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Hi there, anyone know what a reasonable price for a guide would be to climb tower ridge, ben nevis?
In reply to climber2011: why not have a look at the classified ads on here?
In reply to sphagnum:
pmsl
> (In reply to climber2011)
>
> 20 % discount if you offer to carry the bolt gun.
>
> 20 % discount if you offer to carry the bolt gun.
pmsl
In reply to climber2011: You should find someone for round about £200.
In reply to FrJ:
Bloody nora, I'd take you up for that!
> (In reply to climber2011) You should find someone for round about £200.
Bloody nora, I'd take you up for that!
In reply to Tony the Blade:
I thought it was steep too <200 not tower ridge>
anywhere between 100 and 150 I'd put it. Be cheaper for the OP if he and a mate were guided up, can split the cost then but the base cost may well be more if the guide has to look after 2 rather than 1 climber. Lots of MLs offer free trips out for their logbooks, hook up with one of those and offer to pay for pertrol, beer etc
I thought it was steep too <200 not tower ridge>
anywhere between 100 and 150 I'd put it. Be cheaper for the OP if he and a mate were guided up, can split the cost then but the base cost may well be more if the guide has to look after 2 rather than 1 climber. Lots of MLs offer free trips out for their logbooks, hook up with one of those and offer to pay for pertrol, beer etc
In reply to climber2011:
Be aware of the different levels of competence out there, this is a good page to give you an idea of the levels of qualification:
http://www.mountain-environment.com/qualifications.html
Be aware of the different levels of competence out there, this is a good page to give you an idea of the levels of qualification:
http://www.mountain-environment.com/qualifications.html
In reply to sphagnum: haha, just like cliffhanger eh!!!
In reply to climber2011: Cheers for the help guys, im plannin on going tuesday maybe wed next week, hope the weather is good!!
In reply to blanchie14c:
The ML is a hillwalking qualification and not a winter climbing qualification!!!
The only winter climbing qualifications in the UK are the BMG/IFMGA Guide and the MIC...
> (In reply to Tony the Blade)
Lots of MLs offer free trips out for their logbooks, hook up with one of those and offer to pay for pertrol, beer etcThe ML is a hillwalking qualification and not a winter climbing qualification!!!
The only winter climbing qualifications in the UK are the BMG/IFMGA Guide and the MIC...
In reply to climber2011: I'd have thought £160 at least. From £200 upwards quite likely.
As an ML in a specialized field (fell running) we charge around £160 a day, I think..
I don't just give up a day, I give up a day running. To be honest I'm now much more willing to pay big prices with good companies for training when I think about that. I want them to put a price on them not being on the mountains.
As an ML in a specialized field (fell running) we charge around £160 a day, I think..
I don't just give up a day, I give up a day running. To be honest I'm now much more willing to pay big prices with good companies for training when I think about that. I want them to put a price on them not being on the mountains.
In reply to Ron Walker:
Even in summer few ML's would be comfortable guiding TR. Personally I draw the line at grade 1 scrambles, it's not a defined line, but I doubt few would go so far as TR.
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
> [...]
> Lots of MLs offer free trips out for their logbooks, hook up with one of those and offer to pay for pertrol, beer etc
>
> The ML is a hillwalking qualification and not a winter climbing qualification!!!
> The only winter climbing qualifications in the UK are the BMG/IFMGA Guide and the MIC...
> [...]
> Lots of MLs offer free trips out for their logbooks, hook up with one of those and offer to pay for pertrol, beer etc
>
> The ML is a hillwalking qualification and not a winter climbing qualification!!!
> The only winter climbing qualifications in the UK are the BMG/IFMGA Guide and the MIC...
Even in summer few ML's would be comfortable guiding TR. Personally I draw the line at grade 1 scrambles, it's not a defined line, but I doubt few would go so far as TR.
In reply to blanchie14c:
People have to make a living. If you made £100 a day and worked 5 days a week and took 2 weeks holiday you would make £25,000 a year. That's as a trained professional whose working life might be shorter than others, since it relies on physical fitness.
BUT there will be days you don't get work or days when your work is non-earning (eg promoting your company.
You may get ill or injured.
You may want bank holidays off and more than 2 weeks holiday.
You'll have to pay for your equipment, lots of washing, fuel, vehicle, client's kit (maybe), liability insurance. You might even want a pension.
It's all very well wanting a bargain or saying £200 is too much but guides do have to make a living. They don't make them in China, you know......
PS I am not, nor have ever been, a guide.
> (In reply to Tony the Blade)
> I thought it was steep too <200 not tower ridge>
> anywhere between 100 and 150 I'd put it.
