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What are the best smaller cams, I've replaced some of my larger friends with Dragon Cams whihc I like but the smallest size is still pretty large. For sizes equivalent to WC Friends half to one and a half what are the best cams available. I wonder whether the Black Diamond cams are a bit to stiff for shallow horizontal placements.
In reply to Tyler:
From Friend 0.5-1 I'd probably go for WC Zeros although I do quite like DMM 3CUs. I wasn't hugely impressed with aliens (not that you'd find any). Mastercams seem pretty good by all accounts.
From Friend 0.5-1 I'd probably go for WC Zeros although I do quite like DMM 3CUs. I wasn't hugely impressed with aliens (not that you'd find any). Mastercams seem pretty good by all accounts.
In reply to Tyler:
aliens are v.good in the small sizes. Not sure if you can get them anywhere in UK, prob have to get them from states. very flexible and small heads. often see them 2nd hand on ebay.
aliens are v.good in the small sizes. Not sure if you can get them anywhere in UK, prob have to get them from states. very flexible and small heads. often see them 2nd hand on ebay.
In reply to Tyler: My very cool mates just gave me a BD C3 as a graduation present but I haven't had chance to use it yet - the size 1 I have is about 2 mms smaller than friend O size. It is stiff, but all the Americans seem to love them. I'll report back once I've used it some. My friend has some WC Zeros and they are beautifully made but he says they are so flexi they often bend when you are trying to pull the trigger. Nevertheless he's done routes where nothing else fits.
For the last few years I've been using DMM 3CUs in size 0 and 0.5, then a 4CU in 1 and above. I think the 3CU are great - very light, compact heads and I have fallen onto them and never had them fail. They are harder to find than the 4CUs, but well worth it and often on sale when you do find them.
For the last few years I've been using DMM 3CUs in size 0 and 0.5, then a 4CU in 1 and above. I think the 3CU are great - very light, compact heads and I have fallen onto them and never had them fail. They are harder to find than the 4CUs, but well worth it and often on sale when you do find them.
In reply to TobyA:
DMM 3CUs are usually on cheap offer (£30) on the N Wales shop websites which is a pretty good deal.
I've a 3CU and a zero in the same size and they're very different but if I had to have one of the 2 it's definately be the zero, its much more versatile. I'm not finding the zeros fragile especially since th triggers are well protected by the guides.
DMM 3CUs are usually on cheap offer (£30) on the N Wales shop websites which is a pretty good deal.
I've a 3CU and a zero in the same size and they're very different but if I had to have one of the 2 it's definately be the zero, its much more versatile. I'm not finding the zeros fragile especially since th triggers are well protected by the guides.
In reply to Tyler: I have 2 sets of small cams. C3s and Aliens. I go for C3s for narrow head and Aliens for everything else. Very difficult to get Aliens so I would go with either Mastercams or Zeros. Check out supertopo for a review of all the above.
In reply to Aigen:
Good point Tyler. Supertopo have lengthy reviews on wee cams.
> Check out supertopo for a review of all the above.
Good point Tyler. Supertopo have lengthy reviews on wee cams.
In reply to Tyler: Aliens every Time. They simply go in a lot of placements that other cams won't.
In reply to Tyler:
Zeroes all the way for me. Since they increased the length of the shaft they are pretty much flawless as far as I'm concerned. They're super-flexible so they rarely walk, and very confidence inspiring. I don't much like double stemmed cams, but especially in the smaller sizes they seem far more likely to walk than flexible single stemmed units.
I've never used any Aliens, but I understand they are very difficult to get hold of these days. Metolius do a near equivalent though, the Master Cam, which sacrifice a bit of range for more holding power. I only have a couple of the larger ones, but they're brilliant too.
Zeroes all the way for me. Since they increased the length of the shaft they are pretty much flawless as far as I'm concerned. They're super-flexible so they rarely walk, and very confidence inspiring. I don't much like double stemmed cams, but especially in the smaller sizes they seem far more likely to walk than flexible single stemmed units.
