UKC

Hi,

My partner and I are learning to climb at the moment. So far we have done an introduction to climbing course on an indoor wall that has taught us how to set up a harness, belay via a top rope and lower each other down. Our plan is to go away in the spring sport climbing, prior to learning trad climbing in this country when the weather picks up.

My question now, is what sort of course should we do prior to going away and leading on sports routes. I've found one course which seems to think it can teach this is 1.5 hours (2:1 ratio). Would this seem about right? I'd really appreciate anybodys opions or personal expereiences to make sure we take the correct and safest route.

Many thanks!

In reply to chris1982: There are a lot of skills that combine to make climbing, if you are going to make sure this next step in your climbing career is safe then 90mins seems a little short.
Aspects of sport climbing you may not have experienced indoors include, route selection, lower off anchors (rings-pbolts-crabs etc), rope management, retreating from a route, reading a guidebook etc.

There are a whole bunch of extra abilities you will develop outdoors sports climbing one or two days should give you a solid grounding to allow you to confidently strike out on your own.

In reply to chris1982:

If you've done top roping indoors, then I'd say the most logical progression is to lead climbing indoors.

There's all the stuff mentioned above, but if you're not leading, and lead belaying yet that's probably another step.

In reply to chris1982:

I may get shot down for this, but 1.5 hours seems fine to teach the basics. All you really need to know is how to clip quickdraws, and how to safely lower off at the top. Frankly, you can learn this from a book or website (there are some good tips on this site - for example http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=265 ) and practice on an indoor wall, then just go out to climb.

Your profile doesn't say where you are based, but places like Portland and Swanage on the south coast are ideal for getting a taste of rock at the easier grades.

As long as you are sensible, think things through, always err on the side of caution and are open to advice then you should be ok.

I would think that the vast majority of climbers in the UK who have been climbing for over 5 years have never been on a course.

Tiberius@ When you say that lead climbing indoors would be the natural progression, would this not be what I would be capable of doing after completing a sport leading course? Excuse me if I'm being a bit stupid, this is all fairly new to me!

In reply to chris1982:

*old skool warning*

You don't need to go on a course to lead climb, especially on bolted routes. However, if you are a bit unhappy about the basics of knots and clipping, then 1.5 hours is plenty long enough. That should see you safe enough, then its up to you as to whether to pay for coaching or whether you just want to get on with it.

In reply to chris1982:

When most people refer to sport climbing they mean bolt-protected climbing outdoors. Anything indoors is normally kept under a seperate label of 'indoors' or 'at the wall'. Obviously if you have done a course outdoors, then that will cover more than enough to lead climb indoors.

So, for an indoor leading course, I would think that 1.5 hours would be fairly comprehensive. Again, all you need to know is the correct way of clipping a quickdraw, to try to clip at waist height, not to let the rope go behind your leg. Belaying a leader well is probably the most important thing to learn. Do be aware though, that indoor leaading is very different to outdoors and it is worth asking your instructor some specific questions about that if you do a course indoors.

Again - I think that courses are very good, but not necessarily essential.

Thank you everybody (I have updated my profile now). I have wondered whether with care and thought, if climbing single pitch bolted routes is really beyond us now. The only aspect I don't feel fully comfortable with is how to set up things when I reach the top before I abseil down.

Thank you for all your input I really appreciate it.

In reply to chris1982:It depends on the client - I could easily teach a super keen psyched teenager who leads 7b indoors and spends all his time watching climbing DVDs and reading climbing magazines enough in 1.5 hours for him to go sport climbing very effectively.

Equally I could teach lots of other people the skills they need in that time, but they would not nearly be in a position to apply them either effectively or confidently.


You don't say which climbing wall you use and how regularly you climb?

Be aware that for some people 'easy' trad climbing is actually a better starting point than 'easy' sport climbing. Even easy sport climbing is actually reasonably tricky and you need to be at a fairly respectable standard before routes get steep enough that lead falls become really safe. However easy trad climbing can be REALLY easy so whilst possibly scarier the chances of actually falling can often be negligible.

