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A common routesetting set-up is self-belaying on a top-rope with a grigri whilst using a shunt on a second line as backup.
A bit of internet searching shows that in the rope-access industry the shunt is a controversial device for fall-arrest usage.
Presumably in routesetting any fall distances will be relatively small and as long as the shunt is being operated correctly there is little risk.
Is there a better backup device available than the shunt? Internet searching seems to suggest that virtually all backup devices have some sort of flaw.
A bit of internet searching shows that in the rope-access industry the shunt is a controversial device for fall-arrest usage.
Presumably in routesetting any fall distances will be relatively small and as long as the shunt is being operated correctly there is little risk.
Is there a better backup device available than the shunt? Internet searching seems to suggest that virtually all backup devices have some sort of flaw.
In reply to Alan_2468:
no, it works on a smooth cam.
if you shock load a jammer with teeth it will more than likely shear your rope.
the shunt is the industry standard at the moment, if you know how to use it correctly i cant see why it you would look elsewhere (for your intended application).
what have you read other wise? considering you wont be looking at rescue loading ect...
no, it works on a smooth cam.
if you shock load a jammer with teeth it will more than likely shear your rope.
the shunt is the industry standard at the moment, if you know how to use it correctly i cant see why it you would look elsewhere (for your intended application).
what have you read other wise? considering you wont be looking at rescue loading ect...
In reply to twoplates:
See:
http://araa.net.au/directory_downloads/Petzl%20SHUNT%20-%20usage.pdf
http://www.irata.org/pdf_word/Petz_%20Shunt_statement.pdf
Petzl seems to be trying to steer people in the direction of the ASAP.
Have you any experience of the ASAP compared with the shunt? It is a lot more expensive.
See:
http://araa.net.au/directory_downloads/Petzl%20SHUNT%20-%20usage.pdf
http://www.irata.org/pdf_word/Petz_%20Shunt_statement.pdf
Petzl seems to be trying to steer people in the direction of the ASAP.
Have you any experience of the ASAP compared with the shunt? It is a lot more expensive.
In reply to Alan_2468:
i see....
no i have never used an asap
basically they are saying they dont want to sign it off as suitable because it has no anti panic function.
nothing is idiot proof, as long as you understand how it works and use it properly it will perform as such.
i wouldnt spend any extra cash on the asap personally.
i see....
no i have never used an asap
basically they are saying they dont want to sign it off as suitable because it has no anti panic function.
nothing is idiot proof, as long as you understand how it works and use it properly it will perform as such.
i wouldnt spend any extra cash on the asap personally.
In reply to Alan_2468:
Nothing wrong with the Shunt, just remember to use a bit of cord to pull it down the rope and the cows tail to pull it up. It has the added advantage of two channels, which makes retrieving your ropes much easier.
Nothing wrong with the Shunt, just remember to use a bit of cord to pull it down the rope and the cows tail to pull it up. It has the added advantage of two channels, which makes retrieving your ropes much easier.
In reply to MJ:
I've used the Shunt and quite liked it. I'm interested to know if there is anything better out there.
Just looked at more detail on ASAP. It has teeth on the cam and it is suggested it is used with an energy absorbing lanyard.
What about the Troll/ISC Rocker compared to the shunt? Any better/worse?
I've used the Shunt and quite liked it. I'm interested to know if there is anything better out there.
Just looked at more detail on ASAP. It has teeth on the cam and it is suggested it is used with an energy absorbing lanyard.
What about the Troll/ISC Rocker compared to the shunt? Any better/worse?
In reply to Alan_2468:
I don't think it would really be fair to say the Shunt is controversial exactly, it has been the industry standard device for that job for many years.
But it does need to be used with care - the problem is that it needs to be 'towed' down the rope when descending, and because of the natural reflex to grab at things in a fall it would be possible for someone to inadvertently prevent it from working in the event of a fall.
