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Hi everyone,
I just wanted to publicly express my disappointment at the recent East versus West competition.
Let me begin by saying that the quality of the problems in both the Mile End and the Westway rounds was superb and the setters should be commended.
However, the organisation of the competition was awful.
The scores between the winners of the men's easy and hard categories were mixed together, weighting it in favour of the easy category. Who can judge who enters which? One chap who entered the hard category in the first week (and did well), swapped to the easy category the second week and won over his peers climbing the harder problems! A junior girl who by all accounts was cheating shamelessly, was allowed to claim one of the top three prizes despite not having even tried most of the problems. The organisers ignored peoples complaints over this.
Finally, we were told that to win the team prize, you had to have the best score over both rounds. My team was in second place at the end of The Mile End round (prizes were deferred until the average score from round 2 was to be taken into account). At the end of round two, we had the highest average score for both rounds. Despite this, the organisers at the Westway decided to change the rules and award the first and second place to teams who had only been present for round 2.
I resent having paid the entrance fee to a wall in which I have membership when the comp was this badly organised. The scores will probably never even go up online.
Richard
I just wanted to publicly express my disappointment at the recent East versus West competition.
Let me begin by saying that the quality of the problems in both the Mile End and the Westway rounds was superb and the setters should be commended.
However, the organisation of the competition was awful.
The scores between the winners of the men's easy and hard categories were mixed together, weighting it in favour of the easy category. Who can judge who enters which? One chap who entered the hard category in the first week (and did well), swapped to the easy category the second week and won over his peers climbing the harder problems! A junior girl who by all accounts was cheating shamelessly, was allowed to claim one of the top three prizes despite not having even tried most of the problems. The organisers ignored peoples complaints over this.
Finally, we were told that to win the team prize, you had to have the best score over both rounds. My team was in second place at the end of The Mile End round (prizes were deferred until the average score from round 2 was to be taken into account). At the end of round two, we had the highest average score for both rounds. Despite this, the organisers at the Westway decided to change the rules and award the first and second place to teams who had only been present for round 2.
I resent having paid the entrance fee to a wall in which I have membership when the comp was this badly organised. The scores will probably never even go up online.
Richard
In reply to Castleclimber: Never mind, did they give you a sweet to make you feel better?
No, that at least would be something
Especially jelly babies, I love jelly babies. But nowt. I'm just hoping that some of the others who feel the same (and there are many) might post on here to share their annoyance.
Otherwise I'm going to end up looking like a bit of a pleb...
Especially jelly babies, I love jelly babies. But nowt. I'm just hoping that some of the others who feel the same (and there are many) might post on here to share their annoyance.
Otherwise I'm going to end up looking like a bit of a pleb...
In reply to Castleclimber: Carrot cake, that's what you need.
It's ironic you said that. I'm highly allergic to Carrot. Epi pens at the ready.
In reply to Castleclimber: Did you voice your concerns to the organisers at the time? If so I'd be interested to hear what they had to say.
In reply to Castleclimber: Thanks for your comments on the East meets West Competition. Sorry to hear that you felt it badly organised. As the person responsible for the Mile End Round I'd like to try to answer your points.
The competition has always combined the scores of the two categories. When we started the comp we felt that we wanted it to be fun and accessible and not just about the hardest climber winning. This unfortunately means that it is open to people not acting in the spirit of the comp and deliberately placing themselves in the easier category in order to win. The 1st place winner at Mile End did the easier problems and gained more points than anyone else, but swapped his prize with the person in second place who had done the harder problems. This was a good gesture of sportsmanship and we felt it was in keeping with the spirit of the competition.
Thanks for the positive comments on the routes and I'll make sure that the routesetter get this feedback too.
With regard to the cheating. It is always a problem with a self marking/judging. We have seen some very talented and less talented climbers cheat over the years, we always try to sort this out on the day but unless we see it as it happens it is difficult to address. Getting judges for comps is quite hard and in most cases uneccessary, but as usual there will always be those who spoil it for others by cheating.
The only thing I can't give you an answer to at the moment is why the rules were changed regarding the Team competition at the Westway but I will look into that and try to get an answer.
Finally we posted the results online within days of the Mile End round www.mileendwall.org.uk and will update them with the round 2 results asap.
Hope this goes some way to providing a few answers.
