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Last night’s Peak Area Climbers meeting was attended by nearly sixty people! Lively discussion ensued on –
1. The possible bouldering ban at Stanage due to Ring Ouzel – we’re going to resist a ban while engaging with the bird folk and trying to arrive at some kind of compromise.
2. Belay stakes at Windgather – Wide range of opinion from those who couldn’t see any problem with them (we’ve got them all over the place anyway), to those who felt encouraging top-roping would hasten the demise of an already worn crag. The whole issue will be looked at in greater detail by local access reps and outdoor providers.
3. Park and Ride – Looks like we might reach a compromise in the North Lees estate area. Those who park where there is no existing pay and display will be encouraged to make a voluntary donation. However, P & D will probably become the norm in the rest of the Peak Park. We are trying to encourage them to produce a reasonably priced season ticket that will cover all Peak District car parks.
4. Chipping at Newstones and Ramshaw – whether it’s chipping or wire-brushing, it’s got to stop. Pictures produced by local access volunteer Dave Bishop were quite frankly horrifying. It seems only peer pressure will stop this hideous desecration of the rock.
5. Peak Bolt Fund – this was misconstrued by some as being an attempt to form a bolt fund for the equipping of new routes. What is actually required is some means of re-imbursing people like Ian Dunn and Gary Gibson who have given time and materials to replace ageing tat and shiny bolts with more surreptitious staples in Cheedale. This is in response to Derbyshire Wildlife Trust who threatened to ban climbing if more wasn’t done to clean up the cliffs.
And after all that we were royally entertained by Andy Kirkpatrick. If you get a chance, see his slide show – it’s brilliant. Thanks again to all those who made the effort to turn up.
1. The possible bouldering ban at Stanage due to Ring Ouzel – we’re going to resist a ban while engaging with the bird folk and trying to arrive at some kind of compromise.
2. Belay stakes at Windgather – Wide range of opinion from those who couldn’t see any problem with them (we’ve got them all over the place anyway), to those who felt encouraging top-roping would hasten the demise of an already worn crag. The whole issue will be looked at in greater detail by local access reps and outdoor providers.
3. Park and Ride – Looks like we might reach a compromise in the North Lees estate area. Those who park where there is no existing pay and display will be encouraged to make a voluntary donation. However, P & D will probably become the norm in the rest of the Peak Park. We are trying to encourage them to produce a reasonably priced season ticket that will cover all Peak District car parks.
4. Chipping at Newstones and Ramshaw – whether it’s chipping or wire-brushing, it’s got to stop. Pictures produced by local access volunteer Dave Bishop were quite frankly horrifying. It seems only peer pressure will stop this hideous desecration of the rock.
5. Peak Bolt Fund – this was misconstrued by some as being an attempt to form a bolt fund for the equipping of new routes. What is actually required is some means of re-imbursing people like Ian Dunn and Gary Gibson who have given time and materials to replace ageing tat and shiny bolts with more surreptitious staples in Cheedale. This is in response to Derbyshire Wildlife Trust who threatened to ban climbing if more wasn’t done to clean up the cliffs.
And after all that we were royally entertained by Andy Kirkpatrick. If you get a chance, see his slide show – it’s brilliant. Thanks again to all those who made the effort to turn up.
In reply to John Horscroft: Nice to see I was wrong about attendance and mis construed the bolt fund, however I think his is a slippery slope to whole sale bolting.
As for the ring ouzels, nothing a short walk with a .410 wouldn't solve if the twitchers are too bolshie.
As for the ring ouzels, nothing a short walk with a .410 wouldn't solve if the twitchers are too bolshie.
In reply to Sloper:
And thanks to John for posting results of this meeting for those of us unable to attend.
And thanks to John for posting results of this meeting for those of us unable to attend.
In reply to John Horscroft:
2) What about those who think that there are already perfectly sevicable belays at the top? Most use of stakes is in old quarries where the belays are non-existant or very friable. The chopped bolts at Wingather were all near perfectly servicable belay positions. If there are not enough positions for three independant 2 point belays for top-rope/ abseil antics they should use another place on the crag where there are (or better still another crag). I do not see why there should be a compromise here as next there will be pressure on birchens then......
4) The problem is either due directly to or seriously affected by wire brushes. If we continue to allow their use, most bouldering areas will all be like that in 10 years time (erosion in the last 10 years has increased significantly) my personal view is to completely ban ALL use of wire brushes and only allow soft bristle brushes/tooth brushes. Most people I see using wire brushes are only using them because their ambition for a problem exceeds their talent, on chalked holds with no lichen. A lot of the culprits are in their teens and when challenged gently, state such and such a prominant climber uses them, so do we.
BTW I wish I'd gone to the meeting now, not one 'climber' who came to our pub meet last night is prepared to climb from lunch-time on such an excellent autumn day.
2) What about those who think that there are already perfectly sevicable belays at the top? Most use of stakes is in old quarries where the belays are non-existant or very friable. The chopped bolts at Wingather were all near perfectly servicable belay positions. If there are not enough positions for three independant 2 point belays for top-rope/ abseil antics they should use another place on the crag where there are (or better still another crag). I do not see why there should be a compromise here as next there will be pressure on birchens then......
4) The problem is either due directly to or seriously affected by wire brushes. If we continue to allow their use, most bouldering areas will all be like that in 10 years time (erosion in the last 10 years has increased significantly) my personal view is to completely ban ALL use of wire brushes and only allow soft bristle brushes/tooth brushes. Most people I see using wire brushes are only using them because their ambition for a problem exceeds their talent, on chalked holds with no lichen. A lot of the culprits are in their teens and when challenged gently, state such and such a prominant climber uses them, so do we.
BTW I wish I'd gone to the meeting now, not one 'climber' who came to our pub meet last night is prepared to climb from lunch-time on such an excellent autumn day.
In reply to Sloper:
The bolt fund is not a 'slippery slope to wholesale bolting'. This is what was said 15 years ago when the first Cheedale bolts went in. There have been bolt funds in the past too, and they were not misused.
The bolt fund is not a 'slippery slope to wholesale bolting'. This is what was said 15 years ago when the first Cheedale bolts went in. There have been bolt funds in the past too, and they were not misused.
In reply to Ru:
'bolt fund' is a misconception in this context.
What Gary Gibson wants is some reimbursement from the BMC for work that he undertook at the request of the BMC (to ensure access was maintained to certain areas).
I think he has a point.
> The bolt fund is not a 'slippery slope to wholesale bolting'.
