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Just to let everyone know about some evil goings on at Ramshaw and Newstones. BMC local access volunteer Dave Bishop has found extensive chipping at Newstones and improved runner placements and chipped holds at Ramshaw. There are rumours locally about who the perpetrator is and suffice to say he will be strung up if caught. So if everyone can keep there eyes peeled perhaps we can catch the swine.
In reply to John Horscroft:
That is not cool! Same question as Mark, what damage has been done to which routes/problems?
That is not cool! Same question as Mark, what damage has been done to which routes/problems?
In reply to John Horscroft:
How can anyone chip the Newstones. That is so sad, it's such a beautiful place.
Time to wait in a car with some binoculars and baseball bats....that'd put a stop to it.
How can anyone chip the Newstones. That is so sad, it's such a beautiful place.
Time to wait in a car with some binoculars and baseball bats....that'd put a stop to it.
In reply to brendonTendon:
Come on John, you can't post a message like this and leave it hanging in the air.
Who? What? Where? When? and just how badly?, all of which will factor just how big a kicking the bloke/bird (for crimes like this i'd hit a woman!) gets
Come on John, you can't post a message like this and leave it hanging in the air.
Who? What? Where? When? and just how badly?, all of which will factor just how big a kicking the bloke/bird (for crimes like this i'd hit a woman!) gets
In reply to mark:
I'll get chapter and verse from Dave Bishop and let you know. I hadn't noticed chipping so much as the ridiculous amount of brushing. A lot of even the large holds seem to have been brushed into really obvious orange scars (for instance the sit-down problems on the buttress above the Crease). It's absolutely not necessary. Yes, certain faces do get green quickly, but a tiny rub with a soft brush (or even a towel) is all that's necessary.
I'll get chapter and verse from Dave Bishop and let you know. I hadn't noticed chipping so much as the ridiculous amount of brushing. A lot of even the large holds seem to have been brushed into really obvious orange scars (for instance the sit-down problems on the buttress above the Crease). It's absolutely not necessary. Yes, certain faces do get green quickly, but a tiny rub with a soft brush (or even a towel) is all that's necessary.
In reply to John Horscroft: I think we should have a whip round and get Frank the decorator (Who lives at the cottage, you pass to get to Baldstones and Newstones), a shoot gun and some binoculars. That will sort the bugger out!
In reply to John Horscroft:
Yes, noticed on Sunday afternoon what appeared to be rather aggressive brushing, leading to much improved crimps - tossers.
Yes, noticed on Sunday afternoon what appeared to be rather aggressive brushing, leading to much improved crimps - tossers.
In reply to Mick Dewsbury:
It's amazing how ignorant people are. I saw one of Britain's most famous 60's climbers using a f*ck-off great wire brush at Ramshaw recently (and taking a shit on the path, incidentally). Wish I'd had the nerve to say something.
It's amazing how ignorant people are. I saw one of Britain's most famous 60's climbers using a f*ck-off great wire brush at Ramshaw recently (and taking a shit on the path, incidentally). Wish I'd had the nerve to say something.
In reply to john cox:
I guess there's nothing wrong with a wire brush per se, but people need to realise that they must be used with great care on grit. I carry one about but only use it rarely.
no excuse for having a shit on the path though. Nice.
I guess there's nothing wrong with a wire brush per se, but people need to realise that they must be used with great care on grit. I carry one about but only use it rarely.
no excuse for having a shit on the path though. Nice.
In reply to John Horscroft:
Sorry chaps! Didin't mean to leave you in the dark, but I'd only just had the call from Dave Bishop, the vigilant one. As far as I know, there's a chipped runner placement on Louie Grove (?)at Ramshaw and lots of sit-down-starts have had holds improved. Whether it's by wire brush or not I don't know. Doesn't matter really, the whole thing stinks. Dave's bringing some slides of the damage along to the Peak Area BMC Meeting on 27th Sept at the Anchor Inn Tideswell. If you fancy a look and a council of war, come along. Andy Kirkpatrick's doing a slide show too.
