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We've all found the odd thing stuck in a crag, a nut here or there. I think in my personal experience so long as the nut doesnt look completely battered etc it's useful and useable and i add it to my rack. From what i understand this is roughly the norm.
Found a Cam today, all moving parts move fine, no rust, the sling looks old and i would probably replace that but what is the consensus on using cams that have been found, it would make a nice addition to my rack however i'd rather be alive than have a cam i found fail on me.
Any input appreciated.
Found a Cam today, all moving parts move fine, no rust, the sling looks old and i would probably replace that but what is the consensus on using cams that have been found, it would make a nice addition to my rack however i'd rather be alive than have a cam i found fail on me.
Any input appreciated.
In reply to Fantasian: I found a nut today, maybe when weve got a racks worth we can ebay it and split the profits...
In reply to Fantasian:
What's to go wrong ? the things that fail on cams are things like the trigger wires which aren't safety critical.
What's to go wrong ? the things that fail on cams are things like the trigger wires which aren't safety critical.
In reply to Fantasian:
Personally if it looked in reasonable nick and hadn't been there for years (e.g. someone lost it in the dark last weekend) I would make some attempt to locate its owner. This is how I would behave and has nothing much to do with climbing, its not a moral judgement on you, you can do what you like .
If you wish to keep it I think you are asking a stupid question, it the metalwork looks OK to you then thats the best answer you can get, asking on here will not produce any clearer information.
I would climb using it if the metalwork was not serously bent, ignore any scratches as they're par for the course really.
I suspect you may have posted as a light wind up - This thread will almost certainly dissolve into a fight between the "i'd give it back" and "I'd keep it" camps. I guess I started it but there we go.
> Found a Cam today, all moving parts move fine, no rust, the sling looks old and i would probably replace that but what is the consensus on using cams that have been found, it would make a nice addition to my rack however i'd rather be alive than have a cam i found fail on me.
>
> Any input appreciated.
>
> Any input appreciated.
Personally if it looked in reasonable nick and hadn't been there for years (e.g. someone lost it in the dark last weekend) I would make some attempt to locate its owner. This is how I would behave and has nothing much to do with climbing, its not a moral judgement on you, you can do what you like .
If you wish to keep it I think you are asking a stupid question, it the metalwork looks OK to you then thats the best answer you can get, asking on here will not produce any clearer information.
I would climb using it if the metalwork was not serously bent, ignore any scratches as they're par for the course really.
I suspect you may have posted as a light wind up - This thread will almost certainly dissolve into a fight between the "i'd give it back" and "I'd keep it" camps. I guess I started it but there we go.
In reply to Fantasian:
I pretty much always advertise gear I have found on here before I keep it, simply to appease my concience. I've never found a cam that I would want to keep, but I would be more wary about using a cam than I would a nut. If it looks good, it probably is though.
I pretty much always advertise gear I have found on here before I keep it, simply to appease my concience. I've never found a cam that I would want to keep, but I would be more wary about using a cam than I would a nut. If it looks good, it probably is though.
In reply to Fantasian: There is a worrying trend developing relating to abandoned gear amongst UKC users. I think the traditions are more solidly upheld in the real world however...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=329756&v=1#x4865742
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=329756&v=1#x4865742
In reply to Removed User:
In pre-internet days if you found kit at the crag and there was no-one around there was no centralised means of advertising the fact. It basically depended on how much gear you found: a single wire or similar was always regarded as "fair game"; a rack of Friends wasn't and you either handed it in to the local police station or put a notice up in say Wilf's or Pete's Eats to the effect that some kit was found on wherever.
Now, I'd post on here (and/or Scottish Climbs or wherever) along the lines of:
"Some abandoned kit found on crag name. If the owner would provide a description and details of where it was abandoned it will be returned"
If after a period of time, three or four months, no-one responds then it's a case of "finders keepers" - the original owner obviously isn't bothered about its loss.
ALC
In pre-internet days if you found kit at the crag and there was no-one around there was no centralised means of advertising the fact. It basically depended on how much gear you found: a single wire or similar was always regarded as "fair game"; a rack of Friends wasn't and you either handed it in to the local police station or put a notice up in say Wilf's or Pete's Eats to the effect that some kit was found on wherever.
Now, I'd post on here (and/or Scottish Climbs or wherever) along the lines of:
"Some abandoned kit found on crag name. If the owner would provide a description and details of where it was abandoned it will be returned"
If after a period of time, three or four months, no-one responds then it's a case of "finders keepers" - the original owner obviously isn't bothered about its loss.