One option to progress could be as follows:

Go on an indoor learn to lead course
[Lots of people don't do courses but, then lots of people lead climb and belay very poorly.)
Do lots of indoor leading
[Climbing once per week is good, but after an initial period climbing twice or three times per week for 4-6 weeks will produce big gains in performance.]
Climb with some other climbers or perhaps get some coaching
Climb more and work on weaknesses
Go on a one day outdoor sport climbing course (or read some books and go out with other experienced climbers)
Go sport climbing

Another possible option;

Wait until the Spring
Do a one week trad climbing course
Buy some gear
Go trad climbing on easy routes

A final option:

Find some other climbers or a club to climb with
Gradually pick things up over a longer period as you don't need to worry initially about leading or needing to know every thing.

In reply to GrahamD:

No, you don't NEED to go on a course. When I climbed in the 1980's I'm not sure they even existed, we just turned up at cow and calf above Ilkley and got on with it.

But, a little instruction in how to clip, what to do if you backclip, what to do if you accidentally take the rope from below your previous clip etc is helpfull, and for the cost of a 2 hour lesson, I don't know why anyone wouldn't.

Lead belaying is probably the most involved. Getting used to giving and taking rope etc. Mostly it's for the comfort of the lead climber. I've been belayed by people who are good at it, and by a very heavy beginner...I'd pay myself to send my belayer on a course.

Of course, trad climbing is a whole other sport...but still there's a few things worth picking up for even sport climbing.

In reply to chris1982:

Yes, I was just saying it's an easy next step. Leading is different to top-roping (lead belaying even more different than belaying top rope), so it's a logical step to do it in the environment you're used to.

Seems that I've got my wires crossed here - sorry, I thought that when I saw people lead climbing at the indoor walls, that this was the same as outdoor sports climbing.

I'll go back through the books I've got and get myself booked on an indoor course, and an outdoor sports climbing course.

Thanks for all your input!

In reply to chris1982:

<The only aspect I don't feel fully comfortable with is how to set up things when I reach the top before I abseil down.>

Presumably inadvertently, you've just touched on one of the details that it's vital to get right when moving outside, in particular to sport climbing.

I'm sure you will have noticed at the wall that when people get to the top when leading, they clip the top anchor and then lower back down; they don't abseil (I'm assuming you know the difference between abseiling and lowering). This is normal sport climbing practice, with the added complication outside of possibly needing to untie at the top to thread the rope through particular types of (non-clippable) anchors to avoid abandoning gear when moving on to another route or going home; this is probably the most dangerous part of sport climbing, and you should definitely seek advice as to the safe procedure, together with the underlying general principles, so you know exactly what to do at the top BEFORE leaving the ground. Sport routes, therefore, are generally set up with a lower-off anchor no more than half a standard ropelength above the ground - ie 30 metres, with 60m being (at the moment) pretty much the standard length of a sport rope (though in some areas, generally abroad, route lengths are creeping up, with 70m, 80m and longer ropes becoming commonplace). Sometimes, for various reasons, one might choose to depart from normal procedure by abseiling rather than lowering off, which involves threading and pulling half of the rope through the anchor after your partner has TAKEN YOU OFF BELAY. I'm shouting here because throughout your climbing career, and in an effort to prolong it, those four words or anything similar should always ring alarm bells; it's the time to pause in what you're doing and make sure that everybody involved knows exactly what's happening, and that it's definitely the right course of action, before proceeding.

Which sort of brings us back to where I started. If it's not clear beforehand between leader and belayer what the intended procedure at the top is going to be, or if something unforseen dictates a change of plan which is not then properly communicated, the seeds will have been sewn for a potential accident; if the leader starts lowering after his misinformed belayer, expecting an abseil, has taken him off belay, the result will quite probably be fatal. I think I'm right in saying that most of the nastier accidents in sport climbing - regarded erroneously by many as a "safe" pursuit - have involved a lack of proper communication at this lower off/abseil stage. So when you're leading, make sure your belayer knows exactly what you're intending to do, and what you expect them to do; and when you're belaying, watch your leader like a hawk, especially when they've reached the anchor, and question at length any apparent request to be taken off belay (which may come in the form of the innocuously, and sometimes unintentionally, shouted "Safe!"), only complying when you're absolutely certain that you have no further part to play in your leader's continued survival.