Sorry chaps! Didin't mean to leave you in the dark, but I'd only just had the call from Dave Bishop, the vigilant one. As far as I know, there's a chipped runner placement on Louie Grove (?)at Ramshaw and lots of sit-down-starts have had holds improved. Whether it's by wire brush or not I don't know. Doesn't matter really, the whole thing stinks. Dave's bringing some slides of the damage along to the Peak Area BMC Meeting on 27th Sept at the Anchor Inn Tideswell. If you fancy a look and a council of war, come along. Andy Kirkpatrick's doing a slide show too.
In reply to John Horscroft:
>lots of sit-down-starts have had holds improved.
Just at Ramshaw or @ Newstones/Baldstones as well ?
Very disapointed whatever, it's my favourite local crag.
B
>lots of sit-down-starts have had holds improved.
Just at Ramshaw or @ Newstones/Baldstones as well ?
Very disapointed whatever, it's my favourite local crag.
B
In reply to Ben Tye:
Ben, was that you i met at Trackside, Curbar on Saturday?
Ben, was that you i met at Trackside, Curbar on Saturday?
In reply to Mick Dewsbury:
I guess so, thought you looked familiar - I've sent you a mail to keep this thread on-topic.
Ben
I guess so, thought you looked familiar - I've sent you a mail to keep this thread on-topic.
Ben
Just to let you know, Dave's written an article for Summit 24, due out November, full details of this chipping & pics.
In reply to alex:
Was it Bin Laden? He has the cash, he has the resources, and he has the sort of blind ruthlessness and self-righteousness that is required for such inhumanity.
Was it Bin Laden? He has the cash, he has the resources, and he has the sort of blind ruthlessness and self-righteousness that is required for such inhumanity.
In reply to David:
Sorry. Chipping at Newstones is something I care deeply about, but it suddenly seems totally peripheral. The phrase above was taken directly from the Guardian editorial this morning. I should have taken Charles Arthur's advice and counted to 10 before posting.
Sorry. Chipping at Newstones is something I care deeply about, but it suddenly seems totally peripheral. The phrase above was taken directly from the Guardian editorial this morning. I should have taken Charles Arthur's advice and counted to 10 before posting.
In reply to John Horscroft:
Dave and I found that quite a lot of the climbs at Ramshaw had been extensively brushed last year as well as this year, which I think has spoilt the friction, and this year what used to be a bit of a vertical hold in the corner of Louie Groove is now a runner placement. The rock can be sandy if it's not been climbed much but that's no excuse for OTT wire brushing (and there's never any excuse for chipping!).
Whoever's doing this is spoiling it for everyone else and I'm wholeheartedly with Dave on this one.
Liz :|
> As far as I know, there's a chipped runner placement on Louie Grove (?)at Ramshaw
Dave and I found that quite a lot of the climbs at Ramshaw had been extensively brushed last year as well as this year, which I think has spoilt the friction, and this year what used to be a bit of a vertical hold in the corner of Louie Groove is now a runner placement. The rock can be sandy if it's not been climbed much but that's no excuse for OTT wire brushing (and there's never any excuse for chipping!).
Whoever's doing this is spoiling it for everyone else and I'm wholeheartedly with Dave on this one.
Liz :|
In reply to john cox:
This high profile 1960s climber. Name him and shame him.
French climbing has been polluted by the refusal to criticise people (a misguided notion of "respect") but we don't have to make their mistake.
This high profile 1960s climber. Name him and shame him.
French climbing has been polluted by the refusal to criticise people (a misguided notion of "respect") but we don't have to make their mistake.
In reply to john cox:
This high profile 1960s climber overbrushing and crapping on the path: name him and shame him.
French climbing has been polluted by the refusal to criticise people (a misguided notion of "respect") but we don't have to make their mistake.
This high profile 1960s climber overbrushing and crapping on the path: name him and shame him.
French climbing has been polluted by the refusal to criticise people (a misguided notion of "respect") but we don't have to make their mistake.
In reply to Steve Gough:
Oops.
And it's a bit strange that on another thread a poster talks about a French crag that is "good" although everything is chipped ("but not as bad as it sounds because it would be unclimbable otherwise!!!???"). Sometimes get the impression that there's one rule for the UK and another for the continental hols ...
How many of you happily crank away on chipped holds on the continent?
Oops.
And it's a bit strange that on another thread a poster talks about a French crag that is "good" although everything is chipped ("but not as bad as it sounds because it would be unclimbable otherwise!!!???"). Sometimes get the impression that there's one rule for the UK and another for the continental hols ...
