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The next meeting of the South West Area will take place at the Count House, Bosigran, at 7.30 pm on Saturday 2nd October.
As well as the meeting on the Saturday night, there will be climbing over the weekend and curry will be served.
There are places at the hut reserved for those wishing to stay over. To add items to the agenda, or if you want to stay at the hut, contact me or the area secretary, Sam Mayfield.
- Jerzy Wieczorek
As well as the meeting on the Saturday night, there will be climbing over the weekend and curry will be served.
There are places at the hut reserved for those wishing to stay over. To add items to the agenda, or if you want to stay at the hut, contact me or the area secretary, Sam Mayfield.
- Jerzy Wieczorek
In reply to avonclimber: I'll be there as long as my Easyjet flight is on time.
Regards, Pete
Regards, Pete
In reply to pete3685:
Anyone want to offer car share or needs a lift post on here.
I would take a few down only I have a 2 seat car. sorry :0)
Sam
Anyone want to offer car share or needs a lift post on here.
I would take a few down only I have a 2 seat car. sorry :0)
Sam
In reply to avonclimber: As Jerzy says, there will be an amazing home made mother of all curry banquets that evening for all attendees. I can hardly wait.
Martin
Martin
In reply to avonclimber:
The agenda is now available on the BMC Community site: http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=258
The agenda is now available on the BMC Community site: http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=258
In reply to avonclimber:
Had a look at the agenda and this seems to be missing...
In reply to Rich Mayfield:
can we also open a debate about the re equiping of the sports routes at Carn Vellan, including how best to tidy up the mess left by the bolt choppers.
cheers
by - Rich Mayfield on - 04 Aug 2010
In reply to aw:
Will put it on the agenda.
Had a look at the agenda and this seems to be missing...
In reply to Rich Mayfield:
can we also open a debate about the re equiping of the sports routes at Carn Vellan, including how best to tidy up the mess left by the bolt choppers.
cheers
by - Rich Mayfield on - 04 Aug 2010
In reply to aw:
Will put it on the agenda.
In reply to aw:
3. Regional Development and Activities
a) Area endorsement for Lands End Climbing Club fixed protection statement (see below)
...
Lands End Climbing Club fixed protection statement
...
In light of the recent chipping and drilling debacle at Lands End, the continued presence of bolted routes at Carn Vellan and many historical bolts and drilled pegs currently rotting away, the club would like endorsement for our policy on fixed gear from the BMC Area Meeting.
Sounds like a very debatable item to moi.
3. Regional Development and Activities
a) Area endorsement for Lands End Climbing Club fixed protection statement (see below)
...
Lands End Climbing Club fixed protection statement
...
In light of the recent chipping and drilling debacle at Lands End, the continued presence of bolted routes at Carn Vellan and many historical bolts and drilled pegs currently rotting away, the club would like endorsement for our policy on fixed gear from the BMC Area Meeting.
Sounds like a very debatable item to moi.
In reply to James Jackson:
That's not really an adequate reply is it. Rich Mayfield said he would put my topic on the agenda and I would argue that it addresses a quite a seperate issue.
I really do hope that this omission is corrected. I emailed Rich Mayfield shortly after the forum posting but got no reply.
Posting here isn't really the way I would like to do this. But it is important for the BMC area meeting to be seen to be operating in a fair and transparent manner.
That's not really an adequate reply is it. Rich Mayfield said he would put my topic on the agenda and I would argue that it addresses a quite a seperate issue.
I really do hope that this omission is corrected. I emailed Rich Mayfield shortly after the forum posting but got no reply.
Posting here isn't really the way I would like to do this. But it is important for the BMC area meeting to be seen to be operating in a fair and transparent manner.
In reply to aw:
Fair and transparent!? You already accused the bolt choppers of messing up Carn Vellan. I can assure you it was not they who drill the holes, fixed the bolts in place in a bolt free area, plastered the cliff in cup hooks, rawlplugss, epoxy resin and 'hold removal marks'. Twelve people gave one day of their time to try and stop the rot in it's tracks by rendering over 30 bolts, in a very difficult location to access, unusable. So don't you dare accuse them of making the mess and claim to be 'fair and transparent'.
Fair and transparent!? You already accused the bolt choppers of messing up Carn Vellan. I can assure you it was not they who drill the holes, fixed the bolts in place in a bolt free area, plastered the cliff in cup hooks, rawlplugss, epoxy resin and 'hold removal marks'. Twelve people gave one day of their time to try and stop the rot in it's tracks by rendering over 30 bolts, in a very difficult location to access, unusable. So don't you dare accuse them of making the mess and claim to be 'fair and transparent'.
In reply to aw:
>can we also open a debate about the re equiping of the sports routes at >Carn Vellan, including how best to tidy up the mess left by the bolt >choppers.
I asked for agenda items to be sent to me. Does the above summarize it?
- Jerzy
>can we also open a debate about the re equiping of the sports routes at >Carn Vellan, including how best to tidy up the mess left by the bolt >choppers.
I asked for agenda items to be sent to me. Does the above summarize it?
