Fu**ed and Freezing'

Has to be every time

In reply to Rich Cross:


Should a competent and quick team be able to do the Gervassutti in day? Ie take the first midi bin up, climb the route and be back in time for the last bin?

Any tips for how a penniless climber should maximise their time in the alps?

In reply to shaun walby:

Hi Shaun. Great route. First day has a very distinct crux pitch at about VS, but good gear. Then around half dozen easier pitches, plus a couple of short pulls on fixed gear here and there (pretty obvious when you get there). Rest moving together.

The bivvy is massive and comfy, just down from the crest under a tower and easy to find.

The upper ice section is easy if snowy as there will be good footsteps, but you will need to dig for screws. It will feel much harder, more exposed and insecure in hot and dry conditions with more bare ice, but easier to protect. Been left and right but not straight up. I guided it last year and we went left, which was very straightforward (scottish 3 max) as the flanking serac was easy angled where it meets the buttress. Good gear on LHS and avoids a long tedious and exposed traverse under the rognon to enter the RH exit. Rognon would be great.

I took single rack of wires, 3 medium cams, 6 long extenders and lots of slings, plus 4 screws.

Have fun, Rich

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

That would be pretty fast. OK to make tea in the cosmiques hut but last bin would be good effort. Thats about 7 hrs actual climbing time for an 800m route.

Walk to all the huts, camp, hitch - the usual! save your cash for a few choice cablecars when you are fit at the end of the trip, arrive fresh and enchain a load of stuff from a high camp/bivvy. dont forget lots of red wine or you'll keep wanting to go down to the valley for beers!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Getting back up that ****ing snow arete after a hard day out, is an absolute ball buster.

In reply Rich

Thanks very much for the info, really appreciate that. Long may you reign sir.

regards shaun walby

In reply to Rich Cross:

Hi Rich,

I'd be grateful if you'd add your thoughts to this thread. I didn't post it just on here as I'd like other climbers to add their exspirences too.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=295014

Thanks,

Tom

Dear Alpine Doctor,

Having recently purchased some of those specialist boot clamps (a modern 12-point model), I was wondering what you thought about using these as a "brake" when bum-sliding down from major Alpine North Faces?

Also, a good friend of mine (who, how shall we say, is renowned for his economic prudence), has converted his old ice axe into a new leashless type simply by screwing a hose-pipe jubilee clip around the base of the shaft. Is this something that you would recommend? He swears by his cheap modification, but he does seem to get pumped rather quickly nowadays.

Thanks in advance

Nick Wallis
Sheffield

In reply to Rich Cross:
Hi Rich
Am hoping to climb the Gervusutti with Matt Dickinson this summer. Do you think we will beat the talented Mr Ripley on his 7 hour push?? Or will I not be able to get Matt out of the bar
Seriously though, what can I expect from the route, we intend to bivy and enjoy it. Late august so hopefully not too many storms!!

In reply to Rich Cross: Hi Rich, I'm out in Chamonix this summer and after getting on a couple of easier D's last year am planning to consolidate with more this summer. The D's I've done so far have been mixed/snow&ice and I've got my eye on some rock routes this summer such as the Grand Charmoz-Grepon traverse - in general are rock routes at this grade do-able in big boots with a bit of French free (if needed) or are stickies a better idea? (Appologies in advance for asking you to make a such gross generalisation!) Also any tips on the route itself? Particularly the best way off the Grepon - I heard there may be fixed ab stations onto the Nantillions Glacier but not sure if that's correct and I guess it would mean carrying a second rope? Cheers! Rob

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Hia again
Have thought of another question. I'm used to travelling on glaciers with 2 people on the rope. Now, with 3 people, what would be your recommended method of tying in the middle person. Have seen several different methods and have my own ideas. This person would be the least experienced in the group.
Cheers

In reply to Rich Cross:

Hi Rich , Was this you on summit of Mont Blanc with us back in '02?

http://picasaweb.google.com/the.champagne.mc/AlpsAugust2002/photo#514985024...

Regards IIM

In reply to liz j: No chance you'll never get Dicko out of le pub unless you tempt him with a kebab

In reply to adey:
I'll get him out of the Pub, no worries

In reply to Rob Dyer: Hi Rob

I havent been up there lately so not sure what the state of the Nantillons is like, and havent done the Charmoz Grepon traverse. Did the Cordier Pillar years ago and we rapped the line back to our sacks. Best off asking in the Guides office in Cham about the Nantillons. Know of a few teams who have had minor epics following the wrong line through the bottom buttress off the end of the glacier...

I find big boots are usually ok for big AD/AD+ traverse style outings. There is a bit of cheeky UIAA 4+ or so on the CG traverse so worth being able to climb a bit to get up it in big boots. Over most mellower ground big boots are great as you can motor with a light sack, then use the odd bit of fixed gear where needed as you say.

In reply to liz j:

Hi Liz

Sure you'll have a great time on the GP with Mat. Make sure he doesnt take his Game Boy with him for the bivvy or you'll have to do all the cooking..

Its a brilliant outing, sustained VS with a few harder pitches on excellent rock. Then either a direct finish up the grey tower or a quick rap into the gully on the rhs and a few pitches of easy snow, bringing you out close to the summit of the Tacul. Thats the way I finished after both the GP and the Supercouloir although the tower finish would be most aesthetic. Easy descent of the Tacul is a bonus. Dont underestimate the length tho! Have a great time

Rich

In reply to liz j:

For the middle person there are a few good methods. One most commonly used amongst guides is: Tie an overhand on a bight, so the bight forms a tail about a metre long. tie another overhand knot in the tail, about 10-15 cm from the first OH knot. Thread the end of the tail through yr harness and re-thread the second OH knot to tie on. Other good methods are a variation on this theme.

In reply to industrialiceman:

Hi

Yes it was! A while ago now. Hope you been gettin on the hill lots since. Was a good trip as i remember.

Cheers

Rich

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Just back from working in Cham through April - sorry for the delay in answering some of the qs. Been a tough month out there with hard conditions so not much time for cruising the net! Lots of snow on and off through April has kept the skiing in great shape - the touring season looks set to run till late this year. Climbing has been very tricky due to the massive quantities of snow and limited good weather breaks to settle things down.

Just for a bit of conditions info, some of the fun stuff we managed included valley cascades around Arolla (wont be there now!)the Cascade du Cosmiques (mixed nick and gets the sun but fine with an early start when we were there), Chere Couloir (great nick), Volgler Couloir off the flank of Cosmiques Arete, the Index from Flegere (fun mixed, alpine rock), a brilliant obscure gully in the Aravis Massif (down the valley from Cham between Bonneville/La Clusaz) called Aravicimes - 500m 3+/M4, and a load of good rock in Italy (sun always shines over there!). Other routes that were getting ascents near the end of april when things settled a bit were the classics Albinoni Gabarrou, Modica Noury, Goulotte Valeria etc off the Vallee Blanche. Many of the big ice faces were black ice, espec the Jorasses. There is just so much snow around that the gullies will probably give some excellent sport over the month to come. Enjoy

Rich