How many of you happily crank away on chipped holds on the continent?
In reply to Steve Gough:
The Annot thread if that seems like complete gibberish. Sorry. Too much wine at lunch.
The Annot thread if that seems like complete gibberish. Sorry. Too much wine at lunch.
In reply to John Horscroft: While saddened by the brushing on Ramshaw and Newstones, the chipped runner placement on Louie Grove was there when I did it circa 1992.
Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
In reply to Steve Gough:
It's up to the French to set the ethics for their crags.
Chipping certainly isn't ok at places like Bleau, but I think they don't see chipped limestone as so much as a problem because they've got endless amounts of it available.
Not sure about this, but that's the way I see it.
It's up to the French to set the ethics for their crags.
Chipping certainly isn't ok at places like Bleau, but I think they don't see chipped limestone as so much as a problem because they've got endless amounts of it available.
Not sure about this, but that's the way I see it.
In reply to brendonTendon:
I'm sure that is the way they see it although there are signs that the French chippers are slowly coming to their senses.
What I'm curious to know is how many of those outraged by chipping on UK rock are happy to pull on chipped holds when they go to France, Spain, Italy.....
It seems to be to do with rock types. If that is so why is a chipped imestone route OK but a chipped grit or volcanic rock route arouses fury?
I'm sure that is the way they see it although there are signs that the French chippers are slowly coming to their senses.
What I'm curious to know is how many of those outraged by chipping on UK rock are happy to pull on chipped holds when they go to France, Spain, Italy.....
It seems to be to do with rock types. If that is so why is a chipped imestone route OK but a chipped grit or volcanic rock route arouses fury?
In reply to Steve Gough:
I'm fully against chipping but am not so ethically pure as to not pull on existing chipped holds in the uk.
I've done lots of routes/problems in this country that contain chipped holds - you can't undo what's happened in the distant past. So, although I've never come across any, I'm sure that I would pull on chipped holds abroad.
However, anyone caught chipping new holds should be dealt with, shall we say, rather firmly.
There is the other issue of filling in chipped holds, and I know that this has happened a lot when recent chips are discovered. I agree with this, although sometimes the resulting fill is uglier than the chips. Can't see somebody going round repairing all that ancient graffiti, etc though....
I'm fully against chipping but am not so ethically pure as to not pull on existing chipped holds in the uk.
I've done lots of routes/problems in this country that contain chipped holds - you can't undo what's happened in the distant past. So, although I've never come across any, I'm sure that I would pull on chipped holds abroad.
However, anyone caught chipping new holds should be dealt with, shall we say, rather firmly.
There is the other issue of filling in chipped holds, and I know that this has happened a lot when recent chips are discovered. I agree with this, although sometimes the resulting fill is uglier than the chips. Can't see somebody going round repairing all that ancient graffiti, etc though....
In reply to Steve Gough:
It's always depressing to see chipped holds on continental crags. Whether we are happy to pull on them, or outraged, it isn't going to have much impact. Hammering painful edges off solution pockets seems to be almost universal, and it's a reflection of the attitude that says get it bolted up and make some decent routes that are pleasant to climb. Since this is almost universal in Europe, there's not much we can do is there?
It's always depressing to see chipped holds on continental crags. Whether we are happy to pull on them, or outraged, it isn't going to have much impact. Hammering painful edges off solution pockets seems to be almost universal, and it's a reflection of the attitude that says get it bolted up and make some decent routes that are pleasant to climb. Since this is almost universal in Europe, there's not much we can do is there?
In reply to brendonTendon:
Broadly agree with you. However alot of the holds on French limestone were created in the very recent past - to enhance your holiday enjoyment, and perhaps boost the local economy.
French mags include zero info on the extent of chipping at the incredibly sexy crags (yawn) they cover. I get the impression they don't like the idea. It goes back to this idea they have of it somehow showing a lack of "respect" for the chippers....
Broadly agree with you. However alot of the holds on French limestone were created in the very recent past - to enhance your holiday enjoyment, and perhaps boost the local economy.
French mags include zero info on the extent of chipping at the incredibly sexy crags (yawn) they cover. I get the impression they don't like the idea. It goes back to this idea they have of it somehow showing a lack of "respect" for the chippers....