'bolt fund' is a misconception in this context.
What Gary Gibson wants is some reimbursement from the BMC for work that he undertook at the request of the BMC (to ensure access was maintained to certain areas).
I think he has a point.
In reply to Sloper:
For Gods` sake man are you serious? You can`t shoot them!
Ring there necks instead, then they`d be Rung Ring Ouzels.
No fu****g way to a ban,not this time.
For Gods` sake man are you serious? You can`t shoot them!
Ring there necks instead, then they`d be Rung Ring Ouzels.
No fu****g way to a ban,not this time.
In reply to John Horscroft:
I would like to echo the sentiment others have expressed and thank everyone who takes the time and trouble to attend these meetings on behalf of all of us.
In reply to Steve: Chopped bolts at Windgather?? Tell me more. Before I firebomb the local outdoor centre. Or should that read, 'and then I shall firebomb the nearest outdoor centre?'.
In reply to someone else: As far as I am concerned we already have an agreement that wirebrushes are not to be used either on gritstone or any other rock, EVER, under any circumstances. I was truly shocked for example to see brendontendon on here a little while ago trotting out the stuff about how he only carries a little one and only uses it infrequently, just when "necessary" (read "convenient"). The mind boggles at the idea of using a wirebrush on a piece of gritstone. Throw it away, mate.
In reply to Kipper: I agree that reimbursing GG does not = a bolt fund. On the other hand since I believe GG placed a good deal of the unsightly tat that caused the problem, it is less clear to me that he deserves to be reimbursed. Since a good many of the difficulties presently overshadowing the BMC guidebook production were, or so one hears, caused by GG's childish threat to sue them for libel and the BMC's equally silly decision not to tell him to get stuffed, I can't (from the vast ocean of ignorance about the relevant events in which I swim, admittedly) feel a lot of sympathy for him about this.
I would like to echo the sentiment others have expressed and thank everyone who takes the time and trouble to attend these meetings on behalf of all of us.
In reply to Steve: Chopped bolts at Windgather?? Tell me more. Before I firebomb the local outdoor centre. Or should that read, 'and then I shall firebomb the nearest outdoor centre?'.
In reply to someone else: As far as I am concerned we already have an agreement that wirebrushes are not to be used either on gritstone or any other rock, EVER, under any circumstances. I was truly shocked for example to see brendontendon on here a little while ago trotting out the stuff about how he only carries a little one and only uses it infrequently, just when "necessary" (read "convenient"). The mind boggles at the idea of using a wirebrush on a piece of gritstone. Throw it away, mate.
In reply to Kipper: I agree that reimbursing GG does not = a bolt fund. On the other hand since I believe GG placed a good deal of the unsightly tat that caused the problem, it is less clear to me that he deserves to be reimbursed. Since a good many of the difficulties presently overshadowing the BMC guidebook production were, or so one hears, caused by GG's childish threat to sue them for libel and the BMC's equally silly decision not to tell him to get stuffed, I can't (from the vast ocean of ignorance about the relevant events in which I swim, admittedly) feel a lot of sympathy for him about this.
In reply to John Horscroft:
'Peak Bolt Fund - this was miscon-strued by some as being an attempt to form a bolt fund for the equipping of new routes.' The vast majority of climbers, who are against bolting of any kind in the UK, will never know - will they?
'Somebody' actually placed bolts at Windgather... The sad b*******
Dennis M
'Peak Bolt Fund - this was miscon-strued by some as being an attempt to form a bolt fund for the equipping of new routes.' The vast majority of climbers, who are against bolting of any kind in the UK, will never know - will they?
'Somebody' actually placed bolts at Windgather... The sad b*******
Dennis M
In reply to Dennis: I looked into why they want to place belay stakes at Windgather and found it was because the existing placements are being knackered with continual placements. apparently the patina of the rock has gone and the crag is not called windgather for nothing. If you would rather see the belay spots dissappear then say no to stakes or take the pragmatic approach, it is a beginners crag in the main and has been used by Whitehall for about 50 years without much trouble till now.
You have lower off points on some crags to preserve the top from erosion, this is just the same but not on a hard route crag.
You have lower off points on some crags to preserve the top from erosion, this is just the same but not on a hard route crag.
In reply to sutty:
Quite right,can`t see what the fuss is about.Just because they would be allowed at Windgather doesn`t mean they`d be sprouting up all over the place.
Quite right,can`t see what the fuss is about.Just because they would be allowed at Windgather doesn`t mean they`d be sprouting up all over the place.
In reply to John Cox: Re; wirebrushes on grit.
I'd agree John - having seen the 'cleaning' that happened on Rylstone last year. I can't remember exactly where it was, but something had been brushed (fair enough to get the lichen off) so hard that pebbles had been knocked out leaving quite substantial pockets.
What's the best thing to use to get lichen off but not damage the 'skin'?
I'd agree John - having seen the 'cleaning' that happened on Rylstone last year. I can't remember exactly where it was, but something had been brushed (fair enough to get the lichen off) so hard that pebbles had been knocked out leaving quite substantial pockets.
What's the best thing to use to get lichen off but not damage the 'skin'?
In reply to andy:
A toothbrush. Anyway I don't accept the premise that removing lichen is necessary. I'd sooner see lichen than vandalism of this kind.
A toothbrush. Anyway I don't accept the premise that removing lichen is necessary. I'd sooner see lichen than vandalism of this kind.
In reply to andy:
The best way to remove lichen is to get lots of polluting industry back to the towns and cities that surround the peak. It's the nice clean, acid rain free environment that is encouraging the green stuff to come back.
Failing that if it has to be removed then whats wrong with a relatively soft non-metallic bristle brush like you use on your teeth?
The best way to remove lichen is to get lots of polluting industry back to the towns and cities that surround the peak. It's the nice clean, acid rain free environment that is encouraging the green stuff to come back.
Failing that if it has to be removed then whats wrong with a relatively soft non-metallic bristle brush like you use on your teeth?
Acid? Dont get upset. ITS ONLY A JOKE. Do not use acid. Seriously though hasnt Millstone got greener since they stopped lorries going through Hathersage, or something.
In reply to Chris Fryer:
I wasn't for a minute suggesting that any one wander around splashing acid over the surface of the rocks, how the hell did you get that idea?
Lichen like nice clean environments to live in and even minor levels of pollution and acid rain will have a detrimental effect on them. As the environment has cleaned up in recent years lichen has become more prolific.
