UKC

I read a comment from Adam Ondra on 8a.nu that he has strict ethics of only the first bolt being clipped, and preferabbly none, as having any others clips preclipped is effectively a form of cheating as it saves power not having to clip them, yet, he runs it out past clips quite often in all the footage I have seen.
It seems a bit if an issue. At the end of it all, i guess if you honestly feel to yourself that you have climbed a given piece of rock without weighting or relying on a tight rope, then you have climbed that bit of rock and nobody can argue. The whole what clips you can and cant have clipped argument and ethic seems a bit strange. You could put the bolts in really difficult to clip places, and make the climb 3 grades harder. Or you could solo the climb, and you are definitely climbing the standard of the route. I can understand that it is a way of standardising ascents which is potentially important at the top level.
I guess one of the main reasons that it developed in our sport to lead sport climbs for 'the tick' is because in places in europe where it is 35m+ of overhanging rock it is not practical to top rope it, where as, some shorter less steep limestone crags in the UK lend themselves just as much to doing the climbs with a rope above your head. At the end of the day, sport climbing is supposed to be about the climbing and be totally safe.
Is it given these rules purely for the standardisation? What do people think about it all?

In reply to boothy:

I wish I had the balls to miss clips.

I'm sure AO is only saying that you preclip the minimum to ensure safety (IE the first) but beyond that big lobs into space are fine so missing clips high up is not a problem. Look at it this way - if its his route he can choose where to place the bolts in any case.

In reply to boothy:

So do you think skipping clips is cheating? The scoundrel!

In reply to boothy:
Wasn't there a term for doing a route with the quickdraws pre-placed? 'Pink pointing'?

How many bolts can you have your rope clipped into and still claim to be leading?

'i guess if you honestly feel to yourself that you have climbed a given piece of rock without weighting or relying on a tight rope, then you have climbed that bit of rock and nobody can argue' That's top-roping, right?

In reply to andyathome:

I'm not still claiming to be leading, its obviously top roping. I am asking where is the history behind having to lead a route with only one draw preclipped for it to be an ascent. Apart from southern sandstone where top rope ascents are acknowledged(instead of leading or soloing) you have to lead sport routes in order to be able to 'claim' the route...
Not really bothered, just curious what people think.

In reply to boothy:

It certainly started off by having to be able to climb back down to the ground from that draw (maybe it still is?). But it wasn't necessarily just the first draw - if you could climb down from the second one etc, than that was fine too. It then naturally followed that on subsequent redpoint attempts, you could just frig up to that bolt to clip it, rather than have to go through it all again - or I suppose stick clip it.

In reply to jon: Well yes but you still had to come back down to the deck to start your RP attempt.

In reply to whispering nic:

Yes, of course.

In reply to jon:

Got a bit ridiculous with some spending a day to tick the downclimb then a debate on whether you had to do the downclimb the same day yadda yadda.

In reply to boothy:

RE missing clips: I've been told that on hard steep routes some of the clips are not necessary or even intended to be clipped on the redpoint but are there to allow the route to be worked prior to a clean ascent. They are placed either because the reoute is too steep to get back onto the rock after a fall or just to allow very short sections to be worked.
RE clipping the first bolt: if several of us are planning to lead a route it is standard practice in my group for the previous leader to leave the first bolt clipped for the next climber. Sports climbing is supposed to be safe(ish) so why twist an ankle slipping off the first moves or having a hold snap on you? On the (now ancient) Buoux 8c video Ben Moon has the first bolt clipped so if it's good enough for him.....

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

AKA dogging bolts in old parlance.

In