UKC

It would appear that a substantial number of climbers appear to think that the concept of finders keepers for abandoned gear on routes (as opposed to forgotten gear at the bottom etc.) amounts to theft, and the act of keeping it morally queationable.

Is this another example eroding ethics in modern times? Are these the same people calling for convenience abseil points on the Idwal Slabs and the like?

Should this ethic be included in training courses taken at climbing walls to try and reinvigorate original stance?

With reference to this thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=329334

In reply to Removed User:

Not really an eroding climbing ethic per se but more a changing social attitude and probably linked to the rising popularity of climbing. The larger a population gets the less 'friendly' it becomes on the whole. Compare life in a remote village where it would be rude not to greet your neighbour on sight to life in a city where you might be thought 'weird' for doing so.

I'm a relatively new climber and personally always try to reunite kit with owner by posting details on here. It's just the right thing to do. I also like to leave ab points as safe as possible for others and have left well rigged quantities of new tat / maillons / rap rings on various routes where it seemed more appropriate than the option of continually replaced single-use tat. Doesn't cost me a lot and I really appreciate it where others have done the same sort of thing.

In reply to Removed User:

Easy answer - no. And rather brain dead trying to draw it into the same argument.

In reply to quadmyre:


In other words "do unto others as you would like them to do unto you". According to some people that's unethical.

In reply to quadmyre:

That is commonly what is done here in Canada too. Very well said.

In reply to Chris F:
I've never lost any gear, me thinks.(ice axe in an avalanche) Why? cause I can't afford to replace it- so don't loose it. If you're leaving HMSs all over the shop, then you obviously don't mind if they go missing. Some one didn't return one of my ice axes, another nicer chap returned the other, I don't blame who ever found the other one, twas my fault for triggering an avalanche.

In reply to Franco Cookson: So you haven't lost anything other than stuff you have lost, and are grateful for having stuff returned, but don't mind if it doesn't get returned. Very helpful.

In reply to Chris F: I am on about ABANDONED gear not kit that was lost...

In reply to Removed User: yeh, I just meant I dont abandon kit. I knew if I said that someone would bring up my axes....... If you abandon gear, it is no longer yours.

In reply to Removed User: Tell that to Franco, he's the one going on about lost kit. Lost or abandoned, see quagmyre's response. Do unto others.

In reply to Chris F:

Tis the perfect welfare system. Those who leave gear, loose money (and can afford it) those who need gear will find it, and not leave theirs.

In reply to Removed User:


In what way is taking stuff that doesn't belong to you not theft?

In reply to Removed User:

Seeing as I'm one of the people on the other thread, I feel I should comment.

Firstly I should state that I learnt to climb the old fashioned way. I went out to the crags with whatever gear I could get and climbed. I read books and i got very scared. I have never been on a course.

My approach is to always attempt to return gear I find. I spent a long time being very poor and slowly building up a rack. Therefore my gear was very valuable to me, and yes I would spend hours retrieving it if stuck, but sometimes my inexperience or lack of skill or a bad situation would mean people are unable to retrieve something.

When I discover some stuck/abandoned gear, I will try to remove it, and I recognise that I haven't paid for it and someone else has so I make attempts to reunite said gear with owners.
In this modern age where mass communication is easy I cannot possibly see the harm in attempting to return gear by a quick thread on here. If no-one claims it then I keep it and use it. But the point is I tried. Before the internet this would have involved putting notices up or ads in the mags - obviously not worth it for a couple of nuts and a sling.

Where would you draw the line? The other day I was following a pair up a route on the east face of Tryfan. I came across a shiny abandoned nut. I spent a minute or two removing it (on lead), then gave it back at the next belay. The second was not an experienced climber so maybe hadn't developed the skills yet. Would you have kept it? What would you do if you saw someone drop a fiver? Would you wait until they had gone then collect it or would you give it back?
What about if a climber falls and is injured, leaving lots of kit behind. Would you go up and keep that too? What about gear left in situ deliberately(as with Dave McLeod's ab rope on Ben Nevis) - would you take that too?

And I have left gear after backing off a route, only for some much better climbers to climb the route after. I actually said to them that we had left gear in the belay and they could have it if they liked, as I recognised that gear was a small price to pay for my safety. However, we saw them in the carpark later and they gave back our gear. I didn't expect it, but the gesture was very much appreciated.

I know that gear I have returned has also been appreciated too. It just seems like a decent thing to do.

In reply to Removed User:

If you know the gear belongs to someone else e.g. as a result of a forum posting, not making any effort to return it is pretty scummy behaviour. I don;t think this is anything new, its just the internet has made it easier to locate the owner.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

That may be the case when you are pushing it on single pitch crags, but what about when you are on a hard multipitch and get into difficulty? You have to leave kit to survive. That doesn't mean you can afford to leave kit.

In reply to Monk:
We were climbing as a five in the alps. When we were hit by a rockfall, a (richer) friend promptly clipped a crab into a mallion and abed off, so he didn't have to thread the rope through. Everyone else left and ran away from the still falling rocks, as I unclipped the rope and began threading it through the mallion to save the crab. I'm not saying my approach is better, but i'd do almost anything not to leave gear. If I found an entire rack left down a route, I would seek the owner, but for a single nut/ crab/ sling I wouldn't.

In reply to Monk & Chris F

Spot on, I couldn't have put it better that you two have.

Making some attempt to get peoples kit back to them can't be an errosion of ethics over just shouting finders keepers.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

That's fair enough. I too try never to leave anything at all. I am just saying that sometimes you have no choice, that doesn't mean you can afford to lose the gear, although losing £20 worth of gear is better than dying.

In reply to Monk: yeh, fair enough. I would buy the man who returned my entire rack a fair few pints though.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You're a fool. In 5 years time your attitude will have changed.

oh - and if it was your mates crab did you give it back or keep it? By the OP's rules you should have kept it.....

In reply to Removed User: When I started opening Wild Side at Sella, I left all (17) my quick-draws on a project (Watermark 45m pitch 8b) for ease of getting the route done. They all got stolen (I see it as stolen). The question is does the person who took them see it this way? Thanks to DMM they replaced me with a new set. Mark (from a rainy Costa Blanca)

In reply to M. Edwards:

Poor show... I'll let others lambast the spanish over it.

When I was at Gandia we left a six pack of those coke tin size beers hidden under the car to stay cool. When we came back some pikey had nicked em.

We left them there becase they were literally worth 50p and we weren't surprised (I'm not that naieve and we had a spare pack in the car incase they did go) but I suspect the person that took them wouldn't normally steal. If they went to the shop I bet they would pay for them so why is it a different story when they're hidden under a car...?

In reply to several posters:

On the few occasions I've had to leave the gear behind I believe I am abandoning ownership. If someone tried to return to me a nut I'd had left behind I would encourage them to keep it, because I believe the gear is now, morally, theirs. Likewise, if I find - and can retrieve abandoned gear - I believe it is now, morally, mine.

This is just as reasonable an ethic, and just as defendable under the do as you would be done by principle, as the make-all-attempts-to-return-to-the-original-owner principle that some favour.

The finders-keepers rule for deliberately abandoned gear has the advantage, as Franco said, of transferring gear from the wealthy and lazy to the poor and keen, which makes the system, in my view, slightly fairer than the alternative. The finders-keepers rule of abandoned gear also accords more closely with the spirit of self-reliance that many find so important in climbing.

For this reason I am more likely to send a text thanking someone for the gear they gave me if I find a phone-number tagged piece of abandoned gear, than I am to be asking them for their return address.

Like others I have a completely different view about accidentally lost gear.

In reply to Removed User:

When I'm king I shall enforce the following rules:

Single piece of gear (nut, sling) with no-one around. Keep it - nobody's going to bother chasing that up anyway.

Multiple pieces, rack, rope, harness, boots, guidebook, single friend, climbers around - make an effort to return it.