I wasn't for a minute suggesting that any one wander around splashing acid over the surface of the rocks, how the hell did you get that idea?
Lichen like nice clean environments to live in and even minor levels of pollution and acid rain will have a detrimental effect on them. As the environment has cleaned up in recent years lichen has become more prolific.
In reply to Horse: I know you werent - i was as a joke.
In reply to Chris Fryer:
Bloody irresponsible
Where you climbing this weekend?
Bloody irresponsible
Where you climbing this weekend?
In reply to Horse: Croyde / Baggy - slab central.
General comment about the issue of GG and the 'bolt fund.'
This is much less of an issue than it might sound on the surface. Basically if we want to keep climbing in Chee Dale, then someone has to replace old fixed gear and lower-offs otherwise DWT will ban it. Gary, and Squwak, have put a lot of effort into replacing this gear and are asking the BMC for some financial recompense.
To illustrate how uncontroversial this is, we actually all witnessed Ken Wilson writing Gary a cheque and giving it to him during the meeting.
Alan
Alan
This is much less of an issue than it might sound on the surface. Basically if we want to keep climbing in Chee Dale, then someone has to replace old fixed gear and lower-offs otherwise DWT will ban it. Gary, and Squwak, have put a lot of effort into replacing this gear and are asking the BMC for some financial recompense.
To illustrate how uncontroversial this is, we actually all witnessed Ken Wilson writing Gary a cheque and giving it to him during the meeting.
Alan
Alan
In reply to Steve:
Your thoughts about Windgather were certainly echoed in the meeting. I tend to agree that it is a 'thin end of the wedge' situation.
As for wire brushes, spot on mate, ban the bloody things and string up those who dare to use them.
Your thoughts about Windgather were certainly echoed in the meeting. I tend to agree that it is a 'thin end of the wedge' situation.
As for wire brushes, spot on mate, ban the bloody things and string up those who dare to use them.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
It was a lovely thought Alan, but Ken didn't give Gary any money in the end, it was just gesture politics old boy!
It was a lovely thought Alan, but Ken didn't give Gary any money in the end, it was just gesture politics old boy!
In reply to sutty:
There are plenty of places in the peak used by groups where the belays are worn so whats next? Birchens?? The existing placements at Windgather are not knackered they are just not suitable for several multipoint belays in one place on one or two sections (with some of the best easy climbs). The groups would just have to use less popular sections for this.
If the crag has been climbed for 50 years by Whitehall and other outside groups, who placed all those belay bolts which were susequently chopped (although a fair while ago now)? Also since the crag is far from ideal for teaching good abseil practice (due to the many lips which encourage you to drop your feet) why do I still see groups all over classic routes just for that purpose. Finally worn crags get a lot more worn by beginners in big boots on top ropes than by paired climbers.
When you say 'apparently' have you been there recently. Ive climbed all but two routes in the last couple of months and have climbed most of the routes at least three times.
Windgather is a fantastic crag best left as it is. I would encourage people to try it as its one of the best short crags for the low grade leader anywhere, plus you can judge the belays for yourselves.
There are plenty of places in the peak used by groups where the belays are worn so whats next? Birchens?? The existing placements at Windgather are not knackered they are just not suitable for several multipoint belays in one place on one or two sections (with some of the best easy climbs). The groups would just have to use less popular sections for this.
If the crag has been climbed for 50 years by Whitehall and other outside groups, who placed all those belay bolts which were susequently chopped (although a fair while ago now)? Also since the crag is far from ideal for teaching good abseil practice (due to the many lips which encourage you to drop your feet) why do I still see groups all over classic routes just for that purpose. Finally worn crags get a lot more worn by beginners in big boots on top ropes than by paired climbers.
When you say 'apparently' have you been there recently. Ive climbed all but two routes in the last couple of months and have climbed most of the routes at least three times.
Windgather is a fantastic crag best left as it is. I would encourage people to try it as its one of the best short crags for the low grade leader anywhere, plus you can judge the belays for yourselves.
In reply to Steve: I have not been on Wingather for about 15 years so do not know the state of the belays etc, just what I read about it. I too learned to lead on that crag, it was a regular visit in my early years and at that time Whitehall used it for climbing with ONE ABSEIL SPOT used at the far left of the crag beyond any routes. Abseiling was not something that was taught very often as getting up the crag was deemed more important. It is only since these daft abseil clubs formed that people have got their cheap thrills from controlled abs.
Has anyone asked what the head of Whitehalls policy is on this? he may be working under a directive and his bosses may be the people to ask.
If you see people damaging routes tell them to bog off, the crag does still belong to the BMC doesn't it and if you are a member say GET OFF OUR LAND. Sorry, couldn't resist it.
Has anyone asked what the head of Whitehalls policy is on this? he may be working under a directive and his bosses may be the people to ask.
If you see people damaging routes tell them to bog off, the crag does still belong to the BMC doesn't it and if you are a member say GET OFF OUR LAND. Sorry, couldn't resist it.
In reply to John Horscroft:
Bloody hell! What a manipulative, devious politician that Wilson is!
Alan
Bloody hell! What a manipulative, devious politician that Wilson is!
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
'To illustrate how uncontrovercial this is...' Re: Ken Wilson writing out a cheque. Ken Wilson as long ago as 1979 stood behind me one evening, I would hasten to add: 'he was giving a slide show' and he was unashamed at having climbed 'Snake Dike' on Half Dome in Yosemite - bolts and all.
To this day, I am still not sure of Ken Wilson's - colours...
Dennis M.
'To illustrate how uncontrovercial this is...' Re: Ken Wilson writing out a cheque. Ken Wilson as long ago as 1979 stood behind me one evening, I would hasten to add: 'he was giving a slide show' and he was unashamed at having climbed 'Snake Dike' on Half Dome in Yosemite - bolts and all.
To this day, I am still not sure of Ken Wilson's - colours...
Dennis M.
In reply to Dennis:
Should someone who disapproves of bolts never clip them? I can't for the life of me see what difference this makes once the bolts are already in. I haven't done the route but I know it's sparsely bolted, and guess therefore that it was probably bolted on the lead, which is a different ballgame
In reply to JH/AJ
What was Ken up to then? Does he have a special rubber cheque book, or is Baton Wicks truly skint?
Should someone who disapproves of bolts never clip them? I can't for the life of me see what difference this makes once the bolts are already in. I haven't done the route but I know it's sparsely bolted, and guess therefore that it was probably bolted on the lead, which is a different ballgame
In reply to JH/AJ
What was Ken up to then? Does he have a special rubber cheque book, or is Baton Wicks truly skint?