Dean
The competition has always combined the scores of the two categories. When we started the comp we felt that we wanted it to be fun and accessible and not just about the hardest climber winning. This unfortunately means that it is open to people not acting in the spirit of the comp and deliberately placing themselves in the easier category in order to win. The 1st place winner at Mile End did the easier problems and gained more points than anyone else, but swapped his prize with the person in second place who had done the harder problems. This was a good gesture of sportsmanship and we felt it was in keeping with the spirit of the competition.
Thanks for the positive comments on the routes and I'll make sure that the routesetter get this feedback too.
With regard to the cheating. It is always a problem with a self marking/judging. We have seen some very talented and less talented climbers cheat over the years, we always try to sort this out on the day but unless we see it as it happens it is difficult to address. Getting judges for comps is quite hard and in most cases uneccessary, but as usual there will always be those who spoil it for others by cheating.
The only thing I can't give you an answer to at the moment is why the rules were changed regarding the Team competition at the Westway but I will look into that and try to get an answer.
Finally we posted the results online within days of the Mile End round www.mileendwall.org.uk and will update them with the round 2 results asap.
Hope this goes some way to providing a few answers.
Dean
Hi Dean,
Thank you for your prompt response to my post.
I saw Jolyon swap prizes with Liam in round one and was very impressed. I'm afraid that my earlier post didn't highlight enough that most of my annoyance was as a result of this Saturdays Westway round. It was still frustrating in round 1 but I understand the intention of the handicap despite the frustration.
Several people had reported the young girl who allegedly cheated and I among others told the organisers of the shift in category of the winner. The woman in charge of the Westway side of the comp seemed to disregard this.
I didn't report the team issue as I was only told after the comp that the other two teams had only entered that round as a team. (by one of them).
I only wish to highlight these problems so that they can be prevented in future (because with such a good set of problems in both rounds and an otherwise great atmosphere, it's a shame to become annoyed at the end). We've seen in many comps that juniors cannot be trusted to mark their own cards, perhaps a new system is needed. (Link at bottom)
Finally, if for whatever reason prizes are not given to the winners of each category, fair enough. I would think it fairer on those of in the hard category if the winners of each category could be announced before the final aggregation of scores (and prize giving) between the two though.
Thanks again,
Richard
http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=38&sid=cc3d75038ccf393...
Thank you for your prompt response to my post.
I saw Jolyon swap prizes with Liam in round one and was very impressed. I'm afraid that my earlier post didn't highlight enough that most of my annoyance was as a result of this Saturdays Westway round. It was still frustrating in round 1 but I understand the intention of the handicap despite the frustration.
Several people had reported the young girl who allegedly cheated and I among others told the organisers of the shift in category of the winner. The woman in charge of the Westway side of the comp seemed to disregard this.
I didn't report the team issue as I was only told after the comp that the other two teams had only entered that round as a team. (by one of them).
I only wish to highlight these problems so that they can be prevented in future (because with such a good set of problems in both rounds and an otherwise great atmosphere, it's a shame to become annoyed at the end). We've seen in many comps that juniors cannot be trusted to mark their own cards, perhaps a new system is needed. (Link at bottom)
Finally, if for whatever reason prizes are not given to the winners of each category, fair enough. I would think it fairer on those of in the hard category if the winners of each category could be announced before the final aggregation of scores (and prize giving) between the two though.
Thanks again,
Richard
http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=38&sid=cc3d75038ccf393...
I have to agree with the comments made in this thread. I think the routes where excellent, and people seemed to be having a lot of fun, but cheating and the prize giving was not in the spirit of a competition.
I would like to point out that this was my first comp, and only attended because it was advertised as a FUN comp, and hoped people wouldn't be taking it too seriously, people always do... /me thinks about the screaming, stress hulk.
It is however unfair NOT to separate the prizes between the two different classes, much better to reward both groups individually, even if it is with split 'prize vouchers' than to show such disrespect to some really excellent climbers.
Additionally, I would like to seek some clarity on acceptable ethic displayed by some more... prominent climbers at the event. I have always been of the opinion that touching and fettling holds prior to sitting down at a problem is out of the question. As well as not starting with both hands on each of the stand hand holds (i.e. saw a lot of people matching) as well as bum shuffling and 'practise starts'.