In reply to petellis: maybe, when I get on 30K a year. I was actually pulled away by another friend as it was a bit more complicated than I made out and the crab was partially stuck. But on other occasions I have kept the gear when I got it out- I put the effort in/ risked my life, so tis fair me thinks.

In reply to Yonah:
>>

So by your's and Franco's logic, anyone who abandons gear is wealthy and lazy, and anyone who finds it is poor and keen? Such utter toss that it is actually fascinating to read.

In reply to Removed User:
Surely it's about being nice or not, isn't it?
I like climbing and generally I quite like climbers; I feel an affinity to them. I see no reason why I wouldn't want to reunite them with lsot or abandoned gear. I've certainly appreciated others kindess before and feel that it can only be a good thing. I accept, of course, that if I do leave stuff deliberately or accidentally I don't *expect* to see it again, but would never knowingly keep something of someone elses that I had come across without making a reasonable effort to reunite them. I've posted up on here for manky drilled nuts with battered thread I've found before now.

God knows, it's not like I need the kit...

In reply to Jon Read:

perhaps that is the difference. Without crag swag I only have 6 nuts and a couple of cams.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


... who had more than half a brain!

In reply to Chris F:

That sentence has nothing to do with my 'logic' Chris, but surely you would agree that the poor (and/or keen) will work harder at retrieving stuck gear than the wealthy (and/or lazy), leading to a tendency for abandoned gear to end up in the hands of the needy?

In reply to petellis: well he's a med student, so not too worried about a fiver.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

They generally only take straight A students on medicine courses don't they...? Might have more to do with it chap

In reply to Yonah:
Well said. The other advantage of the 'abandoned ownership' ethic is that it deters people from leaving gear all over the mountain. Adding abandoned gear to your rack is kind of like picking up litter, in my opinion.
Larger items accidentally lost, or items left with the obvious intention of returning to them, have not been abandoned and should be left alone / handed in / advertised as appropriate.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Where do you climb? I've got a 0.5 flexi friend and a small nut I'd love to leave for you to steal. They look absolutely fine but the first time you fall on them you'll get a big surprise and much-needed lesson in why you shouldn't steal gear you know nothing about.

In reply to niggle:

Good to see a truly moral being on this thread of reprobates.

In reply to Removed User: Maybe we all could hand in found gear to the BMC, they test it, and hand it over to mountain rescue teams, who can leave on the crags during rescue (found again by us... and the cycle continues!) Just a thought... Mark (still raining here )

In reply to Yonah:

Not in the slightest. Anyone could find themselves in an unfortunate situation (given WHATEVER the circumstance) and anyone could find themselves in the fortunate situation of being the next person to do that route. It has nothing to do with finanacial well being or eagerness.

In reply to thomm:

No-one intentionally abandons gear, it is just down to poor judgement / unfortunate circumstances / bad luck. And I'm not saying it should be left there if you are the next person to do the route, it is just a nice thing to do to at least attempt to re-unite the gear with the owner. But like Jon Reid said, I guess it is to do with your nature.

In reply to Removed User:

I see it as recycling - the bail kit I have found in the past has usually ended up being used by me to bail off some other route at a later date - usually old Krabs but sometimes wires etc too.

I have found stuff when there's no-one about to see who owned it so kept it and also found loads of stuff left in routes by the team in front to whom it was returned once everyone was off the route.

What really pisses me off is (and this has actually happened to me and a mate) when you have a major fall/accident which turns into a full on rescue with other climbers on the crag aware (they called the emergency services) of the seriousness of it but they still abb your route after your off on your way to hospital in order to nick the half a rack you had to abandon due to serious injuries. Robbing from someone seriously injured whilst they can't do anything about it - nice.

So there's a difference and judgment should really be made on the circumstances. If gear was left in extremis and you know who it belongs to then keeping it is deplorable. If you find a lower off Krab on a peg/bolt that has clearly been there a while and the crag is deserted at the time then keep it as your new 'leaver biner'.

PS if you left a black and gold 3000kg rated Stubai snap gate krab on the peg at the crux of Eastern Hammer in about 1986 then you can now find it on a route called Pousse-Cafe at a crag near Hotton in Belgium except I doubt its still there now.

In reply to Yonah:
surely you would agree that the poor (and/or keen) will work harder at retrieving stuck gear than the wealthy (and/or lazy), leading to a tendency for abandoned gear to end up in the hands of the needy?


This is the sort of rationalization that people have always tended to use to justify shitty behaviour.

In reply to Yonah:


No, don't agree at all. Wealthy people are some of the stingyest I know. Perhaps thats why they're wealthy!

I have also come across or known a good number of poor people who are downright lazy, and this is undoubtedly the reason they are poor.

By your reasoning, if my car breaks down and I can't get it towed away immediately it legitimately becomes swag for anyone who fancies it because clearly I am too wealthy to need it.

To the OP:

How can this sensibly be considered an erosion of ethics?

Common sense tells you its far more ethically correct to go slightly out of your way to return something to its owner than it is to keep it without a further thought!

In reply to Removed User:
Eroding ethics indeed.
In the good old days, a "crag swag" thread would be clearly labelled as such, so it can be easily avoided by anyone who can still remember the previous dozen threads on the subject

In reply to Toreador: heh heh

In reply to Toreador:

That's just Hardonicus going for the Daily Mail style headlines.

In reply to chris_j_s:



Then by your reasoning the hills would be littered with gear that climbers had left waiting for the original owners to return to pick up!

The point is that the abandoned gear transferral principle can be just as firmly defended under the 'do as you would be done by' principle as the alternative approach (try to return to original owner). I am not saying that either is more or less moral than the other. However, I favour the transferal principle because, despite what Chris F claims it is clear that there will be a tendency - however slight - for gear to move away from the lazy and/or wealthy under this system. Under the alternative ethic - try hard to find original owner - the gear will tend to end up in the hands of the lazy/cheats.

It should be clear to all, that while both systems can be defended morally, one is much more open to abuse (how can you cheat at the abandoned gear transferral game? Answer: you can't). Since an ethic is a practical response to a moral conundrum, it is surely rather obvious which approach we should adopt as a community. Only slightly obsessive - though well-meaning - adherence to the letter of the law is blinding you to this.

In reply to Yonah:


Huh? I don't think anyone is saying this. Us nice people remove gear, attempt to reunite it with it's owner, then use it or bin it if it is unclaimed.

In reply to Monk:

Aye - thats what I was thinking. The clearing up gear littering the mountains argument is a load of old tosh.

In reply to Removed User: Its stopped raining! I'm off climbing.... maybe I'll find some gear Mark

In reply to M. Edwards: Good luck sailor. Don't forget to put a post up on the lost and found when you do, otherwise it is theft and you will face the strong arm of the law!

In reply to petellis:

Cheers guys. Saved me typing the same thing. I was wondering if it was just me.

In reply to Yonah:


Nice attempt at law-talking by the way. Although the reasoning is flawed.

In reply to Monk and Petellis:

Sorry guys, I can see why you make this point, but if you read chris-s-j's post you will understand what I was getting at. He argued that my 'logic' could be extended to mean that a car that hadn't been towed away should become the finders property. In rejecting that 'extension of logic' I was just pointing out that I could just as easily extend his logic to absurdity: if we extended our behaviour with abandoned cars (ie waiting for the owner to sort them out) to gear in the hills we would end up with lots of gear littering up the hills, because, people do not return to a route specifically to have another go at extracting that recalcitrant nut.

In reply to Chris F:

I await your demonstration of this with interest.

In reply to Yonah: Your (apparent) reasoning being that you are faced with two apparent moral dilemmas - either "littering" or "theft" (both depending on perception). Meanwhile there exists a middle ground, taking said "litter" and returning it to the rightful owner who, through no fault of their own (other than being there in the first place) has (hopefully temporarily) had to use their "litter" in order to get off a cliff safely. Should you go up the same route after them, and be in a situation fortunate enough to remove their gear I (and a few others) feel it is only right to at least attempt to return this gear. Personally it would weigh on my conscience if I didn't do so, but then that is just me.