I've never used any Aliens, but I understand they are very difficult to get hold of these days. Metolius do a near equivalent though, the Master Cam, which sacrifice a bit of range for more holding power. I only have a couple of the larger ones, but they're brilliant too.
In reply to Tyler:
another vote for alians. But finding them is very hard as production has stopped and the company is up for sale.
Matercams are the next best thing. Small heads and good holding power caming angle.
another vote for alians. But finding them is very hard as production has stopped and the company is up for sale.
Matercams are the next best thing. Small heads and good holding power caming angle.
In reply to victim of mathematics:
'Seem' far more likely? Do you have some and found this? Only, my 3CUs have never walked. In fact aren't 3CUs meant to be mechanically impossible to walk. I've don't remember any of my small to mid-size 4CUs walking either.
I've never got what people manage to do to make their cams walk, it happens to rarely in my experience. But it never happens with wee cams because they are always squashed into such snug placements.
> but especially in the smaller sizes they seem far more likely to walk than flexible single stemmed units.
'Seem' far more likely? Do you have some and found this? Only, my 3CUs have never walked. In fact aren't 3CUs meant to be mechanically impossible to walk. I've don't remember any of my small to mid-size 4CUs walking either.
I've never got what people manage to do to make their cams walk, it happens to rarely in my experience. But it never happens with wee cams because they are always squashed into such snug placements.
In reply to TobyA:
I've managed to make a 3CU walk but I was trying to see if it was possible so it was a deliberately shoddy placement, you'd need to make a really poor job of placing it, be quite unlucky and totally fail to extend it before I'd be even slightly worried.
I've managed to make a 3CU walk but I was trying to see if it was possible so it was a deliberately shoddy placement, you'd need to make a really poor job of placing it, be quite unlucky and totally fail to extend it before I'd be even slightly worried.
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
Damn that was pointless. They don't make aliens any more plus there was issues with the quality control so you may be climbing with a piece of gear that should of never left the manufacturer. So now you have to pay over the odds on ebay for a used/possibly defective product.
> (In reply to Tyler) Aliens every Time. They simply go in a lot of placements that other cams won't.
Damn that was pointless. They don't make aliens any more plus there was issues with the quality control so you may be climbing with a piece of gear that should of never left the manufacturer. So now you have to pay over the odds on ebay for a used/possibly defective product.
In reply to Tyler: Hi Tyler. I've got a full set of WC Zeros and, although some say that small Aliens are better in certain situations, I would rate the Zeros. The 5 and 6 are equivalent to Friend 0 and 0.5, respectively but have a narrower head and are more flexible. The 3 and 4 fit in all sorts of unexpected places (especially worn wire slots) and I've successfully "tested" them in action. The 1 and 2 are rated for aid but I place the 2 quite a bit and trust it. The 1 is for novelty value! My only concern is that the trigger wires are quite delicate so they need to be placed and removed with a bit of care. You can have a play with them next time I see you.
In reply to Swig:
Yeah lets all recommend Aliens. Nice one, good luck with finding some used/overpriced/possibly defective on ebay from america and getting them shipped here. Stupid suggestion. You're free to tell me I'm wrong, or just generally sod off.
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
>
> FFS stop whinging.
>
> FFS stop whinging.
Yeah lets all recommend Aliens. Nice one, good luck with finding some used/overpriced/possibly defective on ebay from america and getting them shipped here. Stupid suggestion. You're free to tell me I'm wrong, or just generally sod off.
In reply to FreshSlate:
Yeah, you make some fair points about aliens but in an unnecessary manner!
Even when they were in production they were patchy to get hold of, even in the USA. But people did because they rated them so highly.
Yeah, you make some fair points about aliens but in an unnecessary manner!
Even when they were in production they were patchy to get hold of, even in the USA. But people did because they rated them so highly.