In reply to bullybones:
But you said it yourself: "...decent routes ...that are pleasant to climb....there's not much we can do is there"
Well if you don't like chipping you can not climb the routes!
Are you for or against chipped holds?
But you said it yourself: "...decent routes ...that are pleasant to climb....there's not much we can do is there"
Well if you don't like chipping you can not climb the routes!
Are you for or against chipped holds?
In reply to Steve Gough: Climbing chipped & bolted routes is something I and probably many other brits see as something that is fine on holiday but we wouldn't dream of doing it back home. A bit like going for the weekend to Amsterdam to ingest industrial quantities of cocaine & hiring a squad of ladyboys to dress up as SS officers and polish your toenails etc.
I hasten to add that I haven't actually done this.
Seriously, as visitors it is hard to criticise the way that local climbers treat their crags in France / Spain or wherever. Objectively chipping is a fairly fundamental form of cheating but when I am at sport crags on the continent I prefer just to enjoy the novelty & the diversity of climbing but feel grateful for what we have maintained here.
I hasten to add that I haven't actually done this.
Seriously, as visitors it is hard to criticise the way that local climbers treat their crags in France / Spain or wherever. Objectively chipping is a fairly fundamental form of cheating but when I am at sport crags on the continent I prefer just to enjoy the novelty & the diversity of climbing but feel grateful for what we have maintained here.
In reply to Steve Gough:
I'm against chipping at Newstones, and I'm for bolting at Bouox. But with bolting comes chipping, which I'm against. I'm sorry if this is too complicated for you.
I'm against chipping at Newstones, and I'm for bolting at Bouox. But with bolting comes chipping, which I'm against. I'm sorry if this is too complicated for you.
In reply to bullybones:
No I can wrap my head around that concept. Emminently sensible response Mr Bones by the way. But try telling the French that bolts is more or less synonymous with chipping. They'll think you're out of your tiny. Vive la difference.
I live in France but hardly ever climb here (apart from Bleau). More inspired by going back to old haunts - Peak, Wales, etc. French limestone is a pure bagof by comparison.
No I can wrap my head around that concept. Emminently sensible response Mr Bones by the way. But try telling the French that bolts is more or less synonymous with chipping. They'll think you're out of your tiny. Vive la difference.
I live in France but hardly ever climb here (apart from Bleau). More inspired by going back to old haunts - Peak, Wales, etc. French limestone is a pure bagof by comparison.
In reply to Steve Gough:
You must be the ultimate purist! I lived in Switzerland and France for a few years, and had to give up my feelings of disgust at chipped rock so I could get out and enjoy my climbing! There are still places like Mello with a really high ethical standard, but Switzerland is losing it rapidly, and France, well, just never had any standards to lose.
I still get narked when I see some local 'guide' sponsored by the tourist office 'creating' new sports crags in France. This is a horrible symbiosis, where the guide gets dosh + expenses (bolts, chains) and writes the guidebook, which the tourist office then sells to promote leisure activity in its area. When this done to limestone it's bad eough, but when granite gets the treatment it's really sad. Having said that I don't recall seeing any chipping on a granite crag - maybe you have?
You must be the ultimate purist! I lived in Switzerland and France for a few years, and had to give up my feelings of disgust at chipped rock so I could get out and enjoy my climbing! There are still places like Mello with a really high ethical standard, but Switzerland is losing it rapidly, and France, well, just never had any standards to lose.
I still get narked when I see some local 'guide' sponsored by the tourist office 'creating' new sports crags in France. This is a horrible symbiosis, where the guide gets dosh + expenses (bolts, chains) and writes the guidebook, which the tourist office then sells to promote leisure activity in its area. When this done to limestone it's bad eough, but when granite gets the treatment it's really sad. Having said that I don't recall seeing any chipping on a granite crag - maybe you have?
In reply to bullybones:
It's easy to be an ethical Ayatollah when you hardly ever climb anywhere but your local patch (but not that easy cos there are tons of chipped holds, some recent, in Font - the ground I stamp on).
Like I said I don't get to French crags much but I'm sure I've seen articles on French granite crags that've been chipped to oblivion. And if you criticise you're elitist, arrogant, disrespectful etc...
The French mags are laregely responsible for this - particularly Vertical (now Vertical Roc) and Grimper - although they refute this. "Just reflecting the current scene, etc, etc..."