Roped access folks have various strategies involving bits of skinny cord to tow the Shunt down as they descend whilst minimising the risk of grabbing it or dragging it down in the event of a fall.
The Manta has a mechanism quite similar to a Rocker (another possible device for this job, btw) but its more 'grabby'. Like a Shunt it needs to be towed down, but its designed for this - it has a cord attached to an 'R' clip on a little bollard in the device; the clip will detach if its pulled hard. I've seen a Manta, and had a brief play with it, but never used one in anger. From what I've seen, it looks very good.
I've used an ASAP a fair bit in conjunction with a fixed rope to protect work on ladders, structures and wotnot. (In effect industrial TR soloing.) Its very good indeed for that application, because it needs no attention in descent (leaving both of the users' hands free for climbing), and unlike a Shunt, it'll still work if the user grabs it. (Particularly useful in this case because of the users' relative inexperience - the Shunt was deemed unsuitable and before the ASAP came along the Rocker was always the device of choice, but it was never ideal.)
Based on my (fairly limited) knowledge, I don't think I'd really recommend the ASAP for route setting. I'd be more likely to stick with a Shunt, or use a Rocker. I guess a Manta would be good too, when they become available. (If you want to know more about the Manta, your best bet might be to email 'riddle' through his profile on here.)
I don't think it would really be fair to say the Shunt is controversial exactly, it has been the industry standard device for that job for many years.
But it does need to be used with care - the problem is that it needs to be 'towed' down the rope when descending, and because of the natural reflex to grab at things in a fall it would be possible for someone to inadvertently prevent it from working in the event of a fall.
Roped access folks have various strategies involving bits of skinny cord to tow the Shunt down as they descend whilst minimising the risk of grabbing it or dragging it down in the event of a fall.
The Manta has a mechanism quite similar to a Rocker (another possible device for this job, btw) but its more 'grabby'. Like a Shunt it needs to be towed down, but its designed for this - it has a cord attached to an 'R' clip on a little bollard in the device; the clip will detach if its pulled hard. I've seen a Manta, and had a brief play with it, but never used one in anger. From what I've seen, it looks very good.
I've used an ASAP a fair bit in conjunction with a fixed rope to protect work on ladders, structures and wotnot. (In effect industrial TR soloing.) Its very good indeed for that application, because it needs no attention in descent (leaving both of the users' hands free for climbing), and unlike a Shunt, it'll still work if the user grabs it. (Particularly useful in this case because of the users' relative inexperience - the Shunt was deemed unsuitable and before the ASAP came along the Rocker was always the device of choice, but it was never ideal.)
Based on my (fairly limited) knowledge, I don't think I'd really recommend the ASAP for route setting. I'd be more likely to stick with a Shunt, or use a Rocker. I guess a Manta would be good too, when they become available. (If you want to know more about the Manta, your best bet might be to email 'riddle' through his profile on here.)
In reply to Alan_2468:
Neither better nor worse, probably.
Roped access type people would probably prefer the Shunt because they're generally more familiar with them. I'd most likely choose a Rocker for exactly the same reason.
> What about the Troll/ISC Rocker compared to the shunt? Any better/worse?
Neither better nor worse, probably.
Roped access type people would probably prefer the Shunt because they're generally more familiar with them. I'd most likely choose a Rocker for exactly the same reason.
In reply to deepsoup: Why is the Manta not available to by purchased individually and how long before they can?
I'm in the process of looking for a device for self-belay on a fixed line, but i'm seeing more and more bad things documented about the shunt (the device suggested by dave macleod in one of his ebooks).
Is there much in it between the Manta and Rocker (ISC or SAR?)? Take a look at this drop test between the Shunt and Manta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3x9-FIU44g&feature=player_embedded
Scary..
I'm in the process of looking for a device for self-belay on a fixed line, but i'm seeing more and more bad things documented about the shunt (the device suggested by dave macleod in one of his ebooks).