In reply to Swig: The manner you posted was more than unneccessary. If you're going to have a pop at something I've said at least give the O.P something worthwhile reading. I.E a counter point. I'm happy to disagree with you but saying 'FFS stop whinging' is not helpful to anyone.
I don't think they can be 3 times as good as every other cam. I don't think it's worth the hassle and 3x cost to find out. Just my opinion, won't affect me in the slightest what he buys. Noone had mentioned q/c issues of the aliens and I thought I would give him all the information (maybe that was unnecessary, I don't know)
I don't think they can be 3 times as good as every other cam. I don't think it's worth the hassle and 3x cost to find out. Just my opinion, won't affect me in the slightest what he buys. Noone had mentioned q/c issues of the aliens and I thought I would give him all the information (maybe that was unnecessary, I don't know)
In reply to Tyler:
Tediously predictable answer:
Aliens*>Zeros>>C3s. Zeros are pretty good. I've not used the Metolius items.
*with the caveat that mine were bought well before the quality-control issues and have been fall-tested a number of times.
Tediously predictable answer:
Aliens*>Zeros>>C3s. Zeros are pretty good. I've not used the Metolius items.
*with the caveat that mine were bought well before the quality-control issues and have been fall-tested a number of times.
In reply to Swig:
Having used aliens a couple of times I can see why people really rate them as they are easy to place well, the soft alloy and the spring tension give really reassuring placements. That said I wouldn't hand over cash for them, the whole operation strikes me as being excellent material for a case study on how not to do QC.
In situations where I was less bothered about massive mechanical failure and wanted something that would go in anywhere (aiding for example) or climbing on utterly rotten rock (not that I'd want to place cams in it), then I'd love to borrow a set of aliens
Having used aliens a couple of times I can see why people really rate them as they are easy to place well, the soft alloy and the spring tension give really reassuring placements. That said I wouldn't hand over cash for them, the whole operation strikes me as being excellent material for a case study on how not to do QC.
In situations where I was less bothered about massive mechanical failure and wanted something that would go in anywhere (aiding for example) or climbing on utterly rotten rock (not that I'd want to place cams in it), then I'd love to borrow a set of aliens
In reply to Swig:
No I haven't. I didn't slate the guy, I slated the recommendation. The conditions in which he bought his (assuming he has a set) and the conditions our O.P would buy them are completely different. Buying used micro gear (especially cams) for a lot of people is a huge no-no but aliens seem to get a let off here because they're not making them anymore.
I believe to recommend a product, that 1) You'd have to buy used. 2) A company that's had it's Q/C issues and is being sol 3) Are really hard to get over here/most likely shipped in from America via personal shipping to someone unaware of all these issues is on the wrong side of irresponsible. I was harsh but not unduly so. I believe if you really think that the O.P should buy these then you wouldn't neglect mentioning these points (if the positives truly outweigh the negatives).
In your view Swig is it worth it? If so just say so.
"*with the caveat that mine were bought well before the quality-control issues and have been fall-tested a number of times."
"aliens are v.good in the small sizes. Not sure if you can get them anywhere in UK, prob have to get them from states. very flexible and small heads. often see them 2nd hand on ebay."
The people who've said they're good but mentioned that they have real issues unique to these specific cams (as above) are being honest and giving a fair (not obscure) picture.
No I haven't. I didn't slate the guy, I slated the recommendation. The conditions in which he bought his (assuming he has a set) and the conditions our O.P would buy them are completely different. Buying used micro gear (especially cams) for a lot of people is a huge no-no but aliens seem to get a let off here because they're not making them anymore.
I believe to recommend a product, that 1) You'd have to buy used. 2) A company that's had it's Q/C issues and is being sol 3) Are really hard to get over here/most likely shipped in from America via personal shipping to someone unaware of all these issues is on the wrong side of irresponsible. I was harsh but not unduly so. I believe if you really think that the O.P should buy these then you wouldn't neglect mentioning these points (if the positives truly outweigh the negatives).