Is this getting through?

In reply to Chris F:

Hi Chris

Let's be nice to each other. I can see that you're not a bad person. Perhaps I can convince you that I'm not a bad person either, despite having a different approach.

In a perfect world lost gear would find its own way back to its owner. We do not inhabit such a world. The moral concern is that fairness should prevail with regard to the ownership of lost property. I suggest that the ethic we should adopt to abandoned gear should be the one the maximises fairness.

Your approach - thouroughly moral - is as follows: try to restore the gear you find to its original owner. Result: sometimes you find the orginal owner, sometimes you don't. This system would works fine so long as everyone tries to make the same amount of effort to find the original owner.

The problem is that some people are cheats, who will try to cheat any system. If the prevailing ethic is the one you espouse, then cheats will profit, because they will simply keep/sell all gear they find, whilst having their own lost property returned to them.

Because I am at heart concerned with fairness I therefore reject this system under which cheats prosper and honest folk lose out.

I suggest to you instead that the sensible approach to the moral issue is the finders-keepers ethic (where gear has been abandoned). It is not possible to cheat at this system, and over time all individuals will gain, roughly speaking, what they lose. Those more prone to abandoning gear than average will slightly lose out of course, but at least that is through their own actions and choices.

So I ask you, which ethical system is fairer?

I understand the qualms your conscience is giving you, but if the community as a whole adopts the finders-keepers ethic then your conscience should be entirely clear. In a sense the reason you have those pangs of conscience is that our community has not entirely agreed on the functional ethic, yet. You conscience inclines you to err on the kinder side (return gear when you can) and it is a credit to you, but your kindness and the concerns of your conscience are ultimately helping to sustain an ethic that helps cheats to prosper.

In reply to Yonah:

I really like your reply. Fantastic, and logical. However, I am still going to try to return gear. I guess this probably makes me a loser in your system, but I have enough gear already.

Also your logic falls down as not everyone climbs equally as often or with the same gear removal/not abandoning skills. Therefore your system favours those who climb more often (more likely to find the gear if you climb 3 times a week than once a month) and with a higher skill level (less likely to lose gear in the first place) or more cautious climbers (not likely to start a multipitch route that is near their limits so won't have to abandon). I suppose that this system is capitalist. The more skilled you are, and the more time you put in, the more you win. Unfotunately some of us are more left leaning so still won't agree with your system as it favours the strong over the weak.

In reply to Yonah: So you are essentially saying that, in a situation where there is no existing law or policing, we should all drop our moral standards to those set by the lowest common denominator? I would rather allow the cheaters to prosper from my good nature than do that.

I personally have very rarely abandoned / lost / left my own gear (mostly backing up abseil points) and found loads that has been left / lost / abandoned in my climbing career.

In spite of my best attempts to do the right thing and get the gear back to the rightful owner, I still have most of it, and I have a clear conscience that I ahve done my best to get the gear back. I have on one occasion had lost gear returned to me, was extremely greatful and rewarded the guy with several beers, and in all occasions feel better about myself and mankind in general when it happens.

In reply to Yonah:
>

<snort> Do you also reject other such systems, perhaps to do with passing exams, or paying taxes?

"grateful"

In reply to Monk:


Good reply Monk, you have some valid points. I applaud your generosity with gear, and at heart I admire your approach.

However the climbing more often point is not valid: the more you climb, the more you find, but equally the more you lose.

With regard to skill level, I'm not sure. It could work the way you suggest, but it might be that the more skilful/experienced you become the bigger the challenges you tackle, and the more gear you end up abandoning?

With regard to left-leaning, I can assure you that I am very firmly in the left-leaning camp. One bonus of the system I suggest is, as I said earlier, it should tend to concentrate gear in the hands of the more needy, given that they will work harder to keep their gear, while the wealthy will more readily abandon theirs (although I recognise that some have suggested that it may not work this way).

However, what we can be sure of is that under finders-keepers those who make a profit or loss will at least be responisble for that profit/loss. Under the other system cheats will be responsible for your loss.

In reply to niggle:

I read your reply, but I noticed it had very little content.

In reply to Yonah:

Of course here's the fatal flaw in your argument (apart from the fact that you're a thief):

If you don't know whose the gear is, how do you know it's abandoned?

And if you do know whose it is, why don't you give it back?

In reply to Chris F:

Yeah, that's fine Chris. You'll notice I'm not criticising you as an individual for your approach, I am merely pointing out the problems with the system you espouse as a whole.

You suggest that adopting functional ethics may lower our overall ethical standards. But I don't think I am lowering any standards when I say to the peice of gear I abandon: best of luck to your new owner.

In reply to MG:

Probably. Some are easier to deal with than others though.

In reply to Yonah:

Are the any laws you do intend to obey?

In reply to niggle:

Some content along with the abuse this time.

I make an educated guess, and expect others to do the same when they find my abandoned gear. In short, I do as I would be done by.

In reply to Yonah:

Indeed not, but are you lowering your standards when your first thought on finding gear on a route is "yoink" and you have no intention of returning it.

As I said, I am definitely in the credit based on the finders keepers system, but I am in no way condoning it.

In reply to Yonah:


Educated based on what? You admit that you don't know whose it is, so how can you possible know where they are and what they intend?


Of course, you don't: you steal other people's gear when they're not around. I seriously doubt you want that to happen to you, much as you may deserve it.

In reply to MG:

It's a fair question. I intend to obey most laws I think, but I won't necessarily commit myself to obeying every law. The law is not always the best possible law, and democracy may not always allow its adjustment. Can you give me an example of one you think I shouldn't obey according to the principles I have, perhaps rashly, set forth?

Incidentally are you suggesting that picking up abandoned gear is against the law?

In reply to Yonah:

Prahaps we all need to read some very easily accesible articles to understand how the law / generally accpted morality in the UK works. Good old wikipedia provides detail on just this subject*.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_mislaid,_and_abandoned_property

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finders_keepers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft


*I hate trotting out the usual wikipedia link but it's just so easy isn't it.

In reply to Yonah:

But you think you are a much better judge of this than parliament and the courts.


Almost certainly if you do not make reasonable attempts to locate its owner, although I am not lawyer so may be wrong.

In reply to Yonah:

All your suggestion does is bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. Just because not everyone shares the same morals doesn't mean the rest of us should abandon ours. If we did that, then the world would be a very shitty place indeed.

In reply to Removed User:

If I'm willing to spend 20 minutes hanging from an abseil rope fiddling about to get a poorly placed, stuck cam that's just out of reach when standing on the ground at the bottom of 20 Foot Crack at Burbage North, then I reckon I have a choice of whether to keep it or try and return it to its owner.

Cheers.

PS I kept it....

In reply to Lurkio:

......having first made a reasonable attempt to establish whether it has been lost, mislaid or abandoned. Unless you have developed amazing powers that the rest of us haven't, then you have no way of knowing, so you should assume it's lost or mislaid.

In reply to MG:

From the Wiki articles above - the finder can keep the object if it is left where the owner left it (say, jammed half way up a pitch) but its condition shows that the owner has had no intention of coming back to retrieve it. It doesn't mention anything about trying to locate the rightful owner.

I suspect the whole argument would boil down to what condition one might expect an abandoned wire or sling to be in. My own personal view of when I have abandoned something when climbing is when I've moved on to do something else. On a multipitch route this means when I've told my second to give up on it and chosen not to abseil down myself to have a go (or indeed have a go). If I were being followed by another party who got it out I'd think it polite of them to return it, but if they don't then in a way they have it because I haven't had the patience or skill to retrieve it myself. On a single pitch route its once I've abbed down, tried to get it out, and given up in frustration.

I imagine that if someone were ever to actually try and prosecute for this it would get nowhere due to the difficulty of proving that the finder knew it was not abandoned. For something to be theft, you have to show evidence of a dishonest mind or dishonest intentions, and the counter argument I suppose is that the removal of gear left abandoned is innocent in its nature.