While the younger members where praised for their effort (as maybe they should be, encouragement and all), it did feel there was a definite leaning towards the regulars and trusting there efforts.
<sarcasm>Nice to see people with sponsorship deal participating and taking the prize </sarcasm>(that they where blatantly going to win) at a fun comp too... I have nothing wrong with professional people competition, but should they really be able to get prizes at a fun comp? :-/ I think that lil lad that was 4ft nothing who was attempting to climb a ><V4 (and getting a decent way into the freaking problem)should have seen the funking prize!
I did have fun, really enjoyed myself, and felt I got a lot out of the day, but I will say this to those that where not behaving themselves... hollow victories are just that, if you cheat, are underhanded or are lax in your approach, PEOPLE WILL NOTICE and while we can't do much about it, word of mouth is part and parcel of climbing.
I will definitely come next year!
Anyone know about the photos too... would love to see them, I know a guy was taking some, so.... link?
I would like to point out that this was my first comp, and only attended because it was advertised as a FUN comp, and hoped people wouldn't be taking it too seriously, people always do... /me thinks about the screaming, stress hulk.
It is however unfair NOT to separate the prizes between the two different classes, much better to reward both groups individually, even if it is with split 'prize vouchers' than to show such disrespect to some really excellent climbers.
Additionally, I would like to seek some clarity on acceptable ethic displayed by some more... prominent climbers at the event. I have always been of the opinion that touching and fettling holds prior to sitting down at a problem is out of the question. As well as not starting with both hands on each of the stand hand holds (i.e. saw a lot of people matching) as well as bum shuffling and 'practise starts'.
While the younger members where praised for their effort (as maybe they should be, encouragement and all), it did feel there was a definite leaning towards the regulars and trusting there efforts.
<sarcasm>Nice to see people with sponsorship deal participating and taking the prize </sarcasm>(that they where blatantly going to win) at a fun comp too... I have nothing wrong with professional people competition, but should they really be able to get prizes at a fun comp? :-/ I think that lil lad that was 4ft nothing who was attempting to climb a ><V4 (and getting a decent way into the freaking problem)should have seen the funking prize!
I did have fun, really enjoyed myself, and felt I got a lot out of the day, but I will say this to those that where not behaving themselves... hollow victories are just that, if you cheat, are underhanded or are lax in your approach, PEOPLE WILL NOTICE and while we can't do much about it, word of mouth is part and parcel of climbing.
I will definitely come next year!
Anyone know about the photos too... would love to see them, I know a guy was taking some, so.... link?
In reply to Castleclimber:
Agreed, good problems but slightly ridiculous rules that were always going to be abused. I can see why the westway woman didn't do anything because there wasn't much she could do without completely changing the rules, but she must have seen that it was a farce! Next year there should certainly be some kind of distinction in prizes.
Re the last post, at mile end I think everyone was agreed that we shouldn't touch holds, etc. But for some reason, when I arrived at the westway, there seemed to already be a consensus that we could.
Agreed, good problems but slightly ridiculous rules that were always going to be abused. I can see why the westway woman didn't do anything because there wasn't much she could do without completely changing the rules, but she must have seen that it was a farce! Next year there should certainly be some kind of distinction in prizes.
Re the last post, at mile end I think everyone was agreed that we shouldn't touch holds, etc. But for some reason, when I arrived at the westway, there seemed to already be a consensus that we could.
In reply to EscapeArtist:
I didn't enter this comp, but I have done lots of comps over the years. It is fairly common for sponsored heroes to enter comps. Just because it's a competition for fun doesn't mean that it isn't a competition or that the standard has to be low. The point is that it is a relaxed atmosphere and anyone can enter. A lot of people relish the chance to compete against sponsored heroes.
I didn't enter this comp, but I have done lots of comps over the years. It is fairly common for sponsored heroes to enter comps. Just because it's a competition for fun doesn't mean that it isn't a competition or that the standard has to be low. The point is that it is a relaxed atmosphere and anyone can enter. A lot of people relish the chance to compete against sponsored heroes.
In reply to Castleclimber: My eight year old daughter and I took part at the Westway round, having missed the Mile End round due to other commitments (although we got to try out the Mile End problems the following day). It was my daughter's first competition and as she was able to flash six of the problems it gave her great encouragement. I have always thought twice about taking her to a SIBL round for fear of the problems being too hard and putting her off, but the FUN aspect of East Meets West was just what she needed. As a junior and a veteran we were not affected by the superheroes / mere mortals overlap, but as an impartial observer I would say that the organisers' motives were laudable but the system was always going to be open to abuse.