- Jerzy
In reply to James Jackson: Has the LECC policy changed since these matters were endlessly debated in the 90s? Then, BMC policy, reaffirmed on at least three occasions (I know, I had to minute them), and LECC policy co-incided.
"including how best to tidy up the mess left by the bolt >choppers."
I must object to this statement Jerzy as explained above, it's inaccurate and extremely unfair to the volunteers who gave up their time on the day
Mike
I must object to this statement Jerzy as explained above, it's inaccurate and extremely unfair to the volunteers who gave up their time on the day
Mike
In reply to Mike Raine: You could have added that their actions had been sanctioned by the Meeting on the preceding evening!
In reply to Mike Raine:
A question for you Mike, take a look at the images on this page and tell me it doesn't look a mess
http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/Articles/CornishBolts/index.shtml
A question for you Mike, take a look at the images on this page and tell me it doesn't look a mess
http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/Articles/CornishBolts/index.shtml
In reply to aw:
Yes it does! Who drilled the hole, who placed the bolt, the resin and all the other mess on this crag certainly not the person who cut the bolt. It's the bolt and everything else that is the eyesore not the fact the bolt is cut.
Yes it does! Who drilled the hole, who placed the bolt, the resin and all the other mess on this crag certainly not the person who cut the bolt. It's the bolt and everything else that is the eyesore not the fact the bolt is cut.
In reply to Mike Raine:
I've had a proper agenda submission, and the agenda on the BMC community pages has been updated. See http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=259
- Jerzy
I've had a proper agenda submission, and the agenda on the BMC community pages has been updated. See http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=259
- Jerzy
In reply to avonclimber: The meeting is this wekeend, and the weather looks pretty fab. PLease contact Jerzy or Sam if you want a place in the hut (courtsey of the BMC).
Both vegetarian and meaty options will be on offer for Saturday evening's meal.
Martin
Both vegetarian and meaty options will be on offer for Saturday evening's meal.
Martin
In reply to aw:
Hi aw
Rich didnt receive any email from you, but as your name is not on here or a profile we are not sure who we are talking to!
Hope you are happy with the new agenda items which Jerzy has added.
See you on Sat.
Sam Mayfield
Hi aw
Rich didnt receive any email from you, but as your name is not on here or a profile we are not sure who we are talking to!
Hope you are happy with the new agenda items which Jerzy has added.
See you on Sat.
Sam Mayfield
In reply to Mike Raine:
The job was done without any care as to the state the cliff was left in once you had made your statement and stopped the rot, as you put it. You can argue it was someone elses fault all you want, but you were the ones who did a messy job of the removal and so you bear some responsibility for the current state of the cliff.
The job was done without any care as to the state the cliff was left in once you had made your statement and stopped the rot, as you put it. You can argue it was someone elses fault all you want, but you were the ones who did a messy job of the removal and so you bear some responsibility for the current state of the cliff.
In reply to AJM:
The only responsibility we claim is having the guts to do something about the insidious creep of bolts on to the Cornish sea cliffs. I'm afraid a bolt is a bolt is a bolt whether it's a complete one or not and they shouldn't be there. I wish you all the best in your endeavor to return this cliff to its former glory but you might actually have to leave your key board and to do something about it and ranting at me and the others involved won't change our minds that we did the right thing at the time.
The only responsibility we claim is having the guts to do something about the insidious creep of bolts on to the Cornish sea cliffs. I'm afraid a bolt is a bolt is a bolt whether it's a complete one or not and they shouldn't be there. I wish you all the best in your endeavor to return this cliff to its former glory but you might actually have to leave your key board and to do something about it and ranting at me and the others involved won't change our minds that we did the right thing at the time.
In reply to Mike Raine:
That's ironic really, given they're still there. A proper cleanup would have removed them.
You may well have done the right thing (I fully support bolt removal elsewhere and can't condone chipping as you've said happened at Carn Vellan and so publicly elsewhere, but I've never had a strong opinion about bolts at Carn Vellan because to me it felt a very different crag to the others I've been to in Cornwall), but it wasn't done very neatly.
As for the crack about getting out of my armchair - why should it be down to me to clear up your and Marks mess? If you cared as much about the cliff as you say you wouldn't have left it looking like that.
> I'm afraid a bolt is a bolt is a bolt whether it's a complete one or not and they shouldn't be there.
That's ironic really, given they're still there. A proper cleanup would have removed them.
You may well have done the right thing (I fully support bolt removal elsewhere and can't condone chipping as you've said happened at Carn Vellan and so publicly elsewhere, but I've never had a strong opinion about bolts at Carn Vellan because to me it felt a very different crag to the others I've been to in Cornwall), but it wasn't done very neatly.
As for the crack about getting out of my armchair - why should it be down to me to clear up your and Marks mess? If you cared as much about the cliff as you say you wouldn't have left it looking like that.
In reply to AJM:
You sound reasonable!
Of course it would have been nice to have fully cleaned up the bolter's mess but quite simply the logistics of the cliff and the time available meant we could do no more than snip the bolts. I remind you that the crag was literally covered in bolts, cup hooks, rawlplugs, epoxy resin and cleaning scars. Talk and meetings had got us no-where desperate actions was decided on and undertaken.
