UKC

Any tips? Is it as bad as it looks???? looking to get it ticked off this week aslong as the weather is good .

MB

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: Start at the bottom and work your way up.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: It can't be as bad as it looks, it looks more like e5 than hvs.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

Its much much better than it looks.

1. The roof from below looks horizontal, its not. Look from the side.
2. Its almost always green in places under the roof, but almost always this doesn't affect any of the climbing.
3. Ignore anybody that says jamming is required (including the Rockfax guide). Its a jug ladder and much easier than FBD.

If you get on ok, try nearby Wombat (E2 5b), the hard move is on a vertical section low down, the roof is a romp.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

Stay cool and it's steady away. Big holds and you can take a lot of the strain on your feet/legs on the enormous flakes

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

It is a lovely route, the crux id say was stopping to place gear in the roof. Once you sling the cheese block, have your hex/cam ready to pop in and just blast on. There arn't really any stopper moves, just lovely roof climbing on jugs in an awesome situation!
I'd recommend spliting it into two pitches for your 1st go, and leave most of your rack at the belay!

Enjoy

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

its pretty easy to be honest it is soft at HVS I found valkarie a lot harder. but is a different style of climbing.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: Getting on it and committing is the hurdle on this one, once you start the roof and get the kit in (people will tell you what you need) it is really quite straightforward.
as others have said although it looks a lot harder other hvs's in the area are harder ! sauls crack, mincer, matinee.

cracking route though and a must do.
go up to the roof and have a look as the ledge to rest on a few feet below it is a hands off job and when your ready to go GO

In reply to grubes:

Don't be silly. No-one has ever accused it of being that!

In reply to jas wood:

sauls crack is not harder than the sloth !

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I've always thought it was soft E1 5a, but am consistently outvoted!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Depends on the climber. For thugs that climb indoors a lot in Winter, it is. I'd certainly agree that its a lot easier than Sauls and the others mentioned above.

In reply to Jim Hamilton: IMO sloth is a mind game and is technically straight forward and not strenuos if you "use your loaf" or more importantly your feet !
Sauls involves a bit of jamming some wide bridging and is a bit go-y (sp) over the roof i thought.
Mincer is just hard full stop !
Matinee is definately harder and is easy to fall out of the top.

think it depends on your climbing style.

In reply to jas wood:

The thing about Saul's Crack is that it has got much harder over the years with all the wear - both loss of friction on the rock, and wear from Friends in the crack. I thought it was about (low end) E1 last time I did it.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: I left it for ages as it looks intimidating, but I found it to be technically straightforward for HVS provided you can deal with the exposure ok. I personally didn't bother to stop to place gear in the overhang as the holds were massive and didn't feel the need.

The line is just simply amazing and one of my favourite ticks at any grade, pure class.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I did it recently and thought it felt harder than when I did it about 15 years previously. Thought it felt more like HVS 5b but I could be being fat and weak!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Really? I once had a climbing friend who insisted it was Hard Severe!

In reply to Rob Davies:

I did it and Saul's Crack on two evening visits one week and thought if Saul's crack was VS then Sloth must be hard severe. This was around 50 years ago though, before bits of the flake broke off and Saul's was polished.

In reply to smudge:

Welcome to my world!

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: the hardest part is starting the roof ,just take a deep breath and go.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I did both on Saturday, and definitely did find Saul's Crack harder.

In reply to silo: def felt closest to falling turning the lip but by then I was definitely in a bit of a muddle

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I don't think there's anything silly about that claim. I have to say I was rather surprised by how easy it was when I led it years ago. Considering it's fame and reputation and the reputation of it's first ascensionist's taste for thuggy routes I thought it was a pushover for the grade using modern gear. I'm sure it may have felt a little neckier once upon a time. I'm not trying to be a smart arse and puff up my chest, I'm a very ordinary climber, so no willy waving before I'm accused, just reporting my feelings. My advice to anyone who can lead a well graded VS would be to just get on and do it. It's a nice climb, without a doubt, but there are thousands of way harder HVS's and even VS's.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

You could argue that it's a soft touch technically but how hard you find it probably depends not only on your own strength and confidence but also on how intimidated you are by its reputation and the sheer damned size of that roof. Not many HVS leaders will have gone anywhere near such a massive overhang.
The first time I did it I was gripped witless standing on the ledge below the roof. It just seemed to go out forever and I had visions of running out of strength and slamming into the slab. But once I took a deep breath and went for it I was amazed how comfortable it felt compared to what I'd built up in my mind.
Of course the big risk then is that next time you do it you underestimate it and it bites you. Fortunately I've always found it extremely daunting so always get a pleasant surprise..

