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There's no witty punch-line coming up.
While watching a few minutes of Obama's Inauguration on Sky News I could not help notice that every American immigrant, and their children, that was interviewed by the News Reporter was proud to be called an American.
Can the same be said for this country?
While watching a few minutes of Obama's Inauguration on Sky News I could not help notice that every American immigrant, and their children, that was interviewed by the News Reporter was proud to be called an American.
Can the same be said for this country?
In reply to The Lemming: I'm proud not to be Aaaaaaamerican - if that helps.
In reply The Lemming: I think it has a lot to do with the sort of people who go to these things. How many people outside st pauls when diana died would have said "never liked her anyway."
In reply to The Lemming: i am proud to be british, i just dont shout 'gordon brown' from the roof tops! People moved to America believing the American Dream, credit to them that they still do, that's why they're proud to be American.
In reply to johnSD:
The more I think about this, the less sense I can make of it.
> America is a concept, British is a nationality.
The more I think about this, the less sense I can make of it.
In reply to The Lemming:
I was in the states the other day. I went to watch a basketball game. At the start, when they played their national anthem, everyone stood up with their hand on their heart. I thought it was very pretentious.
I'm proud to be british, but in a much more subtle way.
Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
I was in the states the other day. I went to watch a basketball game. At the start, when they played their national anthem, everyone stood up with their hand on their heart. I thought it was very pretentious.
I'm proud to be british, but in a much more subtle way.
Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
In reply to TWR:
And that's a bad thing to be proud of your country?
> Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
And that's a bad thing to be proud of your country?
In reply to The Lemming:
Britain distrusts corporations and allows itself to be run by government, albeit with a lot of whining. The USA distrusts government and allows itself to be run by corporations, albeit with a lot of whining.
It's terribly important in the US to be seen as patriotic, and occasionally this can cause a certain dogmatic narrow-mindedness. It's terribly important in the UK to be seen as cynical, and occasionally this can cause a certain dogmatic narrow-mindedness.
US society has some terrible faults, but on the whole I like the Americans
UK society has some great attributes, but on the whole I dislike the British.
Britain distrusts corporations and allows itself to be run by government, albeit with a lot of whining. The USA distrusts government and allows itself to be run by corporations, albeit with a lot of whining.
It's terribly important in the US to be seen as patriotic, and occasionally this can cause a certain dogmatic narrow-mindedness. It's terribly important in the UK to be seen as cynical, and occasionally this can cause a certain dogmatic narrow-mindedness.
US society has some terrible faults, but on the whole I like the Americans
UK society has some great attributes, but on the whole I dislike the British.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
A British what?
> (In reply to jbird)
>
> I'm proud to be an American and a British.
>
> Mick
>
> I'm proud to be an American and a British.
>
> Mick
A British what?
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Thats what I thought.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> A British what?
> [...]
>
> A British what?
Thats what I thought.
In reply to The Lemming:
I'm not British, I'm English (you don't want to go grouping yourself together with those funny folk from the colonies)
I'm not British, I'm English (you don't want to go grouping yourself together with those funny folk from the colonies)
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: You do realise you have opened yourself up to abuse here matey boy statue of liberty cocker!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Ok, so you have dual nationality...but...
Which is better UK or US?
Ok, so you have dual nationality...but...
Which is better UK or US?
In reply to The Lemming:
I doubt it.
Having said that I have quite a good friend from Detroit, I was working with him in London in December and he said he was looking forward to being proud to be an American again - something he hadn't been able to feel as long as Bush, and everything he stood for, was the face that the USA presented to the world.
Let's just hope for the World's sake that Obama doesn't prove to be a Blair-like false dawn. I don't think he will, but then what do I know.
> Can the same be said for this country?
I doubt it.
Having said that I have quite a good friend from Detroit, I was working with him in London in December and he said he was looking forward to being proud to be an American again - something he hadn't been able to feel as long as Bush, and everything he stood for, was the face that the USA presented to the world.
Let's just hope for the World's sake that Obama doesn't prove to be a Blair-like false dawn. I don't think he will, but then what do I know.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Think you'll find you're both. European as well, whether you like it or not.