AJM

In reply to AJM:



I suspect the opposite - the finder would have to prove they reasonably thought it abandoned - but it is hardly matters as it is likely to happen. Posting on here to see if anyone owns something you find is just good manners. Not responding to a post asking if anyone has found something when you have is really crappy. Probably nine times out of ten or more you will getto keep what you find anyway.

In reply to MG: *un*likely

In reply to niggle:


This is true. That's why when you find something lying around then you should give it back. However if you work to remove an abandoned piece of pro from a route then you have earned it as you've spent your time and skill to benefit climbers who are will do the route in the future. You can tell if something is abandoned because quite simply if no-one is there trying to remove it or preparing to remove it then they've left it.

Kane

In reply to Kane:

You're forgetting the important distinction between "mislaid" (deliberately left there, owner does intend to come back for it) and "abandoned (deliberately left and owner has no intention of retrieving it).

There are many time when the next climber up the route would not be able to tell. If the gear's obviously been there for yonks, you'd probably be safe to assume it's abandoned (but you still can't be absolutely certain). But if it's not been there long then you shouldn't assume it's abandoned cos there's still possibilty that the owner may be coming back for it. You have to give them a reasonable chance.

In reply to MG:

I suspect actually that both sides would end up arguing and the courts would end up having to make a decision somehow, which would be the tricky bit.

I suspect there's precedents for normal things like cars, ships etc but I doubt for small personal possessions that have become stuck there is any kind of precedent as to what the circumstances in which you would consider it lost rather than abandoned are.

Or indeed small personal possessions that have been deliberately left in situ where identifying whether they mean to return is near impossible, like a bailout anchor with no visible owners - I doubt to be honest that there'd be any question that a bailout anchor is abandoned, since leaving it behind is a part and parcel of abseiling of it.

Once you've determined that it is in fact lost rather than abandoned though, to prove theft you would need to prove guilty intent on behalf of the finder - difficult to prove guilty intent in a situation where the status of the item is disputed - you essentially have to prove that the finder knew it was not in fact abandoned as they claim in order to prove the guilty intent required for theft.

AJM

In reply to Becky E: I agree with giving them a reasonable chance, however they should try and remove it as soon as possible. Normally it's quite easy to tell if someone has just left a piece because it's stuck or if they have had an incident and had to bail. If they have left it because it's stuck then there's no reason for them not to remove it straight away.

In reply to Becky E:

Hi Becky
I'm not sure what makes you think I have abandoned morals? I am merely advocating a 'do as you would be done by' system that works over a 'do as you would be done by' system that doesn't. I suppose one's veiwpoint on this matter may come down to whether you think our ethics are for the benefit of our own immortal souls, or for the benefit of people here on earth. I am in the latter category.

In reply to Removed User:

…stretching this topic as more ethics of how to abandon gear... I’ll not name the climb – let’s just say an easy Almscliffe crack and a renowned sandbag for those even worse than me at jamming.

Last climb of the evening. A friend repeatedly spat off it jams in his brand new cam. Still can't give up and eventually gives up in disgust to barely muffled mirth of onlookers. But feck it’s pub time.

The cam however won’t come out. Really won’t come out. Everyone has a go but no one wants to lose skin off knuckles for someone else’s cam. Combined tactics get the increasingly cross original leader up there. But the combined anger of failing on the climb, losing skin and £45 is just not enough to shift that cam. And like I say, pub time. So he gives up, but not before grabbing a rock and hammering it in as far as it’ll go so no other bugger’s getting it...

Needless to say it’d gone next time we were there.

Ethically I guess we should’ve left a note: ‘whomsoever can withdraw this cam from its stone can possess it and its power.’ Or something.

In reply to AJM:


Actually it wouldn't be tricky at all.

The person who takes it has to be sure that they have a right to do so. If they're not sure then they should leave it alone since it doesn't belong to them. And the best way to be sure that it's okay to remove it is to ask the person who it does belong to.

Same again: if you don't know who it belongs to, how do you know it's abandoned?

And if you do know, give it back.

All this nonsense about ethics and souls is just a smokescreen: if you take other people's stuff without asking, you are a thief, pure and simple. A lowlife, a scumbag, an arsehole and a prick.

Don't like it? Don't steal other people's stuff then.

In reply to Yonah:
I suppose one's veiwpoint on this matter may come down to whether you think our ethics are for the benefit of our own immortal souls, or for the benefit of people here on earth. I am in the latter category.



I would suppose you can allow yourself a wry smile as you get your teeth kicked in by a mugger. If only you had thought to do it to them first....

Do as you would be done by B**locks..... Anarchy rules !!! you tit :0D

In reply to Removed User:
If it is possible to return gear, without too much effort (effort being appropriate to the amount found), then I would. For instance if you found a single nut on route and there were other climbers around then I would ask if anyone had lost something. I probably wouldn't post notices in shops on forums etc. If I found a rucsac full of kit (but no address) then I would go to more effort to trace the owner.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Fran,

I had just found that krab. I'm more than happy to abseil of nuts and krabs that I have found. I find loads so I'm more than happy to abseil off one rather than risk my life. I have the same attitude with wires too. I'll always make the effort to remove a stuck one, but have no qualms if I have to rap off it later.

Kit is cheap as chips and you find loads of it, but you've only got one life.

Saything that I've only ever abandoned tat in the uk.

In reply to Lurkio: My friend spent about 40 minutes abbing down and then removing one old nut with a kitchen knife last weekend. Good times. Must get a nut key sometime.

In reply to Yonah:

Surely the majority is here;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/i.php?f=4

A lot of people who have found kit are more than happy to try and return it to its owner.

In reply to Chris F:


I think most climbers are like that really.

That's part of what makes yonah's point so utterly farcical: he think's he's in the najority when in fact people who steal others' gear and expect their own to be stolen in some kind of weird reverse karma are - well let's call them 'unusual' shall we?

In reply to the crag pirates:

Assuming you regard abandoned gear as 'booty' (which I generally do), where do your ethics lie on splitting the treasure?

In my first experience of this conundrum, having spotted a stuck nut on Fisher's Folly my partner eagerly proclaimed "I'm glad it's your lead, I think that's the same size as one I sot last week.." I, personally, see no problem with this since, on lead I'll probably just clip it and leave him to struggle getting it out. He puts in the nut-key time so he gets the reward...

Do you guys think that booty should be left with the 2nd or would you feel cheated leading past some prime booty and not getting it?

In reply to Removed User: If you're the Hardon I think you might be you'll know the partner in question... Fatty Woods. If not, never mind...

In reply to wilbobaggins: I usually let Fatty Woods at it cos he doesn't have much gear the poor lad.

Generally though if the booty is prime, I'll have 15 minutes at it first!

In reply to Yonah:

Yonah, your version of fairness could (in extremis) be extended to suggest that it's ok to go round shooting each other, cos if you shoot someone then you'll get shot soon enough too. That's perfectly fair, but generally considered to be a bad thing.

Acquiring gear by your methods isn't as extreme as that, but keeping up with the "little" morals is important to prevent the world sliding into a horrendous every-man-for-himself situation.

In reply to Removed User:

So how is that an erosion of morals it seems to me an upholding of morals - returning someones property rather than keeping it?

In reply to Removed User:

It may be better to turn the argument in its head. When do people consider that they have abandoned gear, or do all the 'anti-booty' posters intend to go back and retrieve their stuck gear eventually?

Personally, if I've left gear on a route and left for the day then I consider that I've abandoned it. If I've left it it's because I've decided for whatever reason (ineptitude, desire to get to the pub, danger) that it's not worth the effort and if someone else can get it out they're welcome to it. So far I've never gotten gear stuck but I've left krabs on in situ tat so I can escape safely - TBH it never even occurred to me to want/expect them back. I'd far rather my left gear was on someone else's rack and being used than sitting in a crack, or extracted and put to one side, because other climbers were expecting me to go back and retrieve it.

In reply to climbingpixie:

I have name tags on my gear.