In reply to bullybones:
There are now a number of bolts on the Hornli Ridge of the Matterhorn (and the Zmutt ridge) what they are doing there? I will never know (though in fact I do know) - I never clip them because they are not necessary.
Many of the bolts I come across on Spanish rock, I also do not clip when there are alternative placements. I am not happy about clipping some; having the choice because they should not be there - but they are. I wish they were not and cannot chop them because they are quite acceptable to the locals bolts being their preference.
When I did Snake Dike the rock had already been damaged with the insertion of bolts, bolts that were in a very dangerous condition and in fact, were probably useless in an emergency.
The whole situation has become far to confusing.
Dennis M.
There are now a number of bolts on the Hornli Ridge of the Matterhorn (and the Zmutt ridge) what they are doing there? I will never know (though in fact I do know) - I never clip them because they are not necessary.
Many of the bolts I come across on Spanish rock, I also do not clip when there are alternative placements. I am not happy about clipping some; having the choice because they should not be there - but they are. I wish they were not and cannot chop them because they are quite acceptable to the locals bolts being their preference.
When I did Snake Dike the rock had already been damaged with the insertion of bolts, bolts that were in a very dangerous condition and in fact, were probably useless in an emergency.
The whole situation has become far to confusing.
Dennis M.
In reply to Dennis: You are a contentious old fart like me aren't you? As we both know the bolts on the hornli are to get the guide and his client down safely.
Now then, we come to the nub of bolting. If you are leading a client up a bolted route like that and do not clip the bolts and you have an accident are you guilty of negligence?
The thin end of the wedge is leading to a sanitised hobby with the same risk as a fairground ride.
I think if you think back you have used pegs on some routes that were there for protection and only in later years have realised that you MAY have been able to do the move without them. Ones that come to mind are the one you used to approach the main pitch of shrike, it was there so use it for pro. It was not really needed, we were just not that pure in our ascents to say sod it.
Now then, we come to the nub of bolting. If you are leading a client up a bolted route like that and do not clip the bolts and you have an accident are you guilty of negligence?
The thin end of the wedge is leading to a sanitised hobby with the same risk as a fairground ride.
I think if you think back you have used pegs on some routes that were there for protection and only in later years have realised that you MAY have been able to do the move without them. Ones that come to mind are the one you used to approach the main pitch of shrike, it was there so use it for pro. It was not really needed, we were just not that pure in our ascents to say sod it.
In reply to sutty:
It is a confusing issue, but as I alluded to earlier, bolts placed on the lead are wholly different from ab-placed bolts or retrobolting. In Switzerland, where clearly the guides are up to no good, many bold climbers have been (for years) admirably putting up routes that have no other protection or belays other than bolts, and often they do this on the lead. These guys are seen as the purists, and much admired as carriers of the flame, while the fuddy duddy Swiss Alpine Club is scurrilously supporting the retrobolting of classic routes merely for filthy lucre. We, in the UK, don't have big crags that take no protection or belays, and it's ludicrous to pretend that our ethics pertain. Unless you have ropes 500 feet long, many routes on Handegg, Eldorado, or Half Dome couldn't exist. In yosemite there are lots of bolts from a bygone era, when aid bolting methods were well developed but free climbing was not. These bolts were never really designed to take leader falls, they were all the leaders had at the time.
This has been a confused but well-meaning public information broadcast on behalf of the just-back-from-the-pub party
It is a confusing issue, but as I alluded to earlier, bolts placed on the lead are wholly different from ab-placed bolts or retrobolting. In Switzerland, where clearly the guides are up to no good, many bold climbers have been (for years) admirably putting up routes that have no other protection or belays other than bolts, and often they do this on the lead. These guys are seen as the purists, and much admired as carriers of the flame, while the fuddy duddy Swiss Alpine Club is scurrilously supporting the retrobolting of classic routes merely for filthy lucre. We, in the UK, don't have big crags that take no protection or belays, and it's ludicrous to pretend that our ethics pertain. Unless you have ropes 500 feet long, many routes on Handegg, Eldorado, or Half Dome couldn't exist. In yosemite there are lots of bolts from a bygone era, when aid bolting methods were well developed but free climbing was not. These bolts were never really designed to take leader falls, they were all the leaders had at the time.
This has been a confused but well-meaning public information broadcast on behalf of the just-back-from-the-pub party
In reply to Dennis: To this day, I am still not sure of Ken Wilson's -colours...
Ye and it was K.W that introduced me to bolts, in Crags!
Stu
Ye and it was K.W that introduced me to bolts, in Crags!
Stu
In reply to sutty:
'If you are leading a client up a bolted route like that and do not clip the bolts and you have an accident are you guilty of negligence?'
The bolts that come mind on the Hornli Ridge are placed along side totally adiquate nut placements.
'You have used pegs on some routes that were there for protection..' You are correct but, only because I did not have the wealth of protection that I carry today. Certainly, I have only placed three pegs since rock-on-wire appeared.
A first ascent that I did with pitons for protection and some aid today, is totally bolted. I have been sorely tempted to de-bolt it - but what the hell...
Dennis M.
'If you are leading a client up a bolted route like that and do not clip the bolts and you have an accident are you guilty of negligence?'
The bolts that come mind on the Hornli Ridge are placed along side totally adiquate nut placements.
'You have used pegs on some routes that were there for protection..' You are correct but, only because I did not have the wealth of protection that I carry today. Certainly, I have only placed three pegs since rock-on-wire appeared.
A first ascent that I did with pitons for protection and some aid today, is totally bolted. I have been sorely tempted to de-bolt it - but what the hell...
Dennis M.
In reply to John Horscroft: Don't let outdoor centre's put stakes in at Windgather but its ok if any 'real' climber puts them in at a big butch crag. Eg in Pembroke, loads of places in the Peak such as Hobson Moor for one! and thousands of others around the UK. What about the fence at Pex Hill? Stakes well back from the crags edge are nothing but a benefit.
As for all these heros who think it will just encourage top roping well name me a hard unprotected grit route that hasn't been top roped first, even easy classics like Great Slab were top roped by the Rock and Ice. Who gives a toss if people top rope, its wire brushes and chipping that damage the rock. You can't just tell people who have never been climbing to start on the lead, Windgather is a perfect crag to introduce people to our sport and a few decent belays wouldn,t go amiss, not that I need them of course!!