Is there much in it between the Manta and Rocker (ISC or SAR?)? Take a look at this drop test between the Shunt and Manta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3x9-FIU44g&feature=player_embedded
Scary..
In reply to cha1n: I have never seen any shunt perform like that before. It looks like they dropped it with the shunt already under some tension, which means that it can fail a bit like a grigri - IIRC needs to be shock loaded to grip hard.
In reply to stewieatb:
Possibly, I'm not sure. I also read somewhere that 200KG is pretty close to it's weight limit too.
Manta looks good though, right?
Possibly, I'm not sure. I also read somewhere that 200KG is pretty close to it's weight limit too.
Manta looks good though, right?
In reply to cha1n:
I don't know, but I guess the Manta isn't properly on the market yet just because its new and it takes ages to get a new gizmo into the shops.
That's a *seriously* harsh test - 200kg dropped onto a slack cowtail. (A 400mm drop onto an 800mm cowtail - I don't think 'fall factor' is particularly meaningful the way its given there.) The Manta comes out of that looking very impressive indeed. But then of course the film is intended to promote it, so you'd expect that to some extent.
It wouldn't worry me particularly if I were looking to use a Shunt for TR soloing, its a different situation and you'd have to be pretty creative about fecking things up to generate anything like that kind of load. I've never used one myself, but the Shunt is well tried and tested in that situation.
The Manta looks nice but I haven't had a proper play with it, so can't offer an opinion. I have used a Rocker a fair bit for TR solo, and I quite like it (though I don't think I'll ever be happy falling onto *any* device in that situation, maybe I'm just a wuss). I'm just guessing here, but no, I doubt there's all that much in it between Manta and Rocker.
Incidentally, the Rocker was always made by ISC. They used to make them exclusively for Troll when their kit was still manufacturered in the UK.
SAR was set up by Dave & Dorene Allport after they were made redundant from Troll (he originally designed a lot of their gear) when it was bought out and the Uppermill factory was closed down.
I don't know, but I guess the Manta isn't properly on the market yet just because its new and it takes ages to get a new gizmo into the shops.
That's a *seriously* harsh test - 200kg dropped onto a slack cowtail. (A 400mm drop onto an 800mm cowtail - I don't think 'fall factor' is particularly meaningful the way its given there.) The Manta comes out of that looking very impressive indeed. But then of course the film is intended to promote it, so you'd expect that to some extent.
It wouldn't worry me particularly if I were looking to use a Shunt for TR soloing, its a different situation and you'd have to be pretty creative about fecking things up to generate anything like that kind of load. I've never used one myself, but the Shunt is well tried and tested in that situation.
The Manta looks nice but I haven't had a proper play with it, so can't offer an opinion. I have used a Rocker a fair bit for TR solo, and I quite like it (though I don't think I'll ever be happy falling onto *any* device in that situation, maybe I'm just a wuss). I'm just guessing here, but no, I doubt there's all that much in it between Manta and Rocker.
Incidentally, the Rocker was always made by ISC. They used to make them exclusively for Troll when their kit was still manufacturered in the UK.
SAR was set up by Dave & Dorene Allport after they were made redundant from Troll (he originally designed a lot of their gear) when it was bought out and the Uppermill factory was closed down.
In reply to Alan_2468:
I previously used the Shunt but since the DMM Buddy's arrival that is now my back up of choice when route setting. Back-ups are precisely that, a back-up in case of failure on your initial line. Fortunately I have never needed to 'test' any back up device in extemis so my choice of the Buddy is down to how much easier it is to move up or down my second line. It works in a similar way to a Rocker but if you want a closer look I believe they stock them in the shop at your favorite wall and if they don't have them in at the mo I know they could bring one from one of their other shops as I saw one only yesterday.