Is it okay to steal it, since anyone finding it can (and does usually) get in touch?

In reply to niggle: Just back from climbing... and yep! I found a brand new quick-draw half way up a route. It was hanging off an already established route, so not a new project, and I suspect not one someone is working. Nobody returned for it by night-fall, and nobody was at the crag either. I'm here in the Costa Blanca... what happens now? Do I just keep it (I have no need for it) OR hopefully someone will post on here if its theirs... Suggestions welcome, and criticism if you think I should have left it on the crag... Mark

In reply to M. Edwards:

If you have no need for it and no one claims it, the 'people's dispensary for sick franco's' will happily take it off your hands.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I'll keep it in mind Mark

In reply to Removed User:

Several posters on this thread seem to be confusing ethics and morals. The current ethic says gear abandoned on route is booty, regardless of 'morals'.

We currently have a no-bolt ethic on most UK rock, maybe morally we should place bolts in dangerous routes to reduce peoples risk of injury?

My concern is that a lot of people don't seem to understand the current ethic.

In reply to niggle:

If you have any specific evidence to show that the onus is on the finder to prove that they don't know whose it is, and that it has definitely been abandoned then do let me know, otherwise I can only assuming you're frothing in outrage baselessly.

By your reasoning the entire common law basis of abandonment is null and void since no-one could take anything because abandonment isn't possible - you're either coming back for something, or giving it to the other person.

There are a number of situations where you can take someone else's stuff without asking and not be a thief in the eyes of the law. To claim otherwise is simply either bluster or letting your ideas of morals and ethics supplement what the actual law is.

AJM

In reply to Removed User:There can be a good moral reason to retrieve gear from Cornish sea cliffs... the gear rots within weeks! If its a wire, the nut explodes(not literally) within the crack and stays long after the wire has corroded away. Friends (cams) are just as bad, and tapes degrade too. So there is a moral reason to remove this gear primarily on safety grounds. I have to say, the gear I do find is stuck, and left by the second. Mark

In reply to niggle:

That's a good idea. If I found gear with a name tag and contact number/email address I would contact them.

Most of the time gear is returned by next time of meeting arrangement or post if small.

But suppose you found a whole bunch of nuts all with the same address and it was 200 miles from your location would folks stump up postage for return or ask for SAE? What are peoples protocols for returning gear?

In reply to Removed User:

Several years ago a friend (Luke) took a bad lob of a route in Pembroke. The second had to ab’ into the sea and swim for it leaving a blood soaked Luke hanging in his harness. Luke couldn’t be reached by chopper, so much fun was had by myself and others trying to get him back out. Afterwards the coast guards went down the cliff and got all our gear back. They gave us the kit back (point 1).

The coast guard had wrapped our ropes etc in a sling and clipped it all together with a screw gate, which when we unclipped it snapped in two. This was the screw gate Luke had hung from for three hours, the second had rapped on and I had used as a power point to get help get Luke out. If it had snapped earlier we would have all died.

(Point 2.) Luke had “found” the screw gate on a route earlier in the year.

So, be careful with gear you find. You won’t be the only one hanging off it.

(PS. The BBC made a short film about it for their 999 series.)

In reply to petellis:
Please dont assume that Spanish climbers were guilty of this.
In my experience this would be an extremely rare occurence.

In reply to Removed User:

No YOUR current ethic. MY current ehic is to try and return any gear I come across (by whatever means) to its rightful owner.

In reply to Chris F:

No the ESTABLISHED ethic.

I think it's great that people want to try and relocate lost gear with their owners, however those that don't should not be marginalised and maligned.

In reply to Removed User: This argument is going nowhere. I do not agree that it is an established ethic.

In reply to Removed User:


Of course they should: they're thieves. There's nothing unfair about marginalising scum who steal others' belongings, in fact it's normal and healthy.

In reply to Chris F:
I agree, I don't think there is an established ethic.

Do those who confess to deliberately keeping found stuff apply this to other areas of life? If you found a bag on a train, or some shopping in a car park? Or a nice pen in the library? What about the windscreen wipers and wheels on that car that's been parked in the same spot for 3 weeks -- it must have been abandoned, right? Perhaps I have a lack of imagination, but I can't really why you would treat things differently just because it's climbing gear.

Is it that you think you need more gear?
How can you assume it's been abandonded?

In reply to Anonymous: Don't worry about it mate, I've got plenty of climbing partners!

In reply to Removed User: Better send out a warning to watch their wallets!

In reply to niggle:
>


This thread is about removing gear abandoned in a route.
Any one with any real climbing experience in this country knows that it is normal to take out abandoned gear if you can. If the owners are still at the crag I am sure 95 per cent of peope would return this gear directly to them, if they are not and you have no idea who they are then you do what you like with said gear.
If we are entering a new era of actively seeking original owners (with the advantage of internet forums etc) then thats great by me, but please understand that by calling people "arseholes" and "pricks" you simply come across as an idiot.

In reply to Jon Read:

Bag on a train- likely to contain valuables, almos certainly lost and not abandoned so a different case to climbing gear. Shopping, same again.

>Or a nice pen in the library?

Depends on value, biro-probably abandoned, mont blanc porbably lost.

>What about the windscreen wipers and wheels on that car that's been parked in the same spot for 3 weeks -- it must have been abandoned, right?

vlaue of car- hundered or thousans of pounds therefore unlikely to be abanoned.value of climbing gear, a few quid. More likely to be abandoned.

But then what do i know, im just a dirty scumbag with no morals.

In reply to remtherockclimber: How about a £10 pen? or £10 worth of shopping? someting the same price as a nut and 'biner?

In reply to Chris F: depends on your judgement.

In reply to niggle:

Take it easy there, niggle. I'm sure you're a decent guy, and perhaps you don't realise that you're coming across as somewhat aggressive? It seems that you have a rage not solely related to the issue at hand which, let's face it, is rather inconsequential. I feel your pain and all, but it would be nice if you could turn it down a bit.

In reply to martin heywood:

Personally I am not pointing the finger of blame at any one nationality or even person. I believe it was a chance theft, because the crag was not in any guide book at the time (I had just named the crag) and not many knew of the crag either. But I guess all those quick-draws... just to much temptation for someone. At that moment the area lost its innocence, and a degree of trust was lost within the climbing community for me. I clear all my projects now... Mark

In reply to Becky E:

Dear Becky.

I think you are mistaken in this view. If I were concerned to give the finders-keepers ethic a hard sell I should of course have given it a better name, because I notice some people can’t help but find themselves drawn to the negative aspect of the system: the bit they call thieving, and the bit that they are keen to lambast me about. If I were clever I would try to re-focus their attention on the positive aspect of it, namely that whenever gear is abandoned it becomes a gift. A gift to the brotherhood of climbers. Does leavers-givers sound any better? Because while you may call me a thief I am also freely giving.

So I simply do not accept that I am somehow failing to keep up with “little morals”, and I share with you a horror of an every man for himself world. What I don’t understand is why you think my communitarian (one might even say “everyman”!) approach could lead in this direction. In my view it is the slightly obsessive claim of ownership over a particular shiny item that has more of an every man for himself aspect to it.

In reply to climbingpixie:
>> Personally, if I've left gear on a route and left for the day then I consider that I've abandoned it. If I've left it it's because I've decided for whatever reason (ineptitude, desire to get to the pub, danger) that it's not worth the effort and if someone else can get it out they're welcome to it. So far I've never gotten gear stuck but I've left krabs on in situ tat so I can escape safely - TBH it never even occurred to me to want/expect them back. I'd far rather my left gear was on someone else's rack and being used than sitting in a crack, or extracted and put to one side, because other climbers were expecting me to go back and retrieve it.


Dear climbingpixie,
How nice to hear a calm and balanced voice on this thread of weird and slightly shrill moralists (possibly including myself)! I think the process of gear exchange through finders-keepers (which in effect happens whether you make attempts to find the previous owner or not) has something beautiful about it. I like to think of gear that used to be mine going off on its journey with a new owner (hopefully younger, poorer and baver than me, but I’m not fussy). One day perhaps my former gear will save someone's life. Equally it gives me pleasure to recall where and when I found a piece of gear when I take it off the rack to use it, particularly if I’m with the person I was climbing it with when I found it. “Do you remember…?”.