In reply to chris1982:

It basically is. The only real difference is that outside you need your own quickdraws , the bolts are farther apart, and you really need to know how to lower off safely from the top. The link I posted earlier is good, but all you really need to think at every stage is "am I safely attached to the rope and to the bolts?"

In reply to Ian Parsons: Sorry really poor use of the word 'abseil'. I did indeed mean lower me down. Thank you for the comprehensive answer, I now have a better understanding of the procedure that should be followed, but I will certainly be taking more instruction before going any further.

I wasn't aware that an option on reaching the top, would be to take yourself off belay and abseil (correct use of the word this time) down. At this stage in my climbing career I can't really see what purpose that would serve, but I'm sure it will all become clear in the future.

Thank you everybody for being patient whilst offering your opinions.

In reply to chris1982:
>
>

On the vast majority of routes it offers no real advantage. However, if you are on routes with more than 1 pitch, or routes over half the length of your rope (and you have another rope with you) then you could abseil. As I said though, generally this isn't necessary, and I don't think I have ever abseiled off a single pitch sport route.

In reply to chris1982:
It is extremly unlikely that you will encounter this Chris, but a time when you may want to abseil rather than be lowered from a single pitch sport route is if the rope is running over a sharp edge (not likely to happen on a well bolted route). If you were to be lowered off the rope would run over this edge (unlikely to break, but could damage to rope). by abseiling the rope remains static as you move down it, reducing the amount of damage to the rope.
I think you definately have enough time to learn what you need to know before a trip in the spring. Once you start leading indoors you will find that some walls have routes you can lead while placing your own quickdraws (i.e. they just have the hangers in place, but no draw). Also some even have an example lower off down at ground level so you can practice how to thread the rope safely without actually being 50ft off the ground.
hope you have an awesome trip!

In reply to chris1982:


For the time being, until you've acquired the experience to be more critically aware of what other climbers around you are doing, I wouldn't regard it as an option; keep things simple, and stick to lowering off. A few people, not many, do it almost as a matter of course, so it may be something you'll encounter as a belayer before doing it yourself. In addition to the reasons given above, it's usually done in situations where the lower-off has been set up badly enough to severely twist/kink the rope; your bodyweight magnifies this when lowering, but when pulled through after an abseil - ie with nothing more than the rope's own weight on it - the twisting effect is less. You don't get this problem at climbing walls because the anchors tend to be set up in a standard, proven configuration by people who know what they're doing; this isn't always the case outside, where also the choice of individual bolt position may be limited by rock quality - with certain lower-offs it's primarily the relative position of individually threaded bolts that determines the presence or lack of a twisting effect.

But worrying about the longevity of your kit is a luxury you can put off until you're certain you know how to look after yourself!

In reply to chris1982: One thing I would recommend is that if you go away, try and do so with some other more experienced climbers... This has lots of advantages...
1. They may well know the area and can help you with route choice.
2. They can watch you and help with things like lowering off.
3. If they climb with you, you get the chance to try seconding a harder route or two.
4. You get the chance to watch how they do things.
5. If you end up on a route that is too hard for you, they can probably help!
6. You get someone else to drink with!

Seriously, my first trip away was with a mate and neither of us had been sport climbing abroad before. We had a great time, but having been away many times since, I've always had a better time, done more and learnt more when away with better/more experienced climbers...

Andy

Thank you everybody, I've certainly learnt a lot from this thread.

I've booked a half day course for me and my other half so I'll see how we feel after that. But this has definitely got the old brain working on all the different elements to think about - thanks!!