I'm getting to the point where I couldn't care less about chipping on limestone - but chipping on granite (or grit) is cause for righteous anger.
It's easy to be an ethical Ayatollah when you hardly ever climb anywhere but your local patch (but not that easy cos there are tons of chipped holds, some recent, in Font - the ground I stamp on).
Like I said I don't get to French crags much but I'm sure I've seen articles on French granite crags that've been chipped to oblivion. And if you criticise you're elitist, arrogant, disrespectful etc...
The French mags are laregely responsible for this - particularly Vertical (now Vertical Roc) and Grimper - although they refute this. "Just reflecting the current scene, etc, etc..."
I'm getting to the point where I couldn't care less about chipping on limestone - but chipping on granite (or grit) is cause for righteous anger.
In reply to Ninian:
"as visitors it is hard to criticise the way that local climbers treat their crags in France / Spain"
It is if you climb on them yes.
That's why Ben Moon's stance wasn't very convincing when he went to repeat those manufactured French testpieces at Orgon a few years ago. He said he was against chipping (and I'm sure he was/is) but felt he had to show them he could do the routes. It's a strange thing a rock star who thinks he has a reputation to defend...
"as visitors it is hard to criticise the way that local climbers treat their crags in France / Spain"
It is if you climb on them yes.
That's why Ben Moon's stance wasn't very convincing when he went to repeat those manufactured French testpieces at Orgon a few years ago. He said he was against chipping (and I'm sure he was/is) but felt he had to show them he could do the routes. It's a strange thing a rock star who thinks he has a reputation to defend...
In reply to Steve Gough:
Is that right? I'd have thought the only chance one had of stopping this was publicity, and I'd have thought BM was more likely to get publicity in Grimper by saying 'yeah, I did it, it's a real pity it's chipped', than, 'I'm not going to do it because it's chipped', which I doubt they would report and anyway would look like he'd secretly tried and failed.
Oh, and Martin Boysen.
Is that right? I'd have thought the only chance one had of stopping this was publicity, and I'd have thought BM was more likely to get publicity in Grimper by saying 'yeah, I did it, it's a real pity it's chipped', than, 'I'm not going to do it because it's chipped', which I doubt they would report and anyway would look like he'd secretly tried and failed.
Oh, and Martin Boysen.
In reply to john cox:
Martin Boysen secretly tried and failed? Come on, did he poo on the path or was he thwarted?
Martin Boysen secretly tried and failed? Come on, did he poo on the path or was he thwarted?
In reply to john cox:
So we've got a name - Martin Boysen, a famous 60's climber, someone taking a dump on a footpath and someone heavily wirebrushing a soft gritstone crag. I pressume were meant to associate these all together.
If people are seen acting anti-socially at crags in a way which can genuinely threaten access to these venues then the person who saw it should come out and say "I saw X do this at Ramshaw."
Wire brushing on gritstone improves the holds,(thats why people do it) and is therefore no different to chipping.
This is a lot more important (or merely as important as) than whether Ben and Jerry use the tails of a poff rag to clean holds on grit.
Next time I'm at the plantation and can't do Deliverance I'll clean the footholds with my sparkplug brush and after a few good cleans I'll be able to do it in my mates dads hanwags with the ripple sole and stacked heel.
If the holds just dirty a nylon or bristle brush will clean it up.
After foot and mouth we don't need to antagonise landowners too much for them to start refusing access.
So we've got a name - Martin Boysen, a famous 60's climber, someone taking a dump on a footpath and someone heavily wirebrushing a soft gritstone crag. I pressume were meant to associate these all together.
If people are seen acting anti-socially at crags in a way which can genuinely threaten access to these venues then the person who saw it should come out and say "I saw X do this at Ramshaw."
Wire brushing on gritstone improves the holds,(thats why people do it) and is therefore no different to chipping.
This is a lot more important (or merely as important as) than whether Ben and Jerry use the tails of a poff rag to clean holds on grit.
Next time I'm at the plantation and can't do Deliverance I'll clean the footholds with my sparkplug brush and after a few good cleans I'll be able to do it in my mates dads hanwags with the ripple sole and stacked heel.
If the holds just dirty a nylon or bristle brush will clean it up.
After foot and mouth we don't need to antagonise landowners too much for them to start refusing access.
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