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

The crux with this one is leaving the floor, I put it off for years. Other than that it's very steady climbing, on big to huge holds with the odd move you'd not want to muff. Fair if unlikely looking at HVS I thought.

jk

In reply to deepsoup:

i haven't climbed them for some years and surprised sauls crack now appears much harder - are you sure its not just short people not getting the high handhold on the left at the overlap ?!

I would disagree that Sloth is a suitable HVS for the VS climber to jump on - although possibly safe in that they will most likely retreat from roof. I seem to remember there was some gear to encourage you to set off under the roof, but it would most likely come out if you did fall at the lip trying to get a hex in, resulting in a nasty landing ?

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I'd agree that it's not the best choice for an early HVS. It's well protected, but only if you decide to spare the strength to place the stuff. I went for it with just the gear on the cheeseblock, and it was a memorable experience moving around the lip.

In reply to grubes:


What planet are you on, I thought it was nails for HVS. Anywhere else in the country it would get E1.

In reply to MHutch:

Sorry, I should have said anybody who "comfortably and competently" leads VS should just get on and do it if it's what they fancy. Maybe not as their first ever HVS though, as that would clearly chuck in a bit of a psychological issue. According to Mitchell's profile he's onsighted E2 so the Sloth oughta be a gimme. He must have done it by now. It would be nice to hear his thoughts.

I also used the same as my last piece and didn't find the roof terribly intimidating at all once I'd started through it. Passing the lip is certainly not difficult for the grade. I stand by my thoughts that it is far from as stiff a climb as I expected and I have climbed far more intimidating and difficult VS's. It might help if like me your apprenticeship and usual climbing substrate is (was) gritstone. I couldn't say how much of an advantage that bestows. Now I live in Oz and haven't touched grit since 2007, maybe I'd have a shocker on it if I came back and have to eat my words.

: )

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Alun:


Wow, Alun! And you onsight E5. I would normally bow to your better judgement if I hadn't actually done the route. But I have to say it was very easy for me when my onsight limit was E1, so the planet must temporarily have been experiencing a low gravity anomaly that day : )

It wouldn't get E1 in Yorkshire in a million years.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

what are these VS's that are far more difficult and intimidating than the sloth ? I must avoid them !

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

True - if you're a bit of a natural thug and it suits your style, perhaps. A bit of a shock to the system otherwise, I guess. I was a regular E1 leader before I got the guts up to give it a go. I think I wouldn't have committed to it when I was a steady VS leader, which is probably just as well!

Give it a go mate! gearage is bomber!

In reply to mikeyjbs:

I'd agree with many here that the Sloth is suprisingly ameanable at HVS. Its certainly a whole grade easier the FBD and easier than Hardings Super Direct.

I found Sauls Crack desperate in comparison.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Definitely not it in my case. I just found the whole climb much more sustained than the Sloth, the half dozen or more moves leading up to the crux didn't seem to me to be that much easier than the crux itself. (And I'm not sure if I went the right way or not, but I found a bit of a sting in the tail at the very top too.)

If you want a theory as to why the Sloth is perceived to be easier than it once was, here's mine:
Indoor walls.

Just about everyone who would contemplate climbing the Sloth these days climbs indoors, and just about every indoor wall has at least one steep wall for the super-strong to train on, with a jug ladder through it for the rest of us.