Where are all these heros who don't want belays at the top of the crag I don't see them leading on sight. You more often than not see them seconding (top roping) or doing routes they have done hundreds of times before.
As for all these heros who think it will just encourage top roping well name me a hard unprotected grit route that hasn't been top roped first, even easy classics like Great Slab were top roped by the Rock and Ice. Who gives a toss if people top rope, its wire brushes and chipping that damage the rock. You can't just tell people who have never been climbing to start on the lead, Windgather is a perfect crag to introduce people to our sport and a few decent belays wouldn,t go amiss, not that I need them of course!!
Where are all these heros who don't want belays at the top of the crag I don't see them leading on sight. You more often than not see them seconding (top roping) or doing routes they have done hundreds of times before.
In reply to Squawk:
Love to agree with you squawk old mate, but the times are a changing. A significant number of people are only top-roping. It's not being done to teach anything, it's not done prior to a lead. It just polishes the rock and keeps us ordinary god-fearing leading folk off the routes. If you want to see the Peak end up like southern sandstone then fine, bang in as many stakes as you like. But stakes mean ropes over the edge being repeatedly weighted as people fall off. The top gets damaged, the holds get polished, climbing becomes a 'safe' sport. Well I say bollocks to that.
Love to agree with you squawk old mate, but the times are a changing. A significant number of people are only top-roping. It's not being done to teach anything, it's not done prior to a lead. It just polishes the rock and keeps us ordinary god-fearing leading folk off the routes. If you want to see the Peak end up like southern sandstone then fine, bang in as many stakes as you like. But stakes mean ropes over the edge being repeatedly weighted as people fall off. The top gets damaged, the holds get polished, climbing becomes a 'safe' sport. Well I say bollocks to that.
In reply to Squawk:
>Who gives a toss if people top rope<
I do. If you want to see me leading on sight, come and watch. Why, I on-sighted a severe today, and if this weather holds, I hope to do another next week.
Out of all the examples you could have picked of hard grit routes that were top-roped first, you pick what is probably, bearing in mind when it was done, the footwear used and the uncleaned state of the slab, the most impressive, and certainly one of the most famous, ONSIGHT first ascents in the history of gritstone climbing.
If this is the level of your ignorance about climbing history, I think we can afford to ignore your views about its future.
>Who gives a toss if people top rope<
I do. If you want to see me leading on sight, come and watch. Why, I on-sighted a severe today, and if this weather holds, I hope to do another next week.
Out of all the examples you could have picked of hard grit routes that were top-roped first, you pick what is probably, bearing in mind when it was done, the footwear used and the uncleaned state of the slab, the most impressive, and certainly one of the most famous, ONSIGHT first ascents in the history of gritstone climbing.
If this is the level of your ignorance about climbing history, I think we can afford to ignore your views about its future.
In reply to John Cox: Great Slab was top roped first. I have an eye witness account of it, as was just about every other cutting edge grit route. Ethics are not what climbing history books try to make us believe.
In reply to John Horscroft: You can't stop it it has been done since ropes were taken to the crag.
Grit will never be like southern sandstone its too hard!
Grit will never be like southern sandstone its too hard!
In reply to squawk:
Really, well you should have taken a wander along Burbage North yesterday. Bloody things all over the place.
Keep up the fight John H, anything that can be done to minimise or stop the practice of TR ascents gets my full backing. No surprises there then.
Really, well you should have taken a wander along Burbage North yesterday. Bloody things all over the place.
Keep up the fight John H, anything that can be done to minimise or stop the practice of TR ascents gets my full backing. No surprises there then.
In reply to Steve:
With regard to wire brushes:
"A lot of the culprits are in their teens"
Maybe so, can't say I've seen much evidence of this myself. In fact, the ONLY incidence I've seen of someone using a wire bruch on grit was courtesy of a very famous climber, an old specimen whose climbing history stretched back to the early 1960's.
With regard to wire brushes:
"A lot of the culprits are in their teens"
Maybe so, can't say I've seen much evidence of this myself. In fact, the ONLY incidence I've seen of someone using a wire bruch on grit was courtesy of a very famous climber, an old specimen whose climbing history stretched back to the early 1960's.
In reply to Squawk:
Have you ever been to Windgather?
There is no problem with the belays other than the fact that they are not always immediately obvious and are a little worn. They are already OK for leading or top-roping. The only reason I can see for Stakes is the requirement for doubled up multi point belays (SPSA style) required for group abseils or lined up top ropes. IMHO that is not a good enough reason since there are many other grit crags with the same problem and plenty of other places (often in a different place on the same crag) where the belays are good enough for the multiple belays required for group work.
The use of stakes on crags (mainly sea cliffs and quarries) where there is nothing else available is perfectly sensible. As a regular climber at the crag I am objecting to stakes at Windgather (that is all)
Your top-roping rant is uncalled for and irrelevant to the topic.
Have you ever been to Windgather?
There is no problem with the belays other than the fact that they are not always immediately obvious and are a little worn. They are already OK for leading or top-roping. The only reason I can see for Stakes is the requirement for doubled up multi point belays (SPSA style) required for group abseils or lined up top ropes. IMHO that is not a good enough reason since there are many other grit crags with the same problem and plenty of other places (often in a different place on the same crag) where the belays are good enough for the multiple belays required for group work.
The use of stakes on crags (mainly sea cliffs and quarries) where there is nothing else available is perfectly sensible. As a regular climber at the crag I am objecting to stakes at Windgather (that is all)
Your top-roping rant is uncalled for and irrelevant to the topic.
In reply to squawk:
If your eye-witness wants to speak up and tell us what he's got to say, let's hear it. If all he wants to do is chunter to his mates, I'm not interested. I've heard all this 'Oh, the Rock and Ice used to cheat all the time, you know', bollocks before.
I know Wilf White had top-roped it before, but until I hear your chap's version I'm going to stick with the Froggatt Guide and Joe in The Hard Years, both of whom reckon it was on-sight.
If your eye-witness wants to speak up and tell us what he's got to say, let's hear it. If all he wants to do is chunter to his mates, I'm not interested. I've heard all this 'Oh, the Rock and Ice used to cheat all the time, you know', bollocks before.
I know Wilf White had top-roped it before, but until I hear your chap's version I'm going to stick with the Froggatt Guide and Joe in The Hard Years, both of whom reckon it was on-sight.
In reply to Squawk:
You're a head the ball, mate. Mass toproping knackers the crag. The hardest route at Windgather is E1, so why does anybody need to toprope anything? And if they want to abseil, what's wrong with the quarry up the road?