The process of gear exchange enriches climbing, and it seems to me it would be better for all if we’d stop being tortured by our consciences about it (nice people like Chris F) or finding in it an excuse to abuse others with ridiculous inflation of the perceived offence (slightly less nice people) and simply get on with a fair and practical ethic that treats everyone more or less as equals, allows the pleasure and removes the guilt/pain.

In reply to remtherockclimber:

Precisely.

In reply to Yonah:


No no, the posts are meant to be agressive all right. That's what happens when you boast about how you steal other climbers' gear: maybe if you quit being a thief and you won't deserve to be treated like one.

In reply to niggle:

Dear niggle
I'm afraid to say I detect something of the Pharisee about you on this matter. You trumpet your noble efforts to return gear to its rightful owner, and you shout even louder about the perceived thievery of others. Yet what does it all amount to? Your actions result in the same as mine, you lose some gear and you gain some gear. But wait...



How nice for you that everyone who finds your gear knows who to return it to. Tell me, how often is the gear you find name-tagged? I bet you're ahead of the game on gear amassing, eh?

In reply to niggle:

Try to focus on the giving aspect as well as the taking aspect. Is it really such a great crime?

In reply to Yonah:


If someone invests the time and effort, surely they should reap the rewards, as you and others pointed out earlier?

In reply to Jon Read:

Dear Jon
I agree that the ethic is not that clearly established, which I think is a shame, for reasons that I have mentioned above.

However, I do not attempt to extend this ethic into other areas of life, because it is not well-suited to many areas. It is however, peculiarly well-suited to the climbing situation, which is why it is as widely recognised (and adopted) as it is, despite being heavily criticised by those with a rigid moral framework.

Do we agree that if you can’t be bothered to retrieve gear at the time, you probably won’t go back for it? If it’s on a handy local crag, why didn’t you go back for it at the time? If it’s on a remote, multi-pitch crag, you probably won’t go back that way for years, if ever. Meantime, in situ gear rots and is ugly and generally unwanted by the climbing community. Thus gear left abandoned needs to be removed.

So the question is: what do we do with it? One option which some people like is to make all efforts to find the owner (this only works effectively if everyone has named tags, and even then is still easily abused by cheats). Another would be to donate it to a mountain rescue team: nice idea, but again, it is not robust against cheating. The only robust ethic for dealing with the situation that I can think of is a finders-keepers system, which cannot be cheated at and is, in effect a pooling of the climbing community’s gear. It is fair, robust and communitarian, and it encourages the cleaning up of crag litter. It’s also fun. There is no dimunition of the do as you would be done by ethic, at least not, if like many, you happily abandon your gear to a new owner if you have to leave it behind (or simply can’t be bothered to make sufficient effort to extract it).

It is very simple to apply, and has very clear boundaries: you'll notice that all espousers of the ethic on this thread agree that it does not apply to gear left at the foot of the crag (probably forgotten or not abandoned), or gear that was simply dropped (and probably therefore just lost). Likewise it does not apply to the other examples you mention, the reason being that you can’t reasonably assume that the item in question has been abandoned, and that there are people on the shop/train/library/carpark/roads whose job it is to ensure that the items are returned to their owner if possible. There is no such policing of the crags, so the community must do it itself.

It's a practical response to a practical issue. In many ways it is also a natural response, because it is widely adopted by many who have never bothered to rationalise it as I have. But I recognise that it does not enjoy full support and probably never will.

In reply to Yonah:


No, I don't take things that don't belong to me. If they're in the way I put them neatly to one side so that the owner can pick them up.

See, I pay for my own gear. That's part of the pleasure of climbing for me, the fun of building a rack, slimming it, modifying it for different conditions and so on. I doubt I'd enjoy climbing so much if I knew that my enjoyment came at the cost of stopping other climbers from enjoying it the same way.

In reply to Chris F:

Good point Chris!

In reply to niggle:

Don't you see that I feel exactly the same way?

In reply to various:

I'm surprised the amount of people on this forum pushing the 'booty' argument.

By definition if you're on this forum you will have seen there is a 'lost & found' section. You cannot argue that it is at all difficult to at least attempt to return gear to owner via that. Sure in times past it would have been less trivial but these days with forums, email, mobile phones etc there's really no excuse not to.

Using UKC represents you joining a (inter)national community of climbers with all the benefits of shared knowledge, route info, beta, hints and tips, feisty discussion etc that entails. It's a wonderful thing that could never have happened outside of the modern communication era. In a way it makes the world a bit smaller again allowing us to talk to climbers we would never have met without it.

If you want to live in the past where it would have been impossible to identify the owner of lost gear therfore such gear would automatically be considered 'booty' then please go the full hog and also surrender your UKC account. You can't have it both ways.

In reply to quadmyre:

My response to that is that while the improved comunications make it easier to return gear to the original owner, the system of trying to reunite gear is still open to cheats.

I'm getting bored of saying this, but the finders-keepers ethic, if you think it through, really is the fairest.

In reply to Yonah:


No, actually I don't.

You deprive other climbers of their right to enjoy climbing by stealing what they need to do it: the fact that you imagine yourself to be "generous" and "giving" by leaving gear for other unrelated people is irrelevant conscience-salving on your part.

I provide my own gear for my own climbing. Unlike you I don't demand that other people buy gear for me to steal and use. In fact I don't need to lower myself to that precisely because I buy my own stuff.

Why don't you get a job or something and stop sponging off other people? You'll enjoy using your own gear more and you might even get a shred of self-respect as well as respect for others.

In reply to Jon Read:

I don't know about an established ethic but certainly there was a long-standing practice that said that gear that seemed genuinely abandoned was fair game to anyone who could retrieve it. As someone who considers themselves rather puritanical about returning lost property in other circumstances, I'm slightly surprised at my own attitude about this, but I think it's somewhat equivalent to the ethics of marine salvage.

It's also something to do with taking responsibility for your failures on the crag. One of the possibilities when you are pushing yourself is that you might end up retreating and abandoning some gear, or that because of the situation a second isn't able to hang around to get jammed gear out. Often, it would be possible to abseil for the gear but the decision is made that it just isn't worth the time and trouble. In these circumstances, it seems to me that it's fair enough that someone more competent who does the route successfully is entitled to keep anything they find on it. It's rather an odd concept these days, but it's about acknowledging your limits and giving the other guy best.

Of course, the code works the other way round too. If a group of beginners has got themselves into a bit of a mess and you can easily retrieve their gear for them, then obviously you should. If I could easily identify someone and reunite them with lost gear (especially if it's something expensive like a cam) then I would. If there has obviously been accident and there is abandoned gear (sometimes a lot of it), clearly the only decent thing to do is help retrieve it for them.

However, I don't feel any guilt about keeping the occasional nut or sling I find, in the same way that I don't begrudge someone more able than me benefiting from my epics and mistakes.

In reply to Yonah:
(this only works effectively if everyone has named tags, and even then is still easily abused by cheats)


No offence intended, but you seem to have a fairly low opinion of people (you repeatedly refer to cheats). In my experience the vast majority of people are pretty honest and decent.

I think there are a lot of people playing devils advocate here, when in reality most of us probably inhabit the middle ground.

For me the effort to return something to its owner is based on a couple of factors. Namely:

a) Did I see the person who lost it? If so I will try very hard to give it back to them regardless of value or condition - if I'm feeling energetic I may even run after them to reunite said item.

b) Value of item.

If I find a manky old nut, I may ask people nearby if they saw who was climbing here. If thats a no go I may or may not add it to my rack depening on its condition. I have aquired the sum total of 1 DMM Wallnut via this method! (I hang my head in shame for being a theif, ar*ehole, prick etc...)