I always thought those jug-ladders, while fun, were totally unrealistic because there's no way any real climb so steep could possibly be so juggy. But I was wrong. ;O)

In reply to Alun:
Ok just checked my log.book.
My first HVS was sweatyman at shooters considered a easy HVS I fund that more difficult and intimdating than the sloth (could be because it was my first HVS)
Second was Knights move which I am not getting into but with cams is VS without probably HVS. This was easier than the sloth.
Third was Tody's wall another soft HVS found this harder than the sloth

Fourth was the sloth.
It was so easy I linked it in one pitch. I placed 4 pieces of gear including two peices at the cheese block (sling and nut).
I did not bother with the gear in the top of the roof just ran it out from the cheese block.
The roof is massive jugs all the way I was not worried when I was up there.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

OK it's horses for courses and one of those things which is evidently, hugely dependent on your tastes and set of skills. There are certainly routes from the 30's in Snowdonia that get VS that I would say were far more challenging in both difficulty and worry factor for me when I led them. Menlove Edwards' routes are good examples. Or how about The Crack on Gimmer.

Another Whillans route White Rose Flake at Brimham is harder but not intimidating if it's roofs that scare you. In fact there are a bunch of VS's at Brimham that I thought harder than The Sloth. Almost all the HVS's there would be harder than the Sloth and it doesn't get near to the difficulty of the Brimham E1's.

These are all my feelings and certainly not an attempt to claim I have unique access to the absolute truth when it comes to rock climbs and their grades.

I was posting to give an answer to the original question. In simpler words. I think it's not as bad as it looks. I think it's quite easy. Just trust your ability if it seems up to the grade. And do it. Unless you are extremely unlucky, if you onsight E2, you'll breeze it. If you comfortably and competently lead VS regularly, you shouldn't find it too hard either.

All opinions. Just opinions.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to deepsoup:


You may have some kind of point but I for one have never been a regular indoor climber. I find it pretty soulless. Indoor experience had no part in shaping my own opinion that The Sloth is a relatively easy route compared with many other HVS's and VS's. I'd say the my feelings were arrived at from a long and ongoing love of climbing outside on rock and gathering memories, experiences and opinions along the way.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to grubes:

It is NOT soft at HVS you thug!

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:

I'm finding it a bit bizarre that these comments keep coming from people who have hard onsights in their profiles. When you reach the level of the E5 onsight do you lose touch with the lower grades and how they feel to people operating at their max on these lower grades. My best is E3. Well below Pimpernels and I say it's not a difficult HVS at all. I'm also a big soft jessy. Not a thug, so it's nowt to do wi'avin big 'airy arms.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

I'd say he's hit the nail on the head.

On a separate issue, what do climbers that don't like indoor walls do on dark damp wintery evenings? Hibernate?

In reply to Karl Bromelow:



of course - i just thought you might be doing some long-distance sandbagging !. I'd forgotten the Brimham VS's (although to my mind they don't have the same intimidation factor).

In reply to jonny2vests:

No they climb in the dark and the damp and the cold, and/or emigrate.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Jim Hamilton:
I'd forgotten the Brimham VS's (although to my mind they don't have the same intimidation factor).

You're right about that. The Brimham VS's were used as examples of more difficult VS's. I didn't think the Sloth was intimidating when I was on it though. I found the reputation intimidating before I ever saw it. Once there it seemed like another nice climb to do and nothing exceptionally mindblowing. I personally am more intimidated by thin lines, thin cracks, crimps, slopers than steepish juggy lines with obvious gear placements. I'm honestly not playing some sandbagging game. This is clearly showing how our worlds can vary so greatly and how subjective difficulty is no matter how hard we try to standardize systems. I just checked with my partner who has climbed heaps with me over 16 years but never herself led harder than E1 on trad. I didn't tell her what this thread was about or what I thought and she reckoned it was easy. So there. It must be. She's always right!

Cheers, Karl

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: I agree with the comments about indoor walls. I didn't think I'd ever have a cat in hell's chance of ever climbing it, but after a few weeks of besting the indoor wall it's starting to come into range...

In reply to Karl Bromelow:
All these comments about indoor walls make sense, and I agree that it's interesting how different people rate different things. I thought Saul's Crack was a walk compared to the Sloth. Mind you, I did the latter in a rain shower, but the roof kept everything nice and dry.