In your view Swig is it worth it? If so just say so.
"*with the caveat that mine were bought well before the quality-control issues and have been fall-tested a number of times."
"aliens are v.good in the small sizes. Not sure if you can get them anywhere in UK, prob have to get them from states. very flexible and small heads. often see them 2nd hand on ebay."
The people who've said they're good but mentioned that they have real issues unique to these specific cams (as above) are being honest and giving a fair (not obscure) picture.
In reply to Tyler: At the moment aliens are nigh on impossible, or at least very expensive, to get hold of. Good second hand aliens are sold at extortionate prices on e-bay.
I have experience of aliens, master cams, and black diamond c3. They all have strong points and weak points. As you suspect c3s are not very good in shallow horizontals, but on the other hand, those placements are always marginal.
For the kind of rock I mostly climb c3 is the most versatile kind of small cam I know of, and I have stopped bring my small aliens (I still often bring the red alien though) and rely only on my c3s. The main drawback with the c3 is that I sometimes need to extend it with a quick-draw in places where I don't need to extend an alien.
I have experience of aliens, master cams, and black diamond c3. They all have strong points and weak points. As you suspect c3s are not very good in shallow horizontals, but on the other hand, those placements are always marginal.
For the kind of rock I mostly climb c3 is the most versatile kind of small cam I know of, and I have stopped bring my small aliens (I still often bring the red alien though) and rely only on my c3s. The main drawback with the c3 is that I sometimes need to extend it with a quick-draw in places where I don't need to extend an alien.
In reply to Tyler:
Tyler I have a set of the 5 smallest Aliens and also a set of WC zeros.
The aliens are niceer to use and are a bit narrower than the WC zeros, however concerns about the build quality have made me nervous about using them, so I rarely take them out.
In fact if you want a set then I'd probably be happy to sell mine which are are in good condition and are not from any of the recalled batches.
Ben
Tyler I have a set of the 5 smallest Aliens and also a set of WC zeros.
The aliens are niceer to use and are a bit narrower than the WC zeros, however concerns about the build quality have made me nervous about using them, so I rarely take them out.
In fact if you want a set then I'd probably be happy to sell mine which are are in good condition and are not from any of the recalled batches.
Ben
In reply to Tyler:
I have the metolius cams. I love the strong springs, the narrow head, the weight. the cam angle means higher holding but smaller range.. if you have a set and you find one is too big to place the next size usually fits perfectly.
generally they feel solid and well made/difficult to break.
I place sizes 0/1/2 the most(I have 0/1/2/3/4/5/6). placing the size 0 and getting a 5kn placement feels like Christmas in some situations
I have the metolius cams. I love the strong springs, the narrow head, the weight. the cam angle means higher holding but smaller range.. if you have a set and you find one is too big to place the next size usually fits perfectly.
generally they feel solid and well made/difficult to break.
I place sizes 0/1/2 the most(I have 0/1/2/3/4/5/6). placing the size 0 and getting a 5kn placement feels like Christmas in some situations
In reply to franksnb: What kind of rock/climbs/location do you climb? Interested to understand in what situations/placements you have used the 0/1/2 cams and if that would also apply to me... I've been toying with getting some of these...
Thanks for the info...
Thanks for the info...
In reply to Tyler:
I have a couple of mastercams, a zero, and a metolius tcu, the mastercam is by far the best.
I have a couple of mastercams, a zero, and a metolius tcu, the mastercam is by far the best.
In reply to LG: Hi, I've dropped you an email about your aliens. Cheers,
Kane
Kane
In reply to LG:I have sent you a PM Ben.
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
If u can get 'em in the UK. Metolius Mastercams are just as good/narrow profile with slightly better build Q. I've had mine a year and still going strong. U need orange downward in size.
> (In reply to Tyler) Aliens every Time. They simply go in a lot of placements that other cams won't.