It's because we cared about the crag and the whole Cornish crag environment, to say nothing of democracy and climbing ethics, that we felt a strong message had to be sent to the perpetrators that we did what we did. History has shown that it stopped the rot.
I sincerely hope you have good a productive meeting on Saturday. I won't be there due to work but I would also find it very trying emotionally. I cannot for the life in me see any reason or justification to place bolts on natural seacliffs or outcrops in Cornwall (or Pembroke or Gogarth or the Lleyn or Fairhead or the Burren or well you get the idea, bolts at Ansteys and Portland however brilliant!)
You sound reasonable!
Of course it would have been nice to have fully cleaned up the bolter's mess but quite simply the logistics of the cliff and the time available meant we could do no more than snip the bolts. I remind you that the crag was literally covered in bolts, cup hooks, rawlplugs, epoxy resin and cleaning scars. Talk and meetings had got us no-where desperate actions was decided on and undertaken.
It's because we cared about the crag and the whole Cornish crag environment, to say nothing of democracy and climbing ethics, that we felt a strong message had to be sent to the perpetrators that we did what we did. History has shown that it stopped the rot.
I sincerely hope you have good a productive meeting on Saturday. I won't be there due to work but I would also find it very trying emotionally. I cannot for the life in me see any reason or justification to place bolts on natural seacliffs or outcrops in Cornwall (or Pembroke or Gogarth or the Lleyn or Fairhead or the Burren or well you get the idea, bolts at Ansteys and Portland however brilliant!)
In reply to Mike Raine:
I can well understand the frustration that drove the action, but I'm not sure where the time pressure came from? If chopping the bolts before some deadline stopped the new bolts appearing, that's all well and good, but it's now several years later, seemingly no time pressures, but yet the cliff is still covered in (snipped) bolts, as well as presumably these cup hooks and so on - it's no better than it was before. It seems a shame that the cliff has been used as a canvas for a grand statement about all the bad things that were happening there and elsewhere, but no-one actually tried to repair the damage to said canvas. Once the statement was made everyone seems to have forgotten about all the crap that got left behind, and from my experience on a purely visual level I spotted the snipped bolts long before the complete ones - the cliff is more visually despoiled after the grand statement about cliff vandalism than it was before...
As a genuine question, do you know how mark (I assume it was mark at any rate) placed the bolts - if he could get close enough into the cliff to drill them, couldn't the same means have been used in order to cut them off flush?
I can well understand the frustration that drove the action, but I'm not sure where the time pressure came from? If chopping the bolts before some deadline stopped the new bolts appearing, that's all well and good, but it's now several years later, seemingly no time pressures, but yet the cliff is still covered in (snipped) bolts, as well as presumably these cup hooks and so on - it's no better than it was before. It seems a shame that the cliff has been used as a canvas for a grand statement about all the bad things that were happening there and elsewhere, but no-one actually tried to repair the damage to said canvas. Once the statement was made everyone seems to have forgotten about all the crap that got left behind, and from my experience on a purely visual level I spotted the snipped bolts long before the complete ones - the cliff is more visually despoiled after the grand statement about cliff vandalism than it was before...
As a genuine question, do you know how mark (I assume it was mark at any rate) placed the bolts - if he could get close enough into the cliff to drill them, couldn't the same means have been used in order to cut them off flush?
In reply to AJM:
I sincerely hope a group can be put together to complete the job once it's recognised that like Pembroke, Gogarth and the Lleyn the Cornish sea cliffs are no place for bolts, maybe you can lead the job?(it won't be easy)
I sincerely hope a group can be put together to complete the job once it's recognised that like Pembroke, Gogarth and the Lleyn the Cornish sea cliffs are no place for bolts, maybe you can lead the job?(it won't be easy)
Hi All
Just one thing to remember about Saturday's meeting:
The SW bolt policy (and the Cornwall bolt policy) is clear that any change must be raised at an area meeting and discussed and voted on at a subsequent meeting local to the area affected.
So at *this* area meeting we can discuss the proposals and agree what action, including a further open meeting, if we decide so, to take.
- Jerzy Wieczorek
Just one thing to remember about Saturday's meeting:
The SW bolt policy (and the Cornwall bolt policy) is clear that any change must be raised at an area meeting and discussed and voted on at a subsequent meeting local to the area affected.
So at *this* area meeting we can discuss the proposals and agree what action, including a further open meeting, if we decide so, to take.
- Jerzy Wieczorek
In reply to Dark Mavis:
>when is the Gloucester one?
Planned for Sunday 21st November, at Gloucester Climbing Centre. Details will be confirmed shortly.
>when is the Gloucester one?
Planned for Sunday 21st November, at Gloucester Climbing Centre. Details will be confirmed shortly.
In reply to avonclimber: A big thanks from us for a reasoned and sensible discussion, a promise of near future resolution and a scrummy curry! Compliments to the chefs
Cx
Cx
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