ALC
In reply to Removed User:
Even more worrying is the trend for people to venture outside without a rack at all. Sport climbing will be the death of traditional crag swag.
Even more worrying is the trend for people to venture outside without a rack at all. Sport climbing will be the death of traditional crag swag.
In reply to GrahamD:
Really? I've heard about several cases of a full set of quickdraws being pinched out of sport routes but I always thought that was to be expected at the more degenerate end of the climbing spectrum...
> (In reply to Hardonicus)
>
> Sport climbing will be the death of traditional crag swag.
>
> Sport climbing will be the death of traditional crag swag.
Really? I've heard about several cases of a full set of quickdraws being pinched out of sport routes but I always thought that was to be expected at the more degenerate end of the climbing spectrum...
In reply to Fantasian:
A cam's a lot more expensive than a nut. Someone might be really hard up and that cam could mean a lot to them. At least make a token effort to return it by posting it up on lost and found.
A cam's a lot more expensive than a nut. Someone might be really hard up and that cam could mean a lot to them. At least make a token effort to return it by posting it up on lost and found.
In reply to bpmclimb: If they were that hard up they would have spend more time getting it out. God knows I have battled for a hour to retrieve a stuck nut in my poverty stricken youth.
In reply to Fantasian:
in the eyes of the law after 28 days you can keep it, you are suppoesed to report to the police. i think putting apost on here or a note in a cafe is reasonable.
After 28 days if there are no takers then you can keep it conscience free
in the eyes of the law after 28 days you can keep it, you are suppoesed to report to the police. i think putting apost on here or a note in a cafe is reasonable.
After 28 days if there are no takers then you can keep it conscience free
In reply to Removed User:
Keep fighting and you'll win them yet! http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=595984
Keep fighting and you'll win them yet! http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=595984
In reply to Fantasian: Technically there is an offence of theft through finding. So, in theory, you should hand it in to the local police station. But how many climbers would go to a police station to ask if any gear was handed in?
As others have said, if you have done your best to locate the owner I think that it is fair game. Obviously a sack at the bottom of a crag is a bit different.
As others have said, if you have done your best to locate the owner I think that it is fair game. Obviously a sack at the bottom of a crag is a bit different.
In reply to Removed User:
You're making assumptions because they're convenient to you. They may have made a mistake, forgotten that they'd left it in there, then realised later and started anxiously scanning the forums to see if anyone might have been honest enough to try and return it. That's just as likely as your scenario.
By your argument you'd keep the pension book full of cash on the basis that if the pensioner really needed it they would have taken more care not to drop it in the first place.
All sorts of rationalizations like this get used to help justify dishonest actions. Another handy manoeuvre is to use the euphemism "crag swag" in a transparent attempt to legitimize what is basically theft.
> (In reply to bpmclimb) If they were that hard up they would have spend more time getting it out. God knows I have battled for a hour to retrieve a stuck nut in my poverty stricken youth.
You're making assumptions because they're convenient to you. They may have made a mistake, forgotten that they'd left it in there, then realised later and started anxiously scanning the forums to see if anyone might have been honest enough to try and return it. That's just as likely as your scenario.
By your argument you'd keep the pension book full of cash on the basis that if the pensioner really needed it they would have taken more care not to drop it in the first place.
All sorts of rationalizations like this get used to help justify dishonest actions. Another handy manoeuvre is to use the euphemism "crag swag" in a transparent attempt to legitimize what is basically theft.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Made a mistake and left it in there ? don't talk daft. Someone - leader or second - must have made a deliberate decision to unclip the rope and leave the cam in place.
Made a mistake and left it in there ? don't talk daft. Someone - leader or second - must have made a deliberate decision to unclip the rope and leave the cam in place.
In reply to bpmclimb: Oh dear. It appears you are oversimplifying the situation to suit your polarized views.
The OP mentions the 'We've all found the odd thing stuck in a crag, a nut here or there'.
We can thus safely assume he is talking about abandoned gear on route, not gear that was lost/left by accident at the crag.
I am sure you would agree there is a difference.
The OP mentions the 'We've all found the odd thing stuck in a crag, a nut here or there'.
We can thus safely assume he is talking about abandoned gear on route, not gear that was lost/left by accident at the crag.
I am sure you would agree there is a difference.