If u can get 'em in the UK. Metolius Mastercams are just as good/narrow profile with slightly better build Q. I've had mine a year and still going strong. U need orange downward in size.
In reply to TobyA:
Well solid stemmed cams are obviously far more sensitive to movement in the rope if they aren't extended enough, whereas flexible stemmed cams have some additional spring to soak this up without moving the cams themselves. Take one of each, place them and then wiggle the krab from side to side/up and down and you'll see what I mean.
Grit in particular often has flared breaks with only a small section which is parallel enough to offer a decent placement. It doesn't take much movement to walk the cams out of this. I've never found this to be much of a problem, but I always take care to extend placements like that.
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> 'Seem' far more likely? Do you have some and found this? Only, my 3CUs have never walked. In fact aren't 3CUs meant to be mechanically impossible to walk. I've don't remember any of my small to mid-size 4CUs walking either.
>
> [...]
>
> 'Seem' far more likely? Do you have some and found this? Only, my 3CUs have never walked. In fact aren't 3CUs meant to be mechanically impossible to walk. I've don't remember any of my small to mid-size 4CUs walking either.
>
Well solid stemmed cams are obviously far more sensitive to movement in the rope if they aren't extended enough, whereas flexible stemmed cams have some additional spring to soak this up without moving the cams themselves. Take one of each, place them and then wiggle the krab from side to side/up and down and you'll see what I mean.
> I've never got what people manage to do to make their cams walk, it happens to rarely in my experience. But it never happens with wee cams because they are always squashed into such snug placements.
Grit in particular often has flared breaks with only a small section which is parallel enough to offer a decent placement. It doesn't take much movement to walk the cams out of this. I've never found this to be much of a problem, but I always take care to extend placements like that.
In reply to victim of mathematics:
wasnt stem flexibility also important for holding power in horizontal cracks and pockets???
(disclaimer : i have very little experience of climbing on gear...)
wasnt stem flexibility also important for holding power in horizontal cracks and pockets???
(disclaimer : i have very little experience of climbing on gear...)
In reply to Tyler:
I use the smallest Mastercams in preference to my Alien - to me they feel a lot more solid and better made. Even before the official warnings, I felt the Aliens felt a bit rickerty and "homemade".
I use the smallest Mastercams in preference to my Alien - to me they feel a lot more solid and better made. Even before the official warnings, I felt the Aliens felt a bit rickerty and "homemade".
In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
If CCH are in commercial trouble, I rather suspect it is to with ill informed bad publicity propagated in the manner demonstrated by some posters here. I have a full set of aliens and they are superb bits of kit.Its a real shame if a company with such a great product gets crapped on because of widespread misinformation.
Do a search, theres been mutiple threads on here about it, it has'nt stopped me using my aliens... and the issues were with particular batches which had a product recall.
FWIW
After aliens I prefer DMM quad cams
pity neither are now available!
If CCH are in commercial trouble, I rather suspect it is to with ill informed bad publicity propagated in the manner demonstrated by some posters here. I have a full set of aliens and they are superb bits of kit.Its a real shame if a company with such a great product gets crapped on because of widespread misinformation.
Do a search, theres been mutiple threads on here about it, it has'nt stopped me using my aliens... and the issues were with particular batches which had a product recall.
FWIW
After aliens I prefer DMM quad cams
pity neither are now available!
In reply to JimR: The inventor died and his wife is selling CCH, you're the one misinformed.
In reply to sandy:
hey sandy I climb in and around Dundee; check the my log book. I haven't had a problem with different rock types so far.
I would be dubious of small cams in a large grained granite/wet limestone or a filthy/lichenous mountain placement.
I have hand pulled a text book cam placement from a lichenous crack, lichen must be a good lubricant!
hey sandy I climb in and around Dundee; check the my log book. I haven't had a problem with different rock types so far.
I would be dubious of small cams in a large grained granite/wet limestone or a filthy/lichenous mountain placement.
I have hand pulled a text book cam placement from a lichenous crack, lichen must be a good lubricant!