You're a head the ball, mate. Mass toproping knackers the crag. The hardest route at Windgather is E1, so why does anybody need to toprope anything? And if they want to abseil, what's wrong with the quarry up the road?
In reply to andy flint: You assumed I was talking about the birds? I meant shoot the twitches, the whippets and lurchers will deal with the ring ouzels, must preserve traditional sports old man.
In reply to John: All the 'experienced' elder statesmen of the climbing scene @ the rock talk picini had nice big wire brushes some with metal scrapers, why did't i comment go balastic or otherwise shove them where they belonged? Who knows.
As for reimbursing Gary Gibson Squak or anyone one else, bollocks. Who forced them to bolt the routes and then climb them. No one.
If this goes ahead will we have a Ron Hill fund to reimburse Ronf Fawcett for the tracksters he must have donated to the cause?
As soon as the BMC directly support bolting it legitmises the pplacing of bolts and opens a whole can of worms with regard liability.
Strip all the unsightly tat from the limestone crags and leave climbers with the choice.
If people want to bolt fine, let them do it on the accepted sport crags at their own expense. otherwise let them climb the routes on natural gear.
If they don't want to do either let them get their exercise at a climbing wall.
As for reimbursing Gary Gibson Squak or anyone one else, bollocks. Who forced them to bolt the routes and then climb them. No one.
If this goes ahead will we have a Ron Hill fund to reimburse Ronf Fawcett for the tracksters he must have donated to the cause?
As soon as the BMC directly support bolting it legitmises the pplacing of bolts and opens a whole can of worms with regard liability.
Strip all the unsightly tat from the limestone crags and leave climbers with the choice.
If people want to bolt fine, let them do it on the accepted sport crags at their own expense. otherwise let them climb the routes on natural gear.
If they don't want to do either let them get their exercise at a climbing wall.
In reply to Sloper:
"All the 'experienced' elder statesmen of the climbing scene @ the rock talk picini had nice big wire brushes some with metal scrapers, why did't i comment go balastic or otherwise shove them where they belonged? Who knows"
Eh??
"All the 'experienced' elder statesmen of the climbing scene @ the rock talk picini had nice big wire brushes some with metal scrapers, why did't i comment go balastic or otherwise shove them where they belonged? Who knows"
Eh??
In reply to Steve: o.k. stop old gits with brushes who should know better stop kept quiet and walked off. stop not just younger generation stop cheating bastards stop stop stop
In reply to bullybones:
Do you ever top rope routes that are above your lead grade (Trad E4)? If so, what do you deem as acceptably hard to warrant a TR? 1, 2 grades harder?
The majority of climbers out there do not climb in the E grades. So for a climber leading VD, for example, 2 grades harder would be what? VS? Thats well below E1 and in the range of a number of the routes at Windgather.
Or is top roping only acceptable for the better climbers, pushing their grades on the "harder" routes?
Do you ever top rope routes that are above your lead grade (Trad E4)? If so, what do you deem as acceptably hard to warrant a TR? 1, 2 grades harder?
The majority of climbers out there do not climb in the E grades. So for a climber leading VD, for example, 2 grades harder would be what? VS? Thats well below E1 and in the range of a number of the routes at Windgather.
Or is top roping only acceptable for the better climbers, pushing their grades on the "harder" routes?
In reply to Sloper:
I really could not understand what you said. If you re-read it you've got to admit its bad, even for someone with your reputation for 'spelling'.
I know its not just teenagers; but what saddened me when I questioned a group (of teenagers) using a wire brush on Millwheel Wall (which didnt need brushing at the time) they justified it by saying that's what the top climbers do that they've seen. If you wire brush grit, it erodes...some grit more so than others. Brushes should be limited to soft bristle and then used only sparingly.
I really could not understand what you said. If you re-read it you've got to admit its bad, even for someone with your reputation for 'spelling'.
I know its not just teenagers; but what saddened me when I questioned a group (of teenagers) using a wire brush on Millwheel Wall (which didnt need brushing at the time) they justified it by saying that's what the top climbers do that they've seen. If you wire brush grit, it erodes...some grit more so than others. Brushes should be limited to soft bristle and then used only sparingly.
In reply to Grover: Well said!
You can top rope with a belayer at the top, this way you dont erode the rock!
We seem to have some negative people on here, I hope no one see's them clipping bolts and top ropeing.
Stu
You can top rope with a belayer at the top, this way you dont erode the rock!
We seem to have some negative people on here, I hope no one see's them clipping bolts and top ropeing.
Stu
In reply to Steve:
Excellent last couple of posts. The reason the so called elite or those who seek to justify dubious practices on the basis of "well its too hard otherwise" should realise that they set an example that others will follow without the twisted interpretation of the elite. It is quite simply hypocracy to pretend it is OK to do one thing and then say it isn't to someone else. Solution don't brush and don't top rope, why is it so difficult?
Excellent last couple of posts. The reason the so called elite or those who seek to justify dubious practices on the basis of "well its too hard otherwise" should realise that they set an example that others will follow without the twisted interpretation of the elite. It is quite simply hypocracy to pretend it is OK to do one thing and then say it isn't to someone else. Solution don't brush and don't top rope, why is it so difficult?
In reply to Grover:
>Or is top roping only acceptable for the better climbers, pushing their grades on the "harder" routes?<
The point is not whether they're harder but whether they're safer. I don't have anything against weaker climbers top-roping routes that are genuinely dangerous, provided they honestly intend to lead them afterwards. So if a VDiff leader wants to headpoint Sunset Slab, go for it. But that's not what happens, is it? You can shout all you want about elitism, but the fact is that top climbers who top-rope routes first generally do put it on the line and lead the route sooner or later. VS leaders generally don't, they just pedal away on, say, Chalkstorm or Downhill Racer, and then go back to their safe routes. In my opinion, that's the crucial difference.
And to all of you who think climbing's a wonderful free-spirited pursuit and everyone should be free to do what they like as long as they don't harm the rock, and so forth, let me quote that well-known pillar of the establishment and fascist authoritarian Paul Pritchard on this subject, 'There's gotta be rules'.
>Or is top roping only acceptable for the better climbers, pushing their grades on the "harder" routes?<
The point is not whether they're harder but whether they're safer. I don't have anything against weaker climbers top-roping routes that are genuinely dangerous, provided they honestly intend to lead them afterwards. So if a VDiff leader wants to headpoint Sunset Slab, go for it. But that's not what happens, is it? You can shout all you want about elitism, but the fact is that top climbers who top-rope routes first generally do put it on the line and lead the route sooner or later. VS leaders generally don't, they just pedal away on, say, Chalkstorm or Downhill Racer, and then go back to their safe routes. In my opinion, that's the crucial difference.