If, however, I pull out a cam I would probably make a greater effort because they are (relatively) expensive - I know I can't afford to buy very many. In this case if the owner isn't at the venue I would probably put up a message on lost and found. If someone could tell me reasonably precisely where it was stuck I would be fairly happy that I wasn't being cheated. (incidentally I see items of this value as the biggest area for disagreements)

If I found a whole rack, of course, I would do everything I could to make sure it was reunited with its rightful owner (as I'm certain most people here would).

In reply to niggle:

OK. I'll try one last time to see if I can get you to look at my behaviour differently. I realise that you are going to be hard to win over, but I'll give it a try.

In my rack I have perhaps six bits of gear that I found (or 'stole' if you prefer). In various ways I have probably had to leave ten bits of gear behind. Perhaps three of these were bits I'd found anyway.

I reckon I am fractionally down on the deal, but that's ok, because it means that someone else (perhaps it's you!) is up on the deal, and I'm perfectly happy about that.

Let me tell you the story of how I had to leave one of those bits of gear behind (aka 'gave it away').

I had to abandon an easy multi-putch route I was on because I had over-estimated the confidence of my novice second, who quailed at the sight of what was to come. So we prepared to abb off a sling. It so happened that a second party was following us. I waited till the leader reached us and asked to borrow a krab, so as to avoid damage to the sling on pulling the rope through after the abseil. I told the climber I expected him to keep the sling. He protested, and eventually threw it down to us. I stuffed it in to the sack they'd left at the bottom, and we left. All of us with a warm feeling about human nature.

I am not a thief. Nor are others who adopt the finders-keepers ethic necessarily thieves (though some may be), so I ask you one last time to save your righteous anger for someone else more deserving of it.

In reply to quadmyre & Dave Garnett:

I think one of the best things about the internet and this site is that there is finally one central place (for the UK at least) you can look to see if your stuff has been recovered and how to retrieve it. It is really quite amazing!

And all it takes from the person who retrieves it is to type a little and click a little. So there is really no excuse not to do at least that. Can your greed to keep the find override such a simple task?

Usually when I find stuff there is noone else at the crag, but I always post it up here, even when the gear is obviously old and crap, because it might mean a lot more to someone else than it does to me. I've been very thankful to receive stuff I've left before with no expectation of getting it back.

Go on, make someone's day...

In reply to Yonah:

It's interesting that you're not able to tell the difference between your free choice to give away your own gear and taking other people's gear without giving them a choice at all.

And no, I am not benefitting from your activities. I've found gear, I've lent gear, I've returned gear and even carried gear off the hill for people. The one thing I have never done is steal someone else's gear when they weren't around: I don't need their gear and they do, so why would it possibly make sense for me to take it?

In reply to Removed User:
Blimey - a lot of hot air about a fairly trivial issue!

I put yellow insulating tape on gear I have bought. I don't on crag swag for at least a year. If the rightfull owner spots it on my rack I am more than happy to give it back to them. As yet I have not used internet forums to find the rightfull owner but I guess I would if it was a significant find.


I have lost far more gear than I have found by the way

In reply to niggle:


So the onus is on other people to return your gear and you don't have to take responsibility for it? If you can't be arsed to ab down and rescue it why do you expect that someone else should spend time extracting it, getting in touch, packaging it then going to the post office to return it?

In reply to niggle:


They had a choice. Their choice was to leave that their gear was not worth the effort to unstick it and so they left it in situ.

In reply to climbingpixie:


Because that's what nice people do?

Obviously you wouldn't but I've got no problem doing it and neither do most oether people.

In reply to climbingpixie:


So gear is always left by choice? Well that's, let's say "novel" idea!

In reply to Jon Read:

Jon, you may be right that a code that developed when climbing was less suburban and there was no simple way to communicate what you had found seems less defensible now. I have posted found items on here, although that tends to be things found on the ground at a crag. For reasons probably connected with what I posted above, that seems to me a more back and white situation. Somehow a jacket, rope, or even a guidebook left on the ground isn't swag, while a jammed wire not reachable from the ground is.

In practice, my position is the same as yours, except that my feeling is that you have no obligation to return swag but if you are a nice person you will!

In reply to niggle:

You should always be open to the possibility of the novel idea. Actually I was just trying to work out why I felt an obligation to return gear left on the ground and somehow less of an obligation to return gear left on a route. It is down to this element of choice, or at least awareness.

If someone leaves a guidebook under a route, that is clearly unintentional. The book is genuinely 'lost' and a decent person finding it will make an attempt, where practical, to get it back to them. A jammed wire is different. It is unlikely the party were unaware that they had left it. At some level, they made a decision that it was impractical, or simply too much trouble, to retrieve it. In these circumstances it seems to me that if I am able to retrieve it, it's up to me what I do with it. Being a softie, I will probably try quite hard to give it back, but that's my choice, I think.

In reply to Dave Garnett: I think you've nailed it right there. There is a difference between lost items found at the bottom of the crag, and kit left in situ on a route.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I guess you're right - and I'd do the same.

It's a bit depressing to find how many climber are utter shitbags though.

In reply to chris_j_s:

Hi Chris
I may have mentioned cheats rather a lot in defence of the finders-keepers code, but actually I am not unduly worried about cheats, and I don't see them or look for them everywhere, but you have to be blind to think they don't exist, even amongst fellow climbers.

I have no criticism of your personal morality whatsoever. You are clearly in the good guy category (like almost everyone else on here). I do not suggest you should behave differently. I am simply trying to explain a) why the finders-keepers ethic is so strong in this one area of human endeavour (and not in others) and b) why I think that is probably a good thing.

In reply to Removed User:

It being? I have found gear that was quite clearly forgotten on a route (nut with quickdraw, 2 m off the ground, that I lifted out after a getnel tap with a nutkey) and not abandoned. If it was lying on the floor would it be any different?

In reply to niggle:

Of course it's left by choice in the majority of cases. There are hardly any instances on UK crags where you'd *have* to leave gear behind with no option for retrieving it.

If gear's obviously been left behind - i.e. there's no one obviously setting up an ab to get it back or it's clearly been there for a bit then if I can get it out it's mine. If it's obviously been left that day and there are people around, I'd probably ask around to see if it belonged to anyone. If it was something valuable, say a cam or something worth more, I may go as far as to post up on here (if it's in good nick) to see if anyone claims it.

If you want to label me a thief for that then go right ahead. Doesn't bother me; from this thread and others you sound like a right boring tw@, since all you can do is pick tiny, pedantic little holes in other people's arguments and I'd never climb with you anyway.

It's probably worth pointing out that once I've abandoned my own gear, I'd consider it fair game to anyone else who can get it out. Even if someone manages to get it out while I'm still at the crag, I wouldn't expect them to return it as a matter of course. Sure, it'd be nice if they did, but they're the ones who've put the effort in to get it out when I couldn't.

In reply to Andy Hobson:
Of course there are; weather, too difficult climbing, injury, out of condition route (wet / mud / overgrown / birds nests), loose rock, going off route. It's not all single pitch gritstone routes in the UK.

In reply to Chris F:

Yeah, but how often - really - do you absolutely *have* to leave your kit behind? Looking back over my climbing career and the amount of kit I've lost, probably less than 5% has been through necessity. All the other times have been because I've been knackered, gave up, sheer laziness when I was working in gear shops and could replace it cheap anyway, too scared to sketch down a few moves to my last bit then the belay - and I've done my fair share of non-grit climbing.

TBH the whole debate is pretty pointless. The gear cycle has been a long tradition in climbing - you lose gear, you pick up gear, you realise your mate's got all your crabs but you've got 4 of his wires so you keep quiet about it - and I for one hope it doesn't change. There'll always be nice people who try hard to return kit (anyone else remember the bit in One Man's Mountains where Tom Patey's ice peg reappears despite forgetting to leave his name and address with the party he left it with?) and less nice people who don't.

In reply to Andy Hobson: Me very rarely, but saying there are "hardly any instances" is straying from the truth.