In reply to GrahamD:
Well I don't think it's daft, as I know a number of people who've done that, or something like it. I've done it myself. I recently lost a harness plus crabs, slings and ATC that way - didn't leave it for long but by the time I realized my mistake some scally had nicked it.
Very handy I must say - to justify taking it on the grounds that it must have been left on purpose, and that it's inconceivable that it could be an accident/oversight.
Well I don't think it's daft, as I know a number of people who've done that, or something like it. I've done it myself. I recently lost a harness plus crabs, slings and ATC that way - didn't leave it for long but by the time I realized my mistake some scally had nicked it.
Very handy I must say - to justify taking it on the grounds that it must have been left on purpose, and that it's inconceivable that it could be an accident/oversight.
In reply to Removed User:
Yes I'd agree that there are limiting cases. But I think there's a big difference between a nut and a friend, and I'd personally always try to return the latter, wherever I found it.
Yes I'd agree that there are limiting cases. But I think there's a big difference between a nut and a friend, and I'd personally always try to return the latter, wherever I found it.
In reply to bpmclimb:
You didn't leave stuff stuck in a route though ? which is, of course, what we are talking about.
You didn't leave stuff stuck in a route though ? which is, of course, what we are talking about.
In reply to Fantasian:
If no obvious owner at the crag I'd post on here and if no response within a month or so I'd consider it part of my collection. If however for some reason I ran into the owner later and he could identify it I'd give it back.
Regardless of the value of the item.
The last thing I recently advertised on here was (another) nut key. I now have four of these, could people stop leaving them around for me to find?
Incidentally, I'm still irritated that when I accidentally left £200 of cams at the roaches due to a rapid retreat with a partner who was not well, all with my name and phone number on them, someone nicked them and I never saw them again. I am hoping the knife slipped when they were sawing my details off...
If no obvious owner at the crag I'd post on here and if no response within a month or so I'd consider it part of my collection. If however for some reason I ran into the owner later and he could identify it I'd give it back.
Regardless of the value of the item.
The last thing I recently advertised on here was (another) nut key. I now have four of these, could people stop leaving them around for me to find?
Incidentally, I'm still irritated that when I accidentally left £200 of cams at the roaches due to a rapid retreat with a partner who was not well, all with my name and phone number on them, someone nicked them and I never saw them again. I am hoping the knife slipped when they were sawing my details off...
In reply to bpmclimb: So taking a nut is OK, but a clearly abandoned cam is theft?
In reply to Fantasian: Regarding the safety of found equipment. People don't leave gear behind on crags because they think its too old/dodgy/unsafe to use any more. They do it because they can't get out! If it looks ok there's no more reason to be suspicious of it than if it were part of somebody elses rack who you'd just teamed up with.
In reply to Fantasian: If you "find" stuff it is never yours unless the previous owner has discarded it. Whether you choose to use it is up to you.
You should take reasonable steps to find the owner. You can talk in circles about what they are
There is no 28 day rule in law though in practice it may be part of the reasonable steps
You should take reasonable steps to find the owner. You can talk in circles about what they are
There is no 28 day rule in law though in practice it may be part of the reasonable steps
In reply to Fantasian: To be fair, I would regard gear stuck in the crag as litter. For example, recently a mate spent a lot of time recovering a cam from just below the summit of Napes Needle - not that we particularly wanted the swag, but because it was completely out of place there. He then spent even longer getting the thing working. No way should that be returned to whoever abandoned it.
Ok, this post wasnt a joke or troll or whatever you call it, im glad for the advice and have posted a thread in the lost and found. I assumed that something that was left midroute was considered lost, thats the policy i would operate on, that said i would of course be greatful to recieve it back.
The cam movement appears fine so i guess ill use it but the sling looks old and battered so ill probably replace it assuming noone claims it.
Thanks for the help and advice it's much appreciated im still relatively a learner and newbie when it comes to climbing ethics, as someone mentioned before if i found a 5 pound note on the floor with no obvious owner i would take it for myself, then again if i saw someone drop it i would give it back. With regard to my situation i wasnt following someone up a route and took it out after and kept it.
The cam movement appears fine so i guess ill use it but the sling looks old and battered so ill probably replace it assuming noone claims it.
Thanks for the help and advice it's much appreciated im still relatively a learner and newbie when it comes to climbing ethics, as someone mentioned before if i found a 5 pound note on the floor with no obvious owner i would take it for myself, then again if i saw someone drop it i would give it back. With regard to my situation i wasnt following someone up a route and took it out after and kept it.