> I thought it was steep too <200 not tower ridge>
> anywhere between 100 and 150 I'd put it.
People have to make a living. If you made £100 a day and worked 5 days a week and took 2 weeks holiday you would make £25,000 a year. That's as a trained professional whose working life might be shorter than others, since it relies on physical fitness.
BUT there will be days you don't get work or days when your work is non-earning (eg promoting your company.
You may get ill or injured.
You may want bank holidays off and more than 2 weeks holiday.
You'll have to pay for your equipment, lots of washing, fuel, vehicle, client's kit (maybe), liability insurance. You might even want a pension.
It's all very well wanting a bargain or saying £200 is too much but guides do have to make a living. They don't make them in China, you know......
PS I am not, nor have ever been, a guide.
In reply to IainRUK:
Thousands of people give up a day after day at their hobbies in order to work for less than £160/day. Why should guides be any different?
> (In reply to climber2011) I'd have thought £160 at least. From £200 upwards quite likely.
>
> As an ML in a specialized field (fell running) we charge around £160 a day, I think..
>
>
> I don't just give up a day, I give up a day running. To be honest I'm now much more willing to pay big prices with good companies for training when I think about that. I want them to put a price on them not being on the mountains.
>
> As an ML in a specialized field (fell running) we charge around £160 a day, I think..
>
>
> I don't just give up a day, I give up a day running. To be honest I'm now much more willing to pay big prices with good companies for training when I think about that. I want them to put a price on them not being on the mountains.
Thousands of people give up a day after day at their hobbies in order to work for less than £160/day. Why should guides be any different?
In reply to climber2011: I dont think £170 a day is unreasonabLe for a day with a guide in this Country. Its a damn sight cheaper than Guides in the Alps plus if you are in the Alps your obliged to pay food and refuge costs (and telepherique?) I had a couple of days with a Guide in the Northern Corries a couple of Years ago and felt that the prices charged were reasonable and I enjoyed the experience. More importantly it gave me good preparation for bigger tripss.
In reply to Gone for good:
Agreed. I don't want to influence the OP's choice of UK guide, so if I use the example of Canadian guide, Barry Blanchard, his daily rate for multipitch routes is C$525 (£330) for a 1:1 guide to guest ratio, and C$650 (£410) for 1:2 (so £205 per person). Well worth it for a climbing legend
In the OP's case, I think once you start equating cost to a particular route, it can seem expensive, i.e. "£200 to climb Tower Ridge", but if you think about it in terms of "£200 to gain the skills to climb any route without a guide", it seems much more reasonable. In that respect, an instructional course will possibly be of far greater worth than a day's guiding.
Agreed. I don't want to influence the OP's choice of UK guide, so if I use the example of Canadian guide, Barry Blanchard, his daily rate for multipitch routes is C$525 (£330) for a 1:1 guide to guest ratio, and C$650 (£410) for 1:2 (so £205 per person). Well worth it for a climbing legend
In the OP's case, I think once you start equating cost to a particular route, it can seem expensive, i.e. "£200 to climb Tower Ridge", but if you think about it in terms of "£200 to gain the skills to climb any route without a guide", it seems much more reasonable. In that respect, an instructional course will possibly be of far greater worth than a day's guiding.
In reply to Ross McGibbon:
Aye I see how you broke it down and it makes sense. There is a bit of competion amonst the guides <I'd imagine> around Fort William and nobody has any money at the moment which isn't helping! I've only ever had a guide once, was in N Devon for a family week and had no gear with me and no partner but wanted to climb at Baggy while I was down there. Got a great guy for a day from a climbing wall and it cost 90 Quid. worth it though.
I personally think that the OP would do well to make Tower Ridge his goal for the next year or so. He has climbed grade II according to his profile so perhaps a few trips up this summer and learn the Ben from some easy routes, tower ridge in summer, the CMD, Ledge route, Castle ridge etc and get to know the way off. Then building up his winter skills next season and hooking up with a more experienced climber Tower Ridge in winter is a real goal. March or April 2012 would give the OP plenty of time to prepare.
TR was kind to me when I did it in winter but it can of course turn serious very quickly.
Aye I see how you broke it down and it makes sense. There is a bit of competion amonst the guides <I'd imagine> around Fort William and nobody has any money at the moment which isn't helping! I've only ever had a guide once, was in N Devon for a family week and had no gear with me and no partner but wanted to climb at Baggy while I was down there. Got a great guy for a day from a climbing wall and it cost 90 Quid. worth it though.