And to all of you who think climbing's a wonderful free-spirited pursuit and everyone should be free to do what they like as long as they don't harm the rock, and so forth, let me quote that well-known pillar of the establishment and fascist authoritarian Paul Pritchard on this subject, 'There's gotta be rules'.
In reply to John Cox: Whats with this toproping? I have never seen anyone top roping White slab on cloggy so why do it on grit? If you want a top rope find a leader to do it first otherwise sod off. That applies to those numpties who want to do the high E grade routes too, get the person who did the first ascent to lead it again so you can show your inferiority.
In reply to Grover:
Sure it's OK to toprope the odd route, but facilitation of mass toproping (for commercial gain) has to bad for a) the crag and b) the sport, because it's not really climbing it's just farting about.
Wingather's my local crag, and it gets enough hammer from guided parties as it is. Bollocks to debate - if you put stakes in they'd better have your address on so I know where to send them when I come and take 'em out...
Sure it's OK to toprope the odd route, but facilitation of mass toproping (for commercial gain) has to bad for a) the crag and b) the sport, because it's not really climbing it's just farting about.
Wingather's my local crag, and it gets enough hammer from guided parties as it is. Bollocks to debate - if you put stakes in they'd better have your address on so I know where to send them when I come and take 'em out...
In reply to bullybones:
>Bollocks to debate - if you put stakes in they'd better have your address on so I know where to send them when I come and take 'em out... <
Rock on, sir! Well said.
>Bollocks to debate - if you put stakes in they'd better have your address on so I know where to send them when I come and take 'em out... <
Rock on, sir! Well said.
In reply to Sloper:
That`s good!
Can you eat the little bas***ds? Ring Ouzel surprise? Sauteed Ring Ouzel.
That`s good!
Can you eat the little bas***ds? Ring Ouzel surprise? Sauteed Ring Ouzel.
In reply to John Cox:
As usual on this topic John you are spot on with respect to safer/harder and Bullybones I'll help you cover the postage.
As usual on this topic John you are spot on with respect to safer/harder and Bullybones I'll help you cover the postage.
In reply to Horse:
"...anything that can be done to minimise or stop the practice of TR ascents gets my full backing."
What? You want people to LEAD routes?? Disgraceful!
Yesterday I went back to (relead)Assegai at Trowbarrow (which I first led 32 years ago). And I was appalled what you leading types do to the rock. There's even decent cracks to belay in now... Where did they come from? They weren't there when I was a kid. What have you been doing to the rock. And oh look there's a nice big slot (grown naturally over the years, has it?)which protects the traverse. Worst of all, I could hardly make my fingers stick in 'the' slanting crack, now slippery because of all those nutty things you trad leaders keep jamming in there.
Ban leading I say.
(Mind you, we then did a few E3s on Red Wall just to check what long-term toproping has done to the rock. Conclusion: either ban all climbing or live and let live).
"...anything that can be done to minimise or stop the practice of TR ascents gets my full backing."
What? You want people to LEAD routes?? Disgraceful!
Yesterday I went back to (relead)Assegai at Trowbarrow (which I first led 32 years ago). And I was appalled what you leading types do to the rock. There's even decent cracks to belay in now... Where did they come from? They weren't there when I was a kid. What have you been doing to the rock. And oh look there's a nice big slot (grown naturally over the years, has it?)which protects the traverse. Worst of all, I could hardly make my fingers stick in 'the' slanting crack, now slippery because of all those nutty things you trad leaders keep jamming in there.
Ban leading I say.
(Mind you, we then did a few E3s on Red Wall just to check what long-term toproping has done to the rock. Conclusion: either ban all climbing or live and let live).
In reply to Carl: Where are you coming from? You say you lead it 32 tears ago and went back to relead it recently. Thats twice as many times as most people. Did you place rubber gear? Or are you attempting a bit of humour?
In reply to John Cox:
What is safe? There is a perception of being safe that a top rope can give that cannot be given by words alone.
It's easy for confident people to say that such climb is safe but someone else may not see it that way.
In reply to bullybones:
I'm not saying that I am for stakes at Windgather, which incidentally is my local crag also. The one prominent stake that is still there has caused me pain on a number of occasions (stubbed toe).
However, the idea that you can allow certain people/groups "to toprope the odd route" because that is deemed okay versus "mass toproping" is not practical. You either take Horse's view of ban ALL top roping, or you accept that it goes on and live with it.
What is safe? There is a perception of being safe that a top rope can give that cannot be given by words alone.
It's easy for confident people to say that such climb is safe but someone else may not see it that way.
In reply to bullybones:
I'm not saying that I am for stakes at Windgather, which incidentally is my local crag also. The one prominent stake that is still there has caused me pain on a number of occasions (stubbed toe).
However, the idea that you can allow certain people/groups "to toprope the odd route" because that is deemed okay versus "mass toproping" is not practical. You either take Horse's view of ban ALL top roping, or you accept that it goes on and live with it.
In reply to Grover:
>>>However, the idea that you can allow certain people/groups "to toprope the odd route" because that is deemed okay versus "mass toproping" is not practical. You either take Horse's view of ban ALL top roping, or you accept that it goes on and live with it.
I'd like to be able to agree, but how exactly do you ban any toproping, never mind all of it? Are you going to a law passed in Parliament? If you define mass toproping as that done by supervised groups, I don't see why that can't be discouraged by a little direct action here and there
>>>However, the idea that you can allow certain people/groups "to toprope the odd route" because that is deemed okay versus "mass toproping" is not practical. You either take Horse's view of ban ALL top roping, or you accept that it goes on and live with it.
I'd like to be able to agree, but how exactly do you ban any toproping, never mind all of it? Are you going to a law passed in Parliament? If you define mass toproping as that done by supervised groups, I don't see why that can't be discouraged by a little direct action here and there
In reply to bullybones:
I don't claim to have the solution. But finding a middle ground is an issue that would appear to be more complex the more you look at it.
Take the thought of stopping supervised groups, for example. The next issue would be what do you define as a supervised group? Three or more people led by a more experienced member passing on knowledge? Dangerous ground and an area that needs a lot more thought from people smarter than I before decisions were made.
What I am trying to say is that ideas in the form of blanket statements are all well and good, until you try put them into practice.