In reply to GrahamD:
No, my gear wasn't stuck in a route (it was actually left in the toilet block at Symonds Yat).
I suppose each case is different, and generally stuff found on routes is more fair game than collections of gear at the bottom, etc. But I don't think its black and white - the gear may appear abandoned but it's not hard to think of scenarios where the climbers couldn't get it back straightaway. If I retreated off a route while night was falling, having had to use a cam as back up, I'd be back early the next day if possible to get it back. If it wasn't there I'd try the forums to see if anyone had been honest enough to post up about it.
What bothers me is the default attitude of some climbers that anything not actually attended at the time is "crag swag", and I don't think your distinction of stuck in a route or not would apply with these people - they'd just have it anyway.
No, my gear wasn't stuck in a route (it was actually left in the toilet block at Symonds Yat).
I suppose each case is different, and generally stuff found on routes is more fair game than collections of gear at the bottom, etc. But I don't think its black and white - the gear may appear abandoned but it's not hard to think of scenarios where the climbers couldn't get it back straightaway. If I retreated off a route while night was falling, having had to use a cam as back up, I'd be back early the next day if possible to get it back. If it wasn't there I'd try the forums to see if anyone had been honest enough to post up about it.
What bothers me is the default attitude of some climbers that anything not actually attended at the time is "crag swag", and I don't think your distinction of stuck in a route or not would apply with these people - they'd just have it anyway.
In reply to bpmclimb:
As I have explained in this thread that is simply not the case.
However if you abandoned a cam on a retreating off a route then that is fair game.
As I have explained in this thread that is simply not the case.
However if you abandoned a cam on a retreating off a route then that is fair game.
In reply to Removed User:
?? What is simply not the case? We're talking about personal subjective opinions here, aren't we?
I agree with you on some points, but I do think that there are cases where not trying to return other people's gear is dishonest. I don't agree that it's always 100% ok to take gear found on routes, and I dislike phrases like "crag swag" which help climbers legitimize the process of taking stuff that doesn't belong to them.
If I found a shiny new cam in a placement near the bottom of a popular climb, it would be exactly the same as if I'd found it dropped on the approach path - I'd post it up on Lost and Found. I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping it on the grounds that it was found on a route - it would be like I'd got them on a technicality.
High up on a route, needs an hour to get out, only a single nut, etc, etc -yes, no problem just keeping it. Like I said, it's not black and white.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> As I have explained in this thread that is simply not the case.
>
>
> As I have explained in this thread that is simply not the case.
>
?? What is simply not the case? We're talking about personal subjective opinions here, aren't we?
I agree with you on some points, but I do think that there are cases where not trying to return other people's gear is dishonest. I don't agree that it's always 100% ok to take gear found on routes, and I dislike phrases like "crag swag" which help climbers legitimize the process of taking stuff that doesn't belong to them.
If I found a shiny new cam in a placement near the bottom of a popular climb, it would be exactly the same as if I'd found it dropped on the approach path - I'd post it up on Lost and Found. I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping it on the grounds that it was found on a route - it would be like I'd got them on a technicality.
High up on a route, needs an hour to get out, only a single nut, etc, etc -yes, no problem just keeping it. Like I said, it's not black and white.
In reply to bpmclimb:
We're not talking about personal subjective feelings.
We're talking about established ethics.
We're not talking about personal subjective feelings.
We're talking about established ethics.
In reply to Removed User:
You seriously trying to say that there's no grey areas? I've just given an example of a hypothetical situation where ethics would differ from climber to climber. Of course there's a subjective element!
That's just my opinion, of course. Feel free to disagree
You seriously trying to say that there's no grey areas? I've just given an example of a hypothetical situation where ethics would differ from climber to climber. Of course there's a subjective element!
That's just my opinion, of course. Feel free to disagree
In reply to bpmclimb:
Of course there are grey areas but I think of the situation the other way round - if I was too idle or absent minded to take all my gear home at the end of the day, I wouldn't *expect* to see it back again - with the possible exception of the guidebook. Greatif gear did come back, but I wouldn't necessarily be branding someone who found it a thief if it didn't.
Of course there are grey areas but I think of the situation the other way round - if I was too idle or absent minded to take all my gear home at the end of the day, I wouldn't *expect* to see it back again - with the possible exception of the guidebook. Greatif gear did come back, but I wouldn't necessarily be branding someone who found it a thief if it didn't.