> I'm not British, I'm English
Think you'll find you're both. European as well, whether you like it or not.
In reply to TobyA:
would it make more sense if I'd not made a typo and said 'american' instead of 'america'?... Either way, I was being facetious in answering the OP - although i think i might genuinely be onto something. America is still a young nation of recent migration, and Americanism still seems to be defined by an american dream, which is why immigrants, aspirants, and citizens alike can be influenced and proud of it. There is no British dream, and no coherent british identity that draws people or pride in a similar way. Or something like that....
> (In reply to johnSD)
>
> [...]
>
> The more I think about this, the less sense I can make of it.
>
> [...]
>
> The more I think about this, the less sense I can make of it.
would it make more sense if I'd not made a typo and said 'american' instead of 'america'?... Either way, I was being facetious in answering the OP - although i think i might genuinely be onto something. America is still a young nation of recent migration, and Americanism still seems to be defined by an american dream, which is why immigrants, aspirants, and citizens alike can be influenced and proud of it. There is no British dream, and no coherent british identity that draws people or pride in a similar way. Or something like that....
In reply to Reach>Talent:
And it's a fine Irish name you have too to be sure!
And it's a fine Irish name you have too to be sure!
In reply to The Lemming:
That's not patriotism, patriotism also implies a willingness to defend, sacrifice or die for ones country. The term is widely misused.
> (In reply to TWR)
>
> [...]
>
> And that's a bad thing to be proud of your country?
>
> [...]
>
> And that's a bad thing to be proud of your country?
That's not patriotism, patriotism also implies a willingness to defend, sacrifice or die for ones country. The term is widely misused.
In reply to IainRUK: i dont know how applicable 'your' meaning (probably the original meaning anyway) of patriotism is these days, the only way you can die for you country is to travel thousands of miles away to spill your blood for a seemingly misunderstood cause. dying for your country in the 21st century doesnt involve sacrificing your life to defend the borders of Britain.
In reply to jbird: Even so it's a term thrown around as though it means being proud of ones country. That's national paride, not patriotism. Even without dieing for ones country it implies a sacrifice; so a willingness to sacrifice something, so nowadays this could be time, money, property etc for the good of the county. How many people who call themselves patriots actually sacrifice anything?
In reply to IainRUK: I would argue tax, but we all have to pay that and it is the price of living here, so that one doesn't count!
In reply to jbird: OK sacrifice voluntarily
In reply to IainRUK: What do Americans sacrifice voluntarily for their country? Or are they misusing the word aswell
In reply to johnSD:
Isn't any 'nationality' merely a concept?
If you think a 'coherent British identity' doesn't exist than how would you define a Brit?
Isn't any 'nationality' merely a concept?
If you think a 'coherent British identity' doesn't exist than how would you define a Brit?
In reply to jbird: I think everyone does.
In reply to IainRUK:
You're being too categorical. I'm sure JCM or someone who had a 'classical education' will be a long shortly to say I'm wrong - but I thought it was from the Greek, to mean love of country.
The randomness of patriotism (no one chooses to be born British, Gambian or Vietnamese) means that from a cosmopolitan philosophical position, the position is ethically dubious - closer to racism or some other form of self selecting bigotry.
Personally I'm quite happy with the idea of "critical patriotism" (or progressive patriotism as Billy Bragg has put it), of celebrating what your country does well and accepting what it does badly and working towards bettering those aspects.
> patriotism also implies a willingness to defend, sacrifice or die for ones country. The term is widely misused.
You're being too categorical. I'm sure JCM or someone who had a 'classical education' will be a long shortly to say I'm wrong - but I thought it was from the Greek, to mean love of country.
The randomness of patriotism (no one chooses to be born British, Gambian or Vietnamese) means that from a cosmopolitan philosophical position, the position is ethically dubious - closer to racism or some other form of self selecting bigotry.
Personally I'm quite happy with the idea of "critical patriotism" (or progressive patriotism as Billy Bragg has put it), of celebrating what your country does well and accepting what it does badly and working towards bettering those aspects.