In reply to FreshSlate:
oh really!! I'm not the one spraying allegations about a product's reliability.. and if you don't think that's had an effect on the company's valuation then you're in friggin cloud cuckoo land!
> (In reply to JimR) The inventor died and his wife is selling CCH, you're the one misinformed.
oh really!! I'm not the one spraying allegations about a product's reliability.. and if you don't think that's had an effect on the company's valuation then you're in friggin cloud cuckoo land!
That's why most companies have competant Q/C to prevent poor confidence in their product. Yeah you're right I SINGLE HANDEDLY TOOK DOWN CCH and it has nothing to do with the wife stating that emotionally she couldn't run the shop anymore. They'd still be making them if he didn't die. Don't blame me for the fact their being sold ROFL. I hope they get bought up and make great products again but you're just being ridiculous. I was stating facts unlike yourself, saying they had q/c issues and are being sold is FACT. Look that up before you blame UKC for wrecking American gear companies.
In reply to FreshSlate:
your original post sets the tone of all your posts and is hardly balanced
"- by - r0x0r.wolfo ? on - 14:18 Thu
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
Damn that was pointless. They don't make aliens any more plus there was issues with the quality control so you may be climbing with a piece of gear that should of never left the manufacturer. So now you have to pay over the odds on ebay for a used/possibly defective product."
your original post sets the tone of all your posts and is hardly balanced
"- by - r0x0r.wolfo ? on - 14:18 Thu
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
> (In reply to Tyler) Aliens every Time. They simply go in a lot of placements that other cams won't.
Damn that was pointless. They don't make aliens any more plus there was issues with the quality control so you may be climbing with a piece of gear that should of never left the manufacturer. So now you have to pay over the odds on ebay for a used/possibly defective product."
Look at the context of the thread. Plenty of people talking about the positives of aliens but left out massive details. By including them myself i've added balance. By telling people to hush about certain issues you're not doing yourself any favours to then accuse of imbalance due to someone's 'tone' on the internet. It's been mentioned now and if it prompts someone to ask for a batch number before lining the pockets of ebay then all the better.
In reply to JimR:
It wasn't misinformation, because the company never really answered a number of climbers' concerns after a number of aliens snapped in falls causing accidents. Then climbers started doing their own tests on the gear and finding concerns outside of the original recall group. Others also did test and found that their cams were stronger than quoted, but uncertainty and a lack of communication is seems to have been what ultimately sank what after all was a tiny firm.
> I have a full set of aliens and they are superb bits of kit.Its a real shame if a company with such a great product gets crapped on because of widespread misinformation.
It wasn't misinformation, because the company never really answered a number of climbers' concerns after a number of aliens snapped in falls causing accidents. Then climbers started doing their own tests on the gear and finding concerns outside of the original recall group. Others also did test and found that their cams were stronger than quoted, but uncertainty and a lack of communication is seems to have been what ultimately sank what after all was a tiny firm.
In reply to JimR:
not sure why you're accusing me of "ill informed bad publicity" - I was merely stating a personal preference. I have used mastercams and aliens and just happen to prefer the action of master cams. For some reason aliens don't feel so trustworthy to me. I know from experience that the aliens work but I'm not as reassured when they go in - just something ineffable to do with the action (in much the same way, I don't like walnuts cf WC rocks even though I know they are perfectly good gear).
not sure why you're accusing me of "ill informed bad publicity" - I was merely stating a personal preference. I have used mastercams and aliens and just happen to prefer the action of master cams. For some reason aliens don't feel so trustworthy to me. I know from experience that the aliens work but I'm not as reassured when they go in - just something ineffable to do with the action (in much the same way, I don't like walnuts cf WC rocks even though I know they are perfectly good gear).
In reply to Tyler: Master cams are the shit! They stay in better than aliens, and I think the c3 are not flexible enough and move around too much. I've not used the zeros, but heard they are too flexible and therefore hard to get out.
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