I don't claim to have the solution. But finding a middle ground is an issue that would appear to be more complex the more you look at it.
Take the thought of stopping supervised groups, for example. The next issue would be what do you define as a supervised group? Three or more people led by a more experienced member passing on knowledge? Dangerous ground and an area that needs a lot more thought from people smarter than I before decisions were made.
What I am trying to say is that ideas in the form of blanket statements are all well and good, until you try put them into practice.
In reply to John Cox:
I don't have any objection in principle to discreet belay stakes where they are needed, but I agree that Windgather is not such a place. There are places in Pembroke and Devon where they are pretty useful though.
Then again, perhaps we shouldn't be encouraging people. If you aren't prepared to ab off the ant hills at the top of Screda Point maybe you aren't ready for the Culm coast experience?
I don't have any objection in principle to discreet belay stakes where they are needed, but I agree that Windgather is not such a place. There are places in Pembroke and Devon where they are pretty useful though.
Then again, perhaps we shouldn't be encouraging people. If you aren't prepared to ab off the ant hills at the top of Screda Point maybe you aren't ready for the Culm coast experience?
In reply to Dave Garnett:
I think I should come clean after ranting a bit, although I'm a bit reluctant to raise some issues in case certain people get ideas. I placed a couple of belay stakes above some new routes on last year - not going to say where, but would be easy enough to find out. There is absolutely nothing else to belay on; zilch, not even a protruding clod of earth. But if I get wind of them being used for abbing by groups (not likely, given the location), I'll be up there in a flash to take them out.
Incidentally, they're dead cheap if you get them made custom by a place in Macc I know - about a quid each. This set me thinking it would be easy enought to carry them around with you. Of course if everyone started doing this the damage to the crag top would be heinous, so I now wish I'd never started this posting...
I think I should come clean after ranting a bit, although I'm a bit reluctant to raise some issues in case certain people get ideas. I placed a couple of belay stakes above some new routes on last year - not going to say where, but would be easy enough to find out. There is absolutely nothing else to belay on; zilch, not even a protruding clod of earth. But if I get wind of them being used for abbing by groups (not likely, given the location), I'll be up there in a flash to take them out.
Incidentally, they're dead cheap if you get them made custom by a place in Macc I know - about a quid each. This set me thinking it would be easy enought to carry them around with you. Of course if everyone started doing this the damage to the crag top would be heinous, so I now wish I'd never started this posting...
In reply to Grover:
You can't actually ban a TR by laws or rules, you do it by example just don't do it, you know it makes sense. As to groups well the TR is a convenient way of allegedly teaching a number of people pure and simple so no problem there either. They simply have to use a less convenient method of teaching.
You can't actually ban a TR by laws or rules, you do it by example just don't do it, you know it makes sense. As to groups well the TR is a convenient way of allegedly teaching a number of people pure and simple so no problem there either. They simply have to use a less convenient method of teaching.
In reply to Grover:
>It's easy for confident people to say that such climb is safe but someone else may not see it that way.<
I agree, to an extent. I acknowledge that weaker climbers may need to headpoint climbs that a more experienced climber would consider perfectly safe. There was a thread on here recently where a lad said that he headpointed Telli, which is a boulder problem, frankly, but if he needed to do that, I don't have too big a problem with it. It doesn't alter the basic point, though.
>It's easy for confident people to say that such climb is safe but someone else may not see it that way.<
I agree, to an extent. I acknowledge that weaker climbers may need to headpoint climbs that a more experienced climber would consider perfectly safe. There was a thread on here recently where a lad said that he headpointed Telli, which is a boulder problem, frankly, but if he needed to do that, I don't have too big a problem with it. It doesn't alter the basic point, though.
In reply to Steve:
Of course it isn't practical. Nor is limiting the practice to certain routes, groups, individuals, etc.
Let's face it, chipping and wire brushes are frowned on much more, yet there are cases being found all too often. If these can't be stopped completely, it is hard to believe that a common practice like top roping could be.
Of course it isn't practical. Nor is limiting the practice to certain routes, groups, individuals, etc.
Let's face it, chipping and wire brushes are frowned on much more, yet there are cases being found all too often. If these can't be stopped completely, it is hard to believe that a common practice like top roping could be.
In reply to Carl:
Ha ha, nice one!
There's definitely not enough live and let live going on around here.
Ha ha, nice one!
There's definitely not enough live and let live going on around here.
In reply to Chris Fryer:
"On the damning of toproping"
No, I didn't use rubber gear, Chris (!); but there again I didn't need to excavate cracks where there weren't any. I didn't in 1969 and I certainly didn't need to on Sunday... it had already been done for me.
I thought it was perfectly clear where I was coming from. In the 32 year interlude, people have excavated, prised and dug out (read chipped if you like) the solid rock on Assegai to create safer belays and gear placements. Despite being a very, very old climber, I can actually remember the belays and I can say categorically that more rock has ben extracted from this one route than all the bolt holes in Chee Dale.
My point, far from being humourous, is that the reality of routes lead on trad gear is that damage is inevitably created that is different, but not necessarily less than, from toproping.
In fact one might say that the damage IS worse in that it is premediated and deliberate.
So, in terms, of rock damage, people who lead routes can not afford to be 'holier than thou' relative to those who toprope.
In terms of style, leading may well be more impressive than toproping but there again people climb to enjoy themselves, don't they? So what is all this angry self-righteous stuff... the letters page of the Daily Telegraph?
"On the damning of toproping"
No, I didn't use rubber gear, Chris (!); but there again I didn't need to excavate cracks where there weren't any. I didn't in 1969 and I certainly didn't need to on Sunday... it had already been done for me.
I thought it was perfectly clear where I was coming from. In the 32 year interlude, people have excavated, prised and dug out (read chipped if you like) the solid rock on Assegai to create safer belays and gear placements. Despite being a very, very old climber, I can actually remember the belays and I can say categorically that more rock has ben extracted from this one route than all the bolt holes in Chee Dale.
My point, far from being humourous, is that the reality of routes lead on trad gear is that damage is inevitably created that is different, but not necessarily less than, from toproping.
In fact one might say that the damage IS worse in that it is premediated and deliberate.
So, in terms, of rock damage, people who lead routes can not afford to be 'holier than thou' relative to those who toprope.
In terms of style, leading may well be more impressive than toproping but there again people climb to enjoy themselves, don't they? So what is all this angry self-righteous stuff... the letters page of the Daily Telegraph?
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