I should also like to endorse the comments made above regarding the excellent quality of the problems at both venues.
As to the question of "professionals" entering competitions, I guess that they are entitled to have fun too. Whether or not they claim a prize is a matter for their own conscience.
All in all, a most enjoyable day and we are looking forward to taking part in both rounds next year.
I should also like to endorse the comments made above regarding the excellent quality of the problems at both venues.
As to the question of "professionals" entering competitions, I guess that they are entitled to have fun too. Whether or not they claim a prize is a matter for their own conscience.
All in all, a most enjoyable day and we are looking forward to taking part in both rounds next year.
In reply to Jim Houghton:
In that case, perhaps I shouldn't be complaining. I myself was touching holds during this comp (though I checked that it was in the rules with those around me before I did which they confirmed, possibly incorrectly).
Ideally a blanket ban on touching holds in all comps would remove any confusion. The Southern Indoor Bouldering League recently began officially allowing it (provided both feet are touching floor) though now all of us seem to be assuming that it's allowed in other comps.
Without a clear cut line, just one person touching holds will cause others to follow, not wishing the first an unfair advantage over them. That was my reason anyway
In that case, perhaps I shouldn't be complaining. I myself was touching holds during this comp (though I checked that it was in the rules with those around me before I did which they confirmed, possibly incorrectly).
Ideally a blanket ban on touching holds in all comps would remove any confusion. The Southern Indoor Bouldering League recently began officially allowing it (provided both feet are touching floor) though now all of us seem to be assuming that it's allowed in other comps.
Without a clear cut line, just one person touching holds will cause others to follow, not wishing the first an unfair advantage over them. That was my reason anyway
In reply to Castleclimber:
I went to both rounds and enjoyed them - I thought that particularly at Mile End the route-setting was varied and excellent, but perhaps as a Westway regular I am a little jaded by the bouldering facilities there. Still some great problems put up and I look forward to working them some more until the next re-set.
While I think that the idea that 'mere mortals' should win prizes for their efforts is a nice one, a clearer delineation between 'mortals' and 'superheroes' is needed in order for this to work. I think some strong but modest climbers (eg. Jolyon) would be hesitant to describe themselves as a 'superhero' having not climbed in the 8s. However, in the context of the competition if you're consistently flashing V6s and V7s to get a score in the 200s then perhaps you should automatically be recognised for superhero powers and bumped up into the higher category.
And definitely prizes should have been awarded to the top 3 mortals and top 3 superheroes; if you want to recognise mortal efforts then this is the only fair way to do it. Otherwise it's like giving first prize to a runner who ran the fastest 100m then stopped, in a 200m race won by someone else. Or giving a prize for throwing a discus further than a shotput?!
6 small prizes per adult category might be better anyway given that there was definitely quite a bit of cheating going on. It seemed that some people weren't clear that if you'd tried a problem at a certain grade and failed on it, you couldn't simply substitute another one of the same grade that you tried later and flashed. And some attempts were certainly not being recorded.
In the end though in a 'fun' comp, if you cheat you're only really cheating yourself - losing the respect of your fellow climbers means a lot more than 'winning' a friendly bouldering comp.
I didn't come anywhere near winning but I 'won' some chalk and fingertape in spot prizes and flashed some harder problems than I normally would because of the comp atmosphere, so I've come away happy. However, I can see how Richard, who was the only person to climb brilliantly over both rounds in the harder category, might feel a bit short-changed.
I went to both rounds and enjoyed them - I thought that particularly at Mile End the route-setting was varied and excellent, but perhaps as a Westway regular I am a little jaded by the bouldering facilities there. Still some great problems put up and I look forward to working them some more until the next re-set.
While I think that the idea that 'mere mortals' should win prizes for their efforts is a nice one, a clearer delineation between 'mortals' and 'superheroes' is needed in order for this to work. I think some strong but modest climbers (eg. Jolyon) would be hesitant to describe themselves as a 'superhero' having not climbed in the 8s. However, in the context of the competition if you're consistently flashing V6s and V7s to get a score in the 200s then perhaps you should automatically be recognised for superhero powers and bumped up into the higher category.