I personally think that the OP would do well to make Tower Ridge his goal for the next year or so. He has climbed grade II according to his profile so perhaps a few trips up this summer and learn the Ben from some easy routes, tower ridge in summer, the CMD, Ledge route, Castle ridge etc and get to know the way off. Then building up his winter skills next season and hooking up with a more experienced climber Tower Ridge in winter is a real goal. March or April 2012 would give the OP plenty of time to prepare.
TR was kind to me when I did it in winter but it can of course turn serious very quickly.
In reply to climber2011:
Recently paid £360 for 2 people with a guide for a weekend, not for tower ridge like as we went to Sneachda but that seems the going rate around Aviemore.
Recently paid £360 for 2 people with a guide for a weekend, not for tower ridge like as we went to Sneachda but that seems the going rate around Aviemore.
In reply to blanchie14c: It's a good point.
We charge fairly much the going rate but have very little competition.
The one thing I am wary about though, is this is my second job. So I think it's off for me to go and charge £60 a day, undercut everyone, get my weekends booked up and a nice but of pocket money, when those working full time have to charge a higher rate because they have to make enough to pay their way. I do think there is an ethical component to what you charge.
We charge fairly much the going rate but have very little competition.
The one thing I am wary about though, is this is my second job. So I think it's off for me to go and charge £60 a day, undercut everyone, get my weekends booked up and a nice but of pocket money, when those working full time have to charge a higher rate because they have to make enough to pay their way. I do think there is an ethical component to what you charge.
In reply to IainRUK:
Of course you are correct. A lot of trades <guides inc> the customer is paying for what you know, not what you nessesarly do. Sometimes this fact is lost a little bit*. I'm obviously out of touch with guiding fees but you are quite right about undercutting. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for eh
*Had a mate who gave a right old moan about his renult that cost him £125 for '20 mins work'. I explained to him the the garage had to buy the software for the diagnostic computer plus the break out leads and those cost a small fortune. Of that 125, half of it prob when into paying back the initial investment, out of whats left the garage has to still cover wages, electric, insurance, advertising, building lease, rubbish removal etc etc and thats before profit. Business is hard these days, hats off to anyone who has the bottle to dive in.
Of course you are correct. A lot of trades <guides inc> the customer is paying for what you know, not what you nessesarly do. Sometimes this fact is lost a little bit*. I'm obviously out of touch with guiding fees but you are quite right about undercutting. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for eh
*Had a mate who gave a right old moan about his renult that cost him £125 for '20 mins work'. I explained to him the the garage had to buy the software for the diagnostic computer plus the break out leads and those cost a small fortune. Of that 125, half of it prob when into paying back the initial investment, out of whats left the garage has to still cover wages, electric, insurance, advertising, building lease, rubbish removal etc etc and thats before profit. Business is hard these days, hats off to anyone who has the bottle to dive in.
In reply to blanchie14c:
> (In reply to Ross McGibbon)
> Aye I see how you broke it down and it makes sense.
Am I on the right forum? Shouldn't we be arguing and having a flame war? We're not supposed to agree on net forums > Aye I see how you broke it down and it makes sense.
> the OP would do well to learn the Ben from some easy routes,
I agree! In reply to climber2011: so none of you want to do tower ridge then,lol??
In reply to climber2011:
I'd take the advice and do an easier route on The Ben. Ledge Route is excellent at grade II. Castle Ridge has only one tricky bit and that is really more rock climbing, the rest is grade II. Then move on to Tower Ridge.
I'd take the advice and do an easier route on The Ben. Ledge Route is excellent at grade II. Castle Ridge has only one tricky bit and that is really more rock climbing, the rest is grade II. Then move on to Tower Ridge.
In reply to IainRUK: Its pretty well defined by MLTUK:
"Summer Mountain Leader: This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required to lead walking groups in summer conditions in the mountains."
Training and assessment for leading parties on grade 1 scrambles is not part of the ML syllabus. You are trained and assessed for security on steep ground to ensure you have the skills necessary to use a rope in an unplanned situation or for confidence within the context of hillwalking. The assessment includes testing a candidates ability to operate in terrain outside of the ML remit because as a Mountain Leader it is concievable that you could find yourself in the wrong place by mistake, unlike a WGL who works in more defined areas. The emphasis being that it is an award for leading walking parties in the mountains where the purpose of the activity is a walk not a climb or scramble.
"Summer Mountain Leader: This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required to lead walking groups in summer conditions in the mountains."