In reply to TWR:
Or tacky and superficial, a bit prone to generalisations too
The main difference is that the USA is a country of immigration, apart from the Amerindians "who know their place" and they came there often for to make a new life and escaper persecution. Most Europeans descend from people who have been in their country for many centuries... and take it for granted. As for the recent immigrants, they have often not really turned their back on their place of origin, and for all sorts of reasons feel "outsiders"... maybe chiefly because they are a minority whereas in the US everybody pretty well came from somewhere else.
>
> Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
> Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
Or tacky and superficial, a bit prone to generalisations too
The main difference is that the USA is a country of immigration, apart from the Amerindians "who know their place" and they came there often for to make a new life and escaper persecution. Most Europeans descend from people who have been in their country for many centuries... and take it for granted. As for the recent immigrants, they have often not really turned their back on their place of origin, and for all sorts of reasons feel "outsiders"... maybe chiefly because they are a minority whereas in the US everybody pretty well came from somewhere else.
In reply to The Lemming:
Quite often, yes. The same as being ashamed is too... Pride and shame should only really be felt for things you have had a hand in, not what someone else did before you were born, in which you played no part.
We should possibly have these feelings today, either of them, concerning what our country (where we live or identify with) is doing at present and in which we have played a role, including that of passively accepting things done in our name without our objecting.
> And that's a bad thing to be proud of your country?
Quite often, yes. The same as being ashamed is too... Pride and shame should only really be felt for things you have had a hand in, not what someone else did before you were born, in which you played no part.
We should possibly have these feelings today, either of them, concerning what our country (where we live or identify with) is doing at present and in which we have played a role, including that of passively accepting things done in our name without our objecting.
In reply to The Lemming:
The problems that I have with the whole 'white dominions' thing, which would include USA, Canada, Australia and others, is that I am distrustful of people who want to leave their own country and of people who think it's OK to steal somebody elses. Only a tiny proportion of the USA population went there because of trully appalling discrimiination or famine. Most have gone there much more recently. If they were really the hard workers that they keep telling us, instead of carpetbagging thieves, they would have dug their heals in and worked to make their own country a better place.
The problems that I have with the whole 'white dominions' thing, which would include USA, Canada, Australia and others, is that I am distrustful of people who want to leave their own country and of people who think it's OK to steal somebody elses. Only a tiny proportion of the USA population went there because of trully appalling discrimiination or famine. Most have gone there much more recently. If they were really the hard workers that they keep telling us, instead of carpetbagging thieves, they would have dug their heals in and worked to make their own country a better place.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
they would have dug their heals in and worked to make their own country a better place.
Why? If there are better opportunities for things you value (money, lifestyle or whatever) "over there", then the rational decision is to take advantage of them.
they would have dug their heals in and worked to make their own country a better place.
Why? If there are better opportunities for things you value (money, lifestyle or whatever) "over there", then the rational decision is to take advantage of them.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I haven't any figure to give but an awful lot of people went there to flee oppression... many from the old Austro-Hungarian empire, fleeing poverty in S Italy, Armenians and Greeks from massacre in Turkey (have you seen the film "America, America" by Elia Kazan?) all in the 19th and 20th century. The original "Pilgrim Fathers" were protestants fleeing religious persecution, or Jews or Scots chased from their land in the clearances, then Irish by famine, to give just a few examples.
The USA wanted people to fill it's "empty spaces" (the indigenous population wasn't considered, a bit like nowadays in Palestine before someone points it out) and also for the factories of the industrial revolution. Life was hard for working people in the "old world", even agricultural workers in Britain were paid barely enough to survive even when in work, and this was one of the more prosperous countries.
I don't think that many went there, a long and dangerous voyage into the unknown, often ending in death by disease (Dickens paints a picture of this in one of his books, can't remember which, where the "hopefuls" were pitilessly taken advantage of by those already established there) without a pretty strong motive.
I haven't any figure to give but an awful lot of people went there to flee oppression... many from the old Austro-Hungarian empire, fleeing poverty in S Italy, Armenians and Greeks from massacre in Turkey (have you seen the film "America, America" by Elia Kazan?) all in the 19th and 20th century. The original "Pilgrim Fathers" were protestants fleeing religious persecution, or Jews or Scots chased from their land in the clearances, then Irish by famine, to give just a few examples.