And definitely prizes should have been awarded to the top 3 mortals and top 3 superheroes; if you want to recognise mortal efforts then this is the only fair way to do it. Otherwise it's like giving first prize to a runner who ran the fastest 100m then stopped, in a 200m race won by someone else. Or giving a prize for throwing a discus further than a shotput?!
6 small prizes per adult category might be better anyway given that there was definitely quite a bit of cheating going on. It seemed that some people weren't clear that if you'd tried a problem at a certain grade and failed on it, you couldn't simply substitute another one of the same grade that you tried later and flashed. And some attempts were certainly not being recorded.
In the end though in a 'fun' comp, if you cheat you're only really cheating yourself - losing the respect of your fellow climbers means a lot more than 'winning' a friendly bouldering comp.
I didn't come anywhere near winning but I 'won' some chalk and fingertape in spot prizes and flashed some harder problems than I normally would because of the comp atmosphere, so I've come away happy. However, I can see how Richard, who was the only person to climb brilliantly over both rounds in the harder category, might feel a bit short-changed.
In reply to Castleclimber:
I'd agree both comps this year were good - it's a shame the westway bouldering facilities are so limited but they made good use of what was available.
I feel that if its a fun comp then have fun! I.E. no prizes just celebrity for the winners and a slap in the face 'must pull harder' for the losers. However, if you're giving prizes, mixing catagories is nonsense. If you want the less able to win give the less able a catagory to themselves.
As a slight aside...with the emphasis on 'fun' comp I feel there was one or two people that didn't quite get this. There were comments from Westwayers to Mile Enders intended to annoy. Whether this was 'comp tactics' or just plain nasty, I don't know. This saddened me as I thought the majority of people got the idea of 'fun' just right.
Anyway - roll on the good weather so we can get out of the cabin fever of the plastic hell, onto the real stuff and be happy again.
D.C
I'd agree both comps this year were good - it's a shame the westway bouldering facilities are so limited but they made good use of what was available.
I feel that if its a fun comp then have fun! I.E. no prizes just celebrity for the winners and a slap in the face 'must pull harder' for the losers. However, if you're giving prizes, mixing catagories is nonsense. If you want the less able to win give the less able a catagory to themselves.
As a slight aside...with the emphasis on 'fun' comp I feel there was one or two people that didn't quite get this. There were comments from Westwayers to Mile Enders intended to annoy. Whether this was 'comp tactics' or just plain nasty, I don't know. This saddened me as I thought the majority of people got the idea of 'fun' just right.
Anyway - roll on the good weather so we can get out of the cabin fever of the plastic hell, onto the real stuff and be happy again.
D.C
In reply to Castleclimber:
Lol, Londerners eh?
I guess this is what a lack of real rock does to you.
Lol, Londerners eh?
I guess this is what a lack of real rock does to you.
In reply to Castleclimber: I see the award winners from the second round are now listed on the Westway website with a handful of pictures. Would it be possible to get all of the results listed, in the same way as the first round on the Mile End website? Also it would be great to see the rest of the pictures.
In reply to Castleclimber: Ha! Can't believe that - the results are listed as open men!!!!
In reply to Jim Houghton:
Yes Jim, this is what I mean. No detail whatsoever. Also, putting the category mess aside, what about those who didn't place in the top three? They've all been waiting for their actual place close to a week now.
Yes Jim, this is what I mean. No detail whatsoever. Also, putting the category mess aside, what about those who didn't place in the top three? They've all been waiting for their actual place close to a week now.
In reply to toaster:
Have the Westway got back to you with the full results list yet Dean? I suspect that's why it's not on the Mile End website yet
Also, do we have any clarification on the team issue?
Have the Westway got back to you with the full results list yet Dean? I suspect that's why it's not on the Mile End website yet
Also, do we have any clarification on the team issue?
In reply to Castleclimber:
Bump
> (In reply to toaster)
>
> Have the Westway got back to you with the full results list yet Dean? I suspect that's why it's not on the Mile End website yet
>
> Also, do we have any clarification on the team issue?
>
> Have the Westway got back to you with the full results list yet Dean? I suspect that's why it's not on the Mile End website yet
>
> Also, do we have any clarification on the team issue?
Bump
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