I previously used the Shunt but since the DMM Buddy's arrival that is now my back up of choice when route setting. Back-ups are precisely that, a back-up in case of failure on your initial line. Fortunately I have never needed to 'test' any back up device in extemis so my choice of the Buddy is down to how much easier it is to move up or down my second line. It works in a similar way to a Rocker but if you want a closer look I believe they stock them in the shop at your favorite wall and if they don't have them in at the mo I know they could bring one from one of their other shops as I saw one only yesterday.
In reply to shorts: I should have said favourite. Not favorite.
In reply to deepsoup: The main problem with the Rocker,Manta and Asap is that they all naturally fall down the rope. You have to set them by loading to minimise any potential fall distance, The shunt on the other hand stays where its put. Other problems with these devices relate to wind and arent applicable to this situation.
One thing i will mention is however the length of cowstail used to attatch the backup device. Too long and you will be on the floor before it engages.
One thing i will mention is however the length of cowstail used to attatch the backup device. Too long and you will be on the floor before it engages.
In reply to muppetfilter:
I've had a look at the Buddy. As with the Rocker, it moves fairly freely on the safety rope, so won't always be above if you fall. You can try to get it to stay above you by giving the lanyard a tug, but with any movement of the lanyard it tends to fall again.
The Manta looks promising. The Heightec video mentioned above shows the Manta outperforming the Shunt, but this is in a rescue setting with a two-person load rather than with a single person load. The product details say that it is designed to stay above the user in use, but I haven't been able to get hold of one to try as it isn't available to purchase yet.
I've had a look at the Buddy. As with the Rocker, it moves fairly freely on the safety rope, so won't always be above if you fall. You can try to get it to stay above you by giving the lanyard a tug, but with any movement of the lanyard it tends to fall again.
The Manta looks promising. The Heightec video mentioned above shows the Manta outperforming the Shunt, but this is in a rescue setting with a two-person load rather than with a single person load. The product details say that it is designed to stay above the user in use, but I haven't been able to get hold of one to try as it isn't available to purchase yet.
In reply to Alan_2468:
For the last 10 years I`ve always used a shunt and have thousands of hours on the ropes and never had any issues with them but a rocker ASAP or a Petzl B53 grab would do just fine too if you want to use something else.
(I`m Irata level 3 if that helps!)
For the last 10 years I`ve always used a shunt and have thousands of hours on the ropes and never had any issues with them but a rocker ASAP or a Petzl B53 grab would do just fine too if you want to use something else.
(I`m Irata level 3 if that helps!)
In reply to dan:
The Shunt seems to be the only currently available device that both stays above the user and has no teeth so I'll continue to use it. I don't mind having to move it on the rope. A free-flowing device may mean a longer fall distance, and I'm not keen on the idea of falling on a toothed device.
I will be taking a look at the Manta when it's released to see how it compares to the Shunt.
The Shunt seems to be the only currently available device that both stays above the user and has no teeth so I'll continue to use it. I don't mind having to move it on the rope. A free-flowing device may mean a longer fall distance, and I'm not keen on the idea of falling on a toothed device.
I will be taking a look at the Manta when it's released to see how it compares to the Shunt.
In reply to shorts:
I hadn't even heard of the DMM Buddy, it looks intriguing, glad you mentioned it.
In reply to muppetfilter:
The Rocker does. Although all but the very old ones do have a little cam that you can engage as a brake to manually set it without having to load it - with the cam engaged it behaves a little bit like a shunt in that you can move it by hand and it'll stay where you put it. (I guess if you really wanted you could also tow it down the rope with a bit of cord so it'll stay above you as you descend - I might give that a try some time and see if it works.)
The Manta and ASAP don't as far as I know.
In reply to dan:
Just out of curiosity, how rare is it for an IRATA technician to 'test' their backup (ie: fall onto it)? Have you witnessed a handful of falls in your 10 years, a few, or none at all?
I mostly work on steel structures using various fall arrest systems (Latchway and similar catenary wire type things mostly). I've been doing it about 10 years too, and I've never taken a fall at work, or witnessed one first hand. So looking at it like that, pretty much everything I have to say about industrial fall-arrest is somewhat, um... theoretical if you see what I mean.