In reply to Removed User:
Thats a rubbish justification, I can accept some of the arguments that float around on this but this one is a particularly poor one. We didn't always have such easy ways to communicate to a large audience.
> We're talking about established ethics.
Thats a rubbish justification, I can accept some of the arguments that float around on this but this one is a particularly poor one. We didn't always have such easy ways to communicate to a large audience.
In reply to Fantasian:
I found a red bd c4 cam last year in Californias high sierras. It was just sitting nicely in a crack, hardly stuck (took maybe 15 seconds to free), just sitting there.
It's fairly new looking without too much wear and I use it on a regular basis without much thought.
I found a red bd c4 cam last year in Californias high sierras. It was just sitting nicely in a crack, hardly stuck (took maybe 15 seconds to free), just sitting there.
It's fairly new looking without too much wear and I use it on a regular basis without much thought.
In reply to petellis: Battery powered drills haven't always been available. Now they are does that mean we should be bolting everything up then?
No it does not because there is an established ethic
No it does not because there is an established ethic
In reply to Fantasian: Oh dear Pete, who'd have thought you'd cause quite such an ethical storm...
Anyway, while at the bottom of said climb (while the op was busy removing his ill-gotten cam) I found a nut, which incidentally I haven't advertised as being lost either. My question; does this therefore make me
a) less morally corrupt than the op because its only a nut and 'noone would bother advertising for a lone nut'
b) Worse than the op because it was just lying on the ground. I didnt have to hang around on an E3 trying to jiggle it out and so am in no way 'entitled' to it...
c) Is it just karma because I lost a nut at anglezarke a few months ago and noone returned that to me...? (Btw, if anyone found a no6 WC rock on fools gold at anglezarke a few months ago pls let me know....)
Anyway, while at the bottom of said climb (while the op was busy removing his ill-gotten cam) I found a nut, which incidentally I haven't advertised as being lost either. My question; does this therefore make me
a) less morally corrupt than the op because its only a nut and 'noone would bother advertising for a lone nut'
b) Worse than the op because it was just lying on the ground. I didnt have to hang around on an E3 trying to jiggle it out and so am in no way 'entitled' to it...
c) Is it just karma because I lost a nut at anglezarke a few months ago and noone returned that to me...? (Btw, if anyone found a no6 WC rock on fools gold at anglezarke a few months ago pls let me know....)
In reply to riichar:
Unfortunately, the ethics aren't clearly established enough for anyone to give absolute definitive answers to those questions (despite arguments to the contrary). People can give their subjective opinions, say what they would do, but at the end of the day it's your call.
Unfortunately, the ethics aren't clearly established enough for anyone to give absolute definitive answers to those questions (despite arguments to the contrary). People can give their subjective opinions, say what they would do, but at the end of the day it's your call.
In reply to Removed User:
That's a poor analogy for your case, IMO. Despite being a damn sight more established as a code of ethics (written down for every crag in the country) it's still definitely not 100% - there's still hot debate about certain climbs/crags.
That's a poor analogy for your case, IMO. Despite being a damn sight more established as a code of ethics (written down for every crag in the country) it's still definitely not 100% - there's still hot debate about certain climbs/crags.
In reply to Removed User:
I would agree there is a difference, and what you do about it is up to you, but I don't agree with your argument around "We're talking about established ethics". It comes down to a personal decision.
If you leave gear you will do so in the knowledge that you probably wont get it back. That doesn't mean that you don't appreciate it when you do get it returned.
I found a cam last week the day after it was left by a second who couldn't retrieve it. A post on Scottish Climbs now means it will be going back to its owner. Under your "established ethics" I should have kept it. I suppose that is the same argument had I been there the same day and successfully extracted the cam when following them up or after they had been forced to retreat and had consigned themselves to abandeoning it. Such "established ethics" would say it was fine to keep it even though they were still there, but had given up on extracting it?
Well, it is a personal thing and most of us are inconsistent in its application, myself included. I'd give it back if I thought I'd have a chance of successfully reuniting the owner with the gear. Had it been a single nut? Well I've often asked people I've know who were climbing at the venue and returned stuff, but not bothered to post or make any attempt to track down the owner further than this. Inconsistent, yes, but I'm not going to argue that there is an established ethic. I aslo see why others accept it as "crag booty".
> (In reply to bpmclimb) Oh dear. It appears you are oversimplifying the situation to suit your polarized views.