Training and assessment for leading parties on grade 1 scrambles is not part of the ML syllabus. You are trained and assessed for security on steep ground to ensure you have the skills necessary to use a rope in an unplanned situation or for confidence within the context of hillwalking. The assessment includes testing a candidates ability to operate in terrain outside of the ML remit because as a Mountain Leader it is concievable that you could find yourself in the wrong place by mistake, unlike a WGL who works in more defined areas. The emphasis being that it is an award for leading walking parties in the mountains where the purpose of the activity is a walk not a climb or scramble.
In reply to Rob Johnson: Has that changed recently? I think 90% of summer ML holders would take people out on routes like Crib y Ddysgl.
We regularly take suitable clients along Crib Goch in suitable conditions and feel comfortable doing so. I thought it used to just mention 'no planned use of rope'.
Look at Nantlle Ridge, technically a grade 1, and if you can't take a client for a run/walk along that with an ML it's a bit of a joke.
Personally I do think grade 1 scrambles fall within the remit.
We regularly take suitable clients along Crib Goch in suitable conditions and feel comfortable doing so. I thought it used to just mention 'no planned use of rope'.
Look at Nantlle Ridge, technically a grade 1, and if you can't take a client for a run/walk along that with an ML it's a bit of a joke.
Personally I do think grade 1 scrambles fall within the remit.
In reply to Rob Johnson: "2.1 The ML Scheme offers the opportunity to gain technical competence in leading walkers in the hills and mountains. It does not provide a rock climbing qualification, nor does it cover the skills required for the planned use of the rope. "
I think you cherry picked there a bit..
For me the fact that it specifically lists rock climbing as outside the remit of the award, and not scrambling suggests a grey area.
And I think that grey area depends on the skills of the ML and their clients. So as I say I think relatively straight forwards grade 1 terrain is fine for me to take people on.
It'd be good to have clarity.
I don't think the remit of the reward is the be all and end all though. We will take people out in winter conditions, there are few runners as experienced in such conditions and we know the hills to pick safe routes. There is room for experience alongside the awards, but I do accept that when operating outside of the award you do have to 100% careful because there will be someone out to say you were wrong should the shit hit.
e.g. This is a day my wife took a couple out, undoubtably winter, but we knew the hills well, knew the routes were safe, knew no winter equipment (ice axe) etc was needed, and felt comfortable with the conditions.
http://sarzmountainrun.blogspot.com/2010/02/paul-and-suzs-moel-eilio-run.ht...
For me the main thing is am I comfortable with what I am doing and could I defend my actions.
I think you cherry picked there a bit..
For me the fact that it specifically lists rock climbing as outside the remit of the award, and not scrambling suggests a grey area.
And I think that grey area depends on the skills of the ML and their clients. So as I say I think relatively straight forwards grade 1 terrain is fine for me to take people on.
It'd be good to have clarity.
I don't think the remit of the reward is the be all and end all though. We will take people out in winter conditions, there are few runners as experienced in such conditions and we know the hills to pick safe routes. There is room for experience alongside the awards, but I do accept that when operating outside of the award you do have to 100% careful because there will be someone out to say you were wrong should the shit hit.
e.g. This is a day my wife took a couple out, undoubtably winter, but we knew the hills well, knew the routes were safe, knew no winter equipment (ice axe) etc was needed, and felt comfortable with the conditions.
http://sarzmountainrun.blogspot.com/2010/02/paul-and-suzs-moel-eilio-run.ht...
For me the main thing is am I comfortable with what I am doing and could I defend my actions.
In reply to IainRUK: No it hasn't changed but it is a commonly held misconception because you go onto graded ground on training and assessment.
If a summer ML operates on graded ground they are operating out of the remit of their qualification and then relying on additional personal experience over and above the award that they hold.
I am sure you do a very good job but its not rare to see those that don't!
Rob
If a summer ML operates on graded ground they are operating out of the remit of their qualification and then relying on additional personal experience over and above the award that they hold.
I am sure you do a very good job but its not rare to see those that don't!
Rob
In reply to Rob Johnson: Fair enough, I seem to get different answers everytime to that one though...
I'm currently 1 armed and could be for 10 weeks + so won't be doing much work in the mean time...
I'm currently 1 armed and could be for 10 weeks + so won't be doing much work in the mean time...
In reply to IainRUK: No cherry picking just cut and paste from here: http://www.mltuk.org/downloads/National_Guidelines_2009_internet_colour.pdf -page 21
"Mountain Leader Award - ML
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required to lead walking groups in summer conditions in the mountains."
"Mountain Leader Award - ML
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required to lead walking groups in summer conditions in the mountains."
In reply to IainRUK: Oh dear, I hope it grows back soon!
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