The USA wanted people to fill it's "empty spaces" (the indigenous population wasn't considered, a bit like nowadays in Palestine before someone points it out) and also for the factories of the industrial revolution. Life was hard for working people in the "old world", even agricultural workers in Britain were paid barely enough to survive even when in work, and this was one of the more prosperous countries.
I don't think that many went there, a long and dangerous voyage into the unknown, often ending in death by disease (Dickens paints a picture of this in one of his books, can't remember which, where the "hopefuls" were pitilessly taken advantage of by those already established there) without a pretty strong motive.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
The abused abuser.
You mean thousands of men and women who survived discrimination, abuse and mass murder in their own country going to someone elses country and abusing and murdering the inhabitants almost to extinction?
Makes my blood boil.
Feel free to bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
(Yes, Palestine. Yes, Formosa. ...)
The abused abuser.
You mean thousands of men and women who survived discrimination, abuse and mass murder in their own country going to someone elses country and abusing and murdering the inhabitants almost to extinction?
Makes my blood boil.
Feel free to bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
(Yes, Palestine. Yes, Formosa. ...)
In reply to The Lemming:
The difference ? one had an empire which declined over 100 years ago, the other is declimimg now.
The difference ? one had an empire which declined over 100 years ago, the other is declimimg now.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Subject. We have a monachy, the british are subje cts of that Monachy. the US is a repulic, Americans are citizens.
Sxx
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> A British what?
> [...]
>
> A British what?
Subject. We have a monachy, the british are subje cts of that Monachy. the US is a repulic, Americans are citizens.
Sxx
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Mine too, but to be fair, there may have been a few gaps between massacring other people when they just got on with life while recovering from their past misfortunes. All weren't pioneers, a lot will have stayed in the industrial cities of the East Coast.
> Makes my blood boil
Mine too, but to be fair, there may have been a few gaps between massacring other people when they just got on with life while recovering from their past misfortunes. All weren't pioneers, a lot will have stayed in the industrial cities of the East Coast.
In reply to Sarah G:
My British passport says I am a citizen, you must have got one of the duff ones
My British passport says I am a citizen, you must have got one of the duff ones
In reply to Jim Fraser:
It's a very intersting annalogy and one I have struggled with when coming over to Canada. I have thought about writing a book which deals with the subject and considers just how involved where Scots and Irish immigrants in the oppression of the Native Americans/first nations.
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> The abused abuser.
>
> You mean thousands of men and women who survived discrimination, abuse and mass murder in their own country going to someone elses country and abusing and murdering the inhabitants almost to extinction?
>
> Makes my blood boil.
>
> Feel free to bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
>
>
>
> (Yes, Palestine. Yes, Formosa. ...)
>
> The abused abuser.
>
> You mean thousands of men and women who survived discrimination, abuse and mass murder in their own country going to someone elses country and abusing and murdering the inhabitants almost to extinction?
>
> Makes my blood boil.
>
> Feel free to bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
>
>
>
> (Yes, Palestine. Yes, Formosa. ...)
It's a very intersting annalogy and one I have struggled with when coming over to Canada. I have thought about writing a book which deals with the subject and considers just how involved where Scots and Irish immigrants in the oppression of the Native Americans/first nations.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I find your attitude quite bizarre as well a very odd reading of history, considering that long before Americans had become Americans and started going on about manifest destiny and all that, the British, French and Spanish Empires were already getting stuck into the native Americans.
The American descendants of say Russian Jews who emigrated in the late 19th century to escape pogroms surely don't have much to feel bad about.
If the Americans have an original sin it is surely slavery and apartheid in the South until recently. That was an American decision.
But at least you're consistent. Bruce wants the Jews out of Palestine, but seems ready to give the New Zealanders or the white Venezuelans a pass. But where to stop Jim? Should we all go back to some romaticized notion of every nation having the sole rights to some particular plot of land? I'm worried I might end up living in Sweden!
> Makes my blood boil.
>> Feel free to bury my heart at Wounded Knee.