So you freely admit to being one of the "less nice people" then?

In reply to Chris F:


I'd prefer the term 'mercenary'.

Like I said initially, I'd make some effort to return stuff depending on the situation. If I found Franco's ice axe I'd have given it back. If I found a dropped cam at a busy crag, I'd definitely try and return it. If I found a nut and a sling that had been left, I'd keep it. There aren't any absolutes to these debates.

In reply to Andy Hobson: I agree, I think on balance you lose a few bit now and then and hopefully find a few bits along the way too. If I’m on a route and find a wire left in, either due to it being abandoned or its too well jammed and they gave up and clearly it does not belong to anyone at the crag then I claim it (If I can un jam the thing) Over the years I’ve gained several wires and also found the odd krab from time to time. But of course its win some, lose some. I once dropped half my wires down the cliff and didn't find them all, someone will have had a nice bit of swag out of that.

In reply to Anonymous:

Hello Al!

(waves)

In reply to all:
A classic UKC thread. Thanks everyone!

I feel that if the person/persons who have lost the gear are not at or near the crag/route where you have found the gear then indeed it is a finders keepers. by all means feel free to pay postage on reuniting people with thier kit, bit if they've been unwitting enough to drop gear and not been bothered to walk back around to the bottom, or indeed even absail down to retrieve it then do they really deserve it back?
As a fairly recent poor student climber of course you are going to try and find your gear esp if it's your pride and joy (i.e. an axe, a crampon etc, but if your faced with being benighted (on a mountain route) and you could struggle with a stuck nut for another half hour or get off the hill without frost bite then a few quid here and there really doesn't matter. you could always walk back up the next day!
if someone wants something back enough, then surely they will have the wherewithal to ask, whether it be on here or in more local climbing circles. It's all a matter of worth really, if it's something big and expensive then try to reunite it, but nuts, krabs, slings etc are a free for all.
Alternatively as 'good' citizens we could start filling up police stations with loads of climbing gear!

In reply to niggle: If I leave, or get a piece of gear stuck, in a route and I can't get back to it, whoever gets it out deserves it - whether I am still in the vicinity or not! I like to be treated by others as I try and treat them! The notion that we should leave bits of stuck gear in routes just in case the rightful owner might one day return is IMHO plain bonkers. If, however I find a bit of kit at the crag which, more likely than not, has been accidentally left or mislaid then then 'it depends', based on the principle stated earlier about treating others. E.g. if there are other climbers around I would try to ascertain if I could reconcile the kit with its owner (but can I always know the person claiming it is being entirely honest?!) If it's something pretty minor like a krab or a wire and no-one's around I'd probably apply the 'finders keepers' principle on the basis that it's hardly worth the effort of trying to give it back. If it's a substantial chunk of kit which, had I lost it, I would hope the finder would try and return to me, I would try and return it. Having said that I don't have my name and address on each bit of my kit as that would be weird. I do inconspicuously mark my gear, however, so that I can identify what I own. I put the same kind of inconspicuous marks on the booty I occasionally acquire in circumstances outlined above. Do as you would be done by. Some people are careful with their gear and don't lose much, others are a bit slapdash and do. C'est la vie......

In reply to niggle:


Provide one example where gear isn't left by choice, except in cases of all members of the part dying.

In reply to niggle:

I'm almost afraid to poke my head above the parapet on this one...

Kinda repeating Ians sentiments a bit, but if I leave some pro behind because I couldn't get it out, then I've given it up. It was my gear and the onus was on me to look after it. It would be nice to be reunited, but as I couldn't be arsed hanging around to retrieve it myself I don't feel like I have the right to moan if I never see it again.

If gear is so precious, take a head torch and ab rope and a mallet to make sure you can get it out.

If I saw another climber with a piece of 'my' abandoned gear on their rack and ran over screaming 'thief', I would expect to recieve it back at a fair velocity straight between my eyes. Fair do's.

Come to think of it, I'd hate to think where my gear would get redistibuted to if lost as most of it came from ebay and has other peoples 'secret markings' on it still!

In reply to Removed User:

1. I've one qu. Did they firstly, broadcast the gear that was found, on here somewhere? To state that gear has been found at this location, time, place, and if it is yours, pm me and describe it to me, if it matches the description it is yours and we can arrange for you to collect it.

If that gear was found of course, e.g on the ground.

2. If however, it was found stuck in a rock, e.g. a nut, then I'd consider it abandoned, as I have not managed to get a nut placement out one time only, that we contributed and paid for the loss to the climber who that nut belonged to, at that time.

So in that case, to me, it'd be okay to keep it if the next person got it out, knowing it wasn't easy to get out.

In which case, if no. 1 was not carried out at all, then yes I'd say that's pretty shallow and not right of the climber to keep it without first trying to get it back to the rightful owner.

Put it another way:
Would you like it if it was vice versa??

As to the abuse on here, no need to swear at people is there, that doesn't gain you who reduce yourselves to such a low level by swearing at others any respect. What does it achieve anyway, it may make you feel good, but it doesn't read well, and gives a not good impression of 'you' to be honest.

In reply to Steve-E:

I think Niggle has just taken over from Franco as being the most irritating person that frequents this forum. As far as I am aware The BMC actively encourage other climbers to remove abandoned gear.There are loads of rusting nuts and jammed cams clogging up cracks all over the place. If the climber that has abandoned it is still at the crag then they get it back. If they are not around it is up to the remover to decide what to do with it.

In reply to craig d:


Indeed, and I think there is nothing more to be said in this pointless discussion.

In reply to craig d:

Seems a fair point to me, maybe people should respect the ethics of climbing more in that case, and follow some valid rules.

As to Niggle, I can see perfectly how people would find that one irritating, did nothing for me reading some of his 'immature' responses, which is precisely how they came across. Hopefully he'll 'learn' from the feedback on here at least, may gain him more respect that way.

In reply to Ian Milward:

While I'm tempted to agree with you in principle here, those last nine words bother me a bit. So we did a three pitch route at Polldubh recently, left an oversized Camalot jammed at the stance above the first pitch (where you can walk on from the side) while we finished the climb intending to free it afterwards, and went straight back to do so on topping out. Now, I know that in this case I'd have been calling that's mine and I'm coming back for it if there had been anyone following us up the route!

In reply to petestack:


There's always an exception that proves the rule! In a situation like you describe I would make sure one of the team kept an eye on the first stance, ready to yell, if anyone else was about!

In reply to Removed User: When I were a lad, the ethic was definitely finders keepers. If you were mug enough, or clumsy enough, or incompetent enough to drop or abandon gear, it was crag swag and fair game for whoever came across it. This even applied if the person claiming it had seen you lose it - whilst you would hope that they would do the decent thing and give it back (and many would), once you'd lost or abandoned it you'd lost any moral claim to it.

On the other hand, it was unheard of to take stuff from a sack at the foot of a route, and you could leave your gear unattended in the confidence that it would remain untouched.

Reading this thread, I was surprised to learn that the ethic has changed, at least in some people's eyes. I'd regarded the "lost and found" as being a generous offer on the part of the person who found the swag, rather than a moral obligation.

Of course, modern communications do make it easier to find the person who lost it, which previously would have been impossible. But I remain of the view that you are responsible for your own gear, and if for any reason I have to abandon some of it on a climb, that's part of the game. I don't expect to see it again. If someone then makes the effort to return it, that's good of them and I appreciate it, but I've no complaints if they don't.

Of course, if it's my second's fault then I expect him to pay for it :}

niggle: What happened to get you so het up about this?

Personally, if I have to leave gear en route, I either ab back down and get it or kiss it goodbye. And I'd rather someone remove it (whatever they do with it after) than leave it there forever.
Last weekend, I walked past a route and I could see a Friend in the crack about 10 yards up, fouling up the view of a striking corner crack. There was nobody else around and there is unlikely to be until the new season next May. I kept on walking. Am I a bad person for not attempting to reunite this gear with its "owner"?