>
> The OP mentions the 'We've all found the odd thing stuck in a crag, a nut here or there'.
>
> We can thus safely assume he is talking about abandoned gear on route, not gear that was lost/left by accident at the crag.
>
> I am sure you would agree there is a difference.
>
> The OP mentions the 'We've all found the odd thing stuck in a crag, a nut here or there'.
>
> We can thus safely assume he is talking about abandoned gear on route, not gear that was lost/left by accident at the crag.
>
> I am sure you would agree there is a difference.
I would agree there is a difference, and what you do about it is up to you, but I don't agree with your argument around "We're talking about established ethics". It comes down to a personal decision.
If you leave gear you will do so in the knowledge that you probably wont get it back. That doesn't mean that you don't appreciate it when you do get it returned.
I found a cam last week the day after it was left by a second who couldn't retrieve it. A post on Scottish Climbs now means it will be going back to its owner. Under your "established ethics" I should have kept it. I suppose that is the same argument had I been there the same day and successfully extracted the cam when following them up or after they had been forced to retreat and had consigned themselves to abandeoning it. Such "established ethics" would say it was fine to keep it even though they were still there, but had given up on extracting it?
Well, it is a personal thing and most of us are inconsistent in its application, myself included. I'd give it back if I thought I'd have a chance of successfully reuniting the owner with the gear. Had it been a single nut? Well I've often asked people I've know who were climbing at the venue and returned stuff, but not bothered to post or make any attempt to track down the owner further than this. Inconsistent, yes, but I'm not going to argue that there is an established ethic. I aslo see why others accept it as "crag booty".
In reply to RossJ: Agreed with a lot of that.
What IS outrageous are the accusations of thievery that fly about concerning abandoned gear on routes. If you want to return it too its owner I say good on you, but if it is claimed as booty it is not bloody theft.
What IS outrageous are the accusations of thievery that fly about concerning abandoned gear on routes. If you want to return it too its owner I say good on you, but if it is claimed as booty it is not bloody theft.
In reply to Removed User:
Well technically it isn't yours to keep.
It comes down to the effort you as an individual care to take to return it to the owner. So there is no "right" for a finder to claim it as theirs and it is better to return it where we can easily do so. I'm not about to go down a route of how much effort makes it acceptable or that finding abandeoned gear gives a person the right to lay claim to it.
Right, need to get away from this pc and go climbing
Well technically it isn't yours to keep.
It comes down to the effort you as an individual care to take to return it to the owner. So there is no "right" for a finder to claim it as theirs and it is better to return it where we can easily do so. I'm not about to go down a route of how much effort makes it acceptable or that finding abandeoned gear gives a person the right to lay claim to it.
Right, need to get away from this pc and go climbing
In reply to Removed User:
If you take something that doesn't belong to you and keep it, even if it was unattended, you are a thief, by legal definition. In order to avoid being a thief, you need to be 100% sure that the gear is genuinely abandoned.
Therefore if there's any doubt at all, then climbers should post up and make some effort to return it. It's the decent thing to do, and doesn't take any appreciable effort. If the gear is genuinely abandoned then presumably the owner won't be trying to retrieve it, and you get to keep it anyway. If there's no doubt in the first place, then by all means keep it.
Seems quite simple to me. I don't see what the song and dance is about.
> (In reply to RossJ) Agreed with a lot of that.
>
> What IS outrageous are the accusations of thievery that fly about concerning abandoned gear on routes.
>
> What IS outrageous are the accusations of thievery that fly about concerning abandoned gear on routes.
If you take something that doesn't belong to you and keep it, even if it was unattended, you are a thief, by legal definition. In order to avoid being a thief, you need to be 100% sure that the gear is genuinely abandoned.
Therefore if there's any doubt at all, then climbers should post up and make some effort to return it. It's the decent thing to do, and doesn't take any appreciable effort. If the gear is genuinely abandoned then presumably the owner won't be trying to retrieve it, and you get to keep it anyway. If there's no doubt in the first place, then by all means keep it.
Seems quite simple to me. I don't see what the song and dance is about.
In reply to Fantasian: The odd nut I keep any thing above £10 in value I would advertise, but that's just my point.
In reply to bpmclimb:
If i get a cam out after an hour or so of working out how to get it out, then its mine - simple. If it just pops out fairly easily then i will post up on lost and found.
If i get a cam out after an hour or so of working out how to get it out, then its mine - simple. If it just pops out fairly easily then i will post up on lost and found.
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