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
I will take that as a compliment as I consider my self weak

I am very much a slab climber. Love bould intimidating routes with ground fall potential. So not routes like the sloth at all.

In my opinion it was soft. In yours clearly not.
I also tried Roscoe's and lead valkarie that same day. With a bit of bouldering, leading the sloth and soloing technical slab as a warm up.

Roscoes - I could not commit to a low dificult move and down climbed will save it for another day.
Valkarie - Scared shitless on the traverse. I thought it's more of a physcal challenge than the sloth and felt more like I was going to fall off.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

I always defend British climbing. It's where my heart is but let me show you an Australian grade 16 (VS bordering soft touch HVS). It's called Basilisk Direct and can be found at Bundaleer in the Grampians:

http://www.mountainproject.com/images/78/49/106117849_large_a72066.jpg

http://www.chockstone.org/Grampians/Bundaleer/Members/NeilM/Genisis1l.jpg

Let's not let these colonials think we're intimidated by The Sloth when they give this VS.

Ok that's enough from me.

Good night all.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

Well that's as maybe but i don't really think it's a VS experience and that is what the trad grade describes at the end of the day.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

I was a steady VS leader when I tried The Sloth as my first route of the day with a hangover. I put a too long sling over the cheese block and fell off the start of the roof. Nearly broke my wrist bouncing off the pedestal.
It's the one route I've failed to lead that I'm not in a rush to have another go at, which is a shame as it's a fantastic line.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

The Sloth is technically straightforward, the hardest move (4c) is the short wall up to the cheese-block. Of course it isn't the technical difficulties that are the problem, the roof is huge and the route is fiercely intimidating the 1st time you try it. Repeat ascents are much easier.

Many years ago a small white guide to Staffs climbing (can't remember its actual title) suggested it might be Hard Severe!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I remember looking at someone dangling under it from Right Route, my first ever climb, and simply not understanding the mechanics of how it might be climbed, let alone that I might be able to do it one day.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: I thought HVS for the scare-factor. The gear on the cheeseblock is already by your feet when you start out over the roof, and a fall into the slab would not be pretty. Easy enough when you finally commit though.

This coming from a wuss

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

No they don't. They watch x-sphincter or something.

I like your photo of the Blue Lake Karl. I might be moving down under soon!

In reply to mitchellbowen1990: What ever you do dont ask this guy KTT

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

Have faith that a perfect big (8ish) Hex placement is available halfway across, just after you committ fully to the roof.

In reply to grubes:

If you ran it out imagine what the route would be graded with those holds and no gear. Not soft HVS I imagine. One issue with roof adjectival grades is the stamina to do the route and place the gear on the way. As for someones requests on possible harder juggy VS climbs there may be a few steep ones at Woodhouse Scar.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

I think the problem with this topic is that stamina is the least objective element of the adjectival grade. Things like danger are far more measurable and less prone to interpretation.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:

Did this as my first gritstone route, fantastic climb, and a piece of piss once you dare to set off, it just looks so intimidating from below.

But what does it mean to "use yer loaf"?
I assume it must mean head, but don't see how that applies to this climb?

In reply to Ztephan:

It was a Whillans' joke, meaning 'use your head i.e. brains', but was obviously deliberately intended to sound slightly ambiguous so that onlookers (such as Eric Byne) weren't quite sure that he didn't mean it literally.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Aha, no wonder I didn't get it.

Cheers

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:
Its easy really, but I expect lots of people have told you that. Nowhere near as hard as eg FBD, just uber-intimidating.

A mate got all the way out to the lip, placed gear then down-climbed all the way back for a rest. Plonker!

In reply to Si dH:

For my Peak book I took shots of Simon Nadin attempting to repeat his own desperate route that tackles the overhang a long way to the left of The Sloth. Unfortunately it was a very warm evening in June and far too hot and sweaty, but he had at least four attempts at the crux, returning each time down the Sloth as a 'descent route' (with no runners), for a rest. Made it look c. 2a.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
A bit more understandable when you're pysching up for something desperate out left on the roof, not really when you've just got to do one more jug-pull to finish

Those routes left of the Sloth are very impressive. I saw someone do one of them (Loculus Lie) last year; he made it look a path. Stamina doesn't begin to describe it.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Well I don't know about "they" but I did when I lived there. I saw in the new millennium half way up a sopping wet Angel's Wall at Caley by headtorch as the fireworks went off in Otley. I found a dead body once while climbing in Scooby Doo conditions there. Seeking dry rock in the most overhanging areas, I found the poor fella under the cave beneath Blockbuster, water droplets condensing on the tight blue skin of his clawlike hands resting on his chest frozen in one final exhalation. I legged it to the phonebox on the A660 and had to give a statement in the Otley police station interview rooms. Many a happy damp day climbing in a bowl of pea soup in Ilkley Quarry. Wet solos up Middlefell Buttress. Long evenings by the fire in the Old Dungeon Ghyll throughout winter. Walking down from winter routes in the Lakes or Scotland in the gathering early gloom. Plenty of things for a climber to do other than pull on plastic, which I have done occassionally. I don't completely dismiss it. If I did I be stuffed around here. If you are moving to Oz or Aotearoa, think hard about your proximity to rock if you are as keen as your profile indicates. I'm tortured by the shoddy rock round my surf breaks.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

Thats Yorkshire Grit for you.


Yeah, but you're not trying to tell me that visiting damp crags at night was something you did more often than not surely? I mean, I go lantern bouldering etc, but not 5 times a week.


I've applied for a job in Melbourne (at the University). Been there before and been to most of the major destinations in Victoria. Any idea if there's much worthwhile stuff within evenings reach from Melbourne?

In reply to jonny2vests:
Plastic or rock?

Only kidding.

There's nothing of any value at all that is useful as an evening venue from central Melbourne. There's barely anything of no value at all in fact. Melbourne is constructed on a vast depressing flatland devoid of solid rock. The hills nearby barely have an exposed rock bigger than a shoe box. Lysterfield has the only boulders big enough to be of any interest whatsoever to a rock climber and they would not warrant a visit if they were anywhere but in your back garden in the UK. Melbourne is a hopeless place for avid rock climbers unless they can be satisfied by plastic (flaming expensive gyms) or occasional massive drives to the Grampians, Arapiles or Mount Buffalo. Closer venues are The Cathedral Ranges, You Yangs, Hanging Rock, Camel's Hump, Werribee Gorge etc. None of them are anywhere near close enough to consider an evening venue if you live close to the city. They are all daytrips at least. I don't live in Melbourne, I live on the Mornington Peninsula for the surf which saves my sanity that is threatened by the lack of rock. I guarantee that if you are a keen climber you will climb far,far less than you ever would have imagined you would if you move to Melbourne. It is not a good place to be a rock climber. That's the simple truth. Add to that the complete lack of rock climbing culture and lack of sympathy from government/park authorities (same thing) and you're really up against it. I used to work in Melbourne for the University/Centre for Eye Research Australia and commute 2hrs each way from my home by the open ocean. It nearly killed me. Now I live in poverty (occasionally proofreading research papers for my old team but more often working as a builder's labourer, landscape gardener's labourer and professional surf photographer) but happy with the waves, life away from the city, and more time with my partner and small boy. I'm not trying to put a dampener on your potential move but don't kid yourself into thinking this land is as lucky as it reckons. It's not if you're a climber in Melbourne. Oh yeah, the weather stinks here too. Rains way more than it ever did in Leeds for 7 months of the year and then goes okay with a spike of something life threatening around February usually.

For all the lowdown check out http://www.chockstone.org if you haven't already.

This bit makes for particularly depressing reading:

http://www.chockstone.org/Melbourne/Melbourne.htm

If you do end up coming here please get in touch and it would be a pleasure to climb with you. We could share the driving!! I'm not always such a doom monger.

Cheers, Karl

In reply to Karl Bromelow:

Thanks Karl. I've sent you an email.