I actually have a lot more faith in my Rocker at work since I've spent a little bit of time working gritstone routes with one on a solo toprope. At least now I know from first hand experience that it works.
I hadn't even heard of the DMM Buddy, it looks intriguing, glad you mentioned it.
In reply to muppetfilter:
> The main problem with the Rocker,Manta and Asap is that they all naturally fall down the rope. You have to set them by loading to minimise any potential fall distance, The shunt on the other hand stays where its put.
The Rocker does. Although all but the very old ones do have a little cam that you can engage as a brake to manually set it without having to load it - with the cam engaged it behaves a little bit like a shunt in that you can move it by hand and it'll stay where you put it. (I guess if you really wanted you could also tow it down the rope with a bit of cord so it'll stay above you as you descend - I might give that a try some time and see if it works.)
The Manta and ASAP don't as far as I know.
In reply to dan:
> For the last 10 years I`ve always used a shunt and have thousands of hours on the ropes and never had any issues with them..
Just out of curiosity, how rare is it for an IRATA technician to 'test' their backup (ie: fall onto it)? Have you witnessed a handful of falls in your 10 years, a few, or none at all?
I mostly work on steel structures using various fall arrest systems (Latchway and similar catenary wire type things mostly). I've been doing it about 10 years too, and I've never taken a fall at work, or witnessed one first hand. So looking at it like that, pretty much everything I have to say about industrial fall-arrest is somewhat, um... theoretical if you see what I mean.
I actually have a lot more faith in my Rocker at work since I've spent a little bit of time working gritstone routes with one on a solo toprope. At least now I know from first hand experience that it works.
In reply to deepsoup:
When i was training in Nigera we would demonstrate what happens with a shunt at waist level and simply open up a stop. You go roughly 3 meters including the length of cowstail. This was on a relatively near the top of the working rope, Imagine the length of fall with 5% rope stretch added as well.
> Just out of curiosity, how rare is it for an IRATA technician to 'test' their backup (ie: fall onto it)? Have you witnessed a handful of falls in your 10 years, a few, or none at all?
When i was training in Nigera we would demonstrate what happens with a shunt at waist level and simply open up a stop. You go roughly 3 meters including the length of cowstail. This was on a relatively near the top of the working rope, Imagine the length of fall with 5% rope stretch added as well.
In reply to deepsoup:
I`ve only taken one un-planned fall on to a shunt,I was stood on the road deck of the second seven crossing bridge chatting to my mate,got ready to ascend up but because of all the chatting forgot to pull the stretch of my working rope through my jammers,stepped off the bridge and fell the length of my cowstail plus a couple meters of stretch under the bridge much to the amusement of said mate that was a propper brown trouser moment!!
If you are stationarry on the rope working,its best to slip the shunt up your saftey rope as high as you can reach so there is a smaller fall,also as you ascend the rope pulling the slack through the Gri-Gri if you tie the slack coming from the Gri-Gri using a clove hitch to your connecting crab then climb a bit more then pull the slack through the clove hitch you have a kinda second failsafe if you know what I mean.
I`ve only taken one un-planned fall on to a shunt,I was stood on the road deck of the second seven crossing bridge chatting to my mate,got ready to ascend up but because of all the chatting forgot to pull the stretch of my working rope through my jammers,stepped off the bridge and fell the length of my cowstail plus a couple meters of stretch under the bridge much to the amusement of said mate that was a propper brown trouser moment!!
If you are stationarry on the rope working,its best to slip the shunt up your saftey rope as high as you can reach so there is a smaller fall,also as you ascend the rope pulling the slack through the Gri-Gri if you tie the slack coming from the Gri-Gri using a clove hitch to your connecting crab then climb a bit more then pull the slack through the clove hitch you have a kinda second failsafe if you know what I mean.
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