I find your attitude quite bizarre as well a very odd reading of history, considering that long before Americans had become Americans and started going on about manifest destiny and all that, the British, French and Spanish Empires were already getting stuck into the native Americans.
The American descendants of say Russian Jews who emigrated in the late 19th century to escape pogroms surely don't have much to feel bad about.
If the Americans have an original sin it is surely slavery and apartheid in the South until recently. That was an American decision.
But at least you're consistent. Bruce wants the Jews out of Palestine, but seems ready to give the New Zealanders or the white Venezuelans a pass. But where to stop Jim? Should we all go back to some romaticized notion of every nation having the sole rights to some particular plot of land? I'm worried I might end up living in Sweden!
In reply to Sarah G:
Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject (see after 1983 section)
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
> [...]
>
> Subject. We have a monachy, the british are subje cts of that Monachy. the US is a repulic, Americans are citizens.
> [...]
>
> Subject. We have a monachy, the british are subje cts of that Monachy. the US is a repulic, Americans are citizens.
Wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject (see after 1983 section)
In reply to TobyA:
Doesn't explain why the Mohawks left their brothers of the long house and went to Canada after the American Revolution.
Where the **ck did I say anything about anyone going back anywhere?
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
> [...] ... ... the British, French and ... were already getting stuck into the native Americans.
> [...] ... ... the British, French and ... were already getting stuck into the native Americans.
Doesn't explain why the Mohawks left their brothers of the long house and went to Canada after the American Revolution.
> ... Should we all go back ...
Where the **ck did I say anything about anyone going back anywhere?
In reply to The Lemming:
Apart from the original "owners" of America who were just drunk at home.
> There's no witty punch-line coming up.
>
> While watching a few minutes of Obama's Inauguration on Sky News I could not help notice that every American immigrant, and their children, that was interviewed by the News Reporter was proud to be called an American.
>
> Can the same be said for this country?
>
> While watching a few minutes of Obama's Inauguration on Sky News I could not help notice that every American immigrant, and their children, that was interviewed by the News Reporter was proud to be called an American.
>
> Can the same be said for this country?
Apart from the original "owners" of America who were just drunk at home.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Oh, OK then. But there must be few holiday destination where your blood doesn't boil as so much of world history tends to be invasion, occupation and colonisation.
> Where the **ck did I say anything about anyone going back anywhere?
Oh, OK then. But there must be few holiday destination where your blood doesn't boil as so much of world history tends to be invasion, occupation and colonisation.
In reply to TobyA:
"My country right or wrong! To be supported when right and righted when wrong!" (I forget who said this.)
> Personally I'm quite happy with the idea of "critical patriotism" ... of celebrating what your country
> does well and accepting what it does badly and working towards bettering those aspects.
> does well and accepting what it does badly and working towards bettering those aspects.
"My country right or wrong! To be supported when right and righted when wrong!" (I forget who said this.)
In reply to Jim Fraser:
You must also distrust allot of people - all the Scots who left Scotland and all the immigrants who have settled there.
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> I am distrustful of people who want to leave their own country and of people who think it's OK to steal somebody elses.
>
> I am distrustful of people who want to leave their own country and of people who think it's OK to steal somebody elses.
You must also distrust allot of people - all the Scots who left Scotland and all the immigrants who have settled there.
In reply to Removed User:
How have immigrants to Scotland stolen anything? They didn't come armed... at least not for quite a few hundreds of years when the Scotti, Saxons, Vikings or Normans popped up there. In those days it was the way thing were, nowadays things are supposed to be different!
> You must also distrust allot of people - all the Scots who left Scotland and all the immigrants who have settled there.
How have immigrants to Scotland stolen anything? They didn't come armed... at least not for quite a few hundreds of years when the Scotti, Saxons, Vikings or Normans popped up there. In those days it was the way thing were, nowadays things are supposed to be different!
In reply to TWR:
I think that, the way they bang on about patriotism, it comes across as being shallow.
Also, I don't dislike Obama - I think he might just break the Bush mold - but listening to his speech it sounded rather like one of their loud-mouthed envangelical preachers.
That said, he certainly seems more articulate than Dubya - not that that's difficult
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
>
>
> Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
> Americans, in my expirence, appear to be too patriotic.
I think that, the way they bang on about patriotism, it comes across as being shallow.
Also, I don't dislike Obama - I think he might just break the Bush mold - but listening to his speech it sounded rather like one of their loud-mouthed envangelical preachers.
That said, he certainly seems more articulate than Dubya - not that that's difficult
In reply to Coel Hellier:
From discussions with Americans on this subject they are clearly taught the first sentence but never the second.
> "My country right or wrong! To be supported when right and righted when wrong!"
From discussions with Americans on this subject they are clearly taught the first sentence but never the second.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
So when does "nowadays" start? Certainly in the 17 and 1800's when most of this "theft" took place it was the norm. In fact Native Americans weren't even consider human beings.
Do you consider my emmigration to Canada theft? I didn't come armed either.
So when does "nowadays" start? Certainly in the 17 and 1800's when most of this "theft" took place it was the norm. In fact Native Americans weren't even consider human beings.
Do you consider my emmigration to Canada theft? I didn't come armed either.
In reply to Removed User:
I thought you meant immigrants to Scotland nowadays, that is since WW2.
I agree that the Amerindians were treated like shit, and for me the same mentality is being demonstrated in Palestine today by the Israelis. Both were wrong, but it's a bit like smoking, when no one knew it gave you cancer buying a packet of fags for someone wasn't the same as doing it now as now we know what it does to them. Until the 20th century few people even in advanced countries questioned the right of developed people to go and take what they wanted in less developed...
Italy started colonising after WW1 IIRC, but this changed between the end of WW1 with the setting up of the League of Nations and the acceptance of self determination and the end of the European empires and continued to the set of the UN and it's charter which finally put an end to this acceptance...
In Australia and New Zealand they seem to still be trying to put things straight... in Canada and the USA too in a way. As for you I don't know if you stole anything... did you?
I thought you meant immigrants to Scotland nowadays, that is since WW2.
I agree that the Amerindians were treated like shit, and for me the same mentality is being demonstrated in Palestine today by the Israelis. Both were wrong, but it's a bit like smoking, when no one knew it gave you cancer buying a packet of fags for someone wasn't the same as doing it now as now we know what it does to them. Until the 20th century few people even in advanced countries questioned the right of developed people to go and take what they wanted in less developed...
Italy started colonising after WW1 IIRC, but this changed between the end of WW1 with the setting up of the League of Nations and the acceptance of self determination and the end of the European empires and continued to the set of the UN and it's charter which finally put an end to this acceptance...
In Australia and New Zealand they seem to still be trying to put things straight... in Canada and the USA too in a way. As for you I don't know if you stole anything... did you?
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Did you not steal the heart of fair French maiden Bruce? There are some French men who might have it in for you for that?
..."Coming over here, drinking our booze, shagging our women..." etc.
..."Coming over here, drinking our booze, shagging our women..." etc.
In reply to TobyA:
It's not my fault if French women have to make do with immigrants.
They must have their reasons, I suppose.
It's not my fault if French women have to make do with immigrants.
They must have their reasons, I suppose.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Likewise in Finland!
> It's not my fault if French women have to make do with immigrants.
>
> They must have their reasons, I suppose.
>
> They must have their reasons, I suppose.
Likewise in Finland!
In reply to The Lemming:
Plenty of Americans are not proud but those voices were probably edited out by Sky news.
One of the good things about the UK is it's lack of jingoism. We're not so easily indoctrinated here. But to be fair some parts of the US are the same. A mate who was travelling about the US just after 9/11 said that some places were full of flag waving patriots whilst others (Washington state was one) were not like that at all.
The difference is that US is the centre of the now crumbling global empire whilst the UK is it's most subservient ally.
Plenty of Americans are not proud but those voices were probably edited out by Sky news.
One of the good things about the UK is it's lack of jingoism. We're not so easily indoctrinated here. But to be fair some parts of the US are the same. A mate who was travelling about the US just after 9/11 said that some places were full of flag waving patriots whilst others (Washington state was one) were not like that at all.
The difference is that US is the centre of the now crumbling global empire whilst the UK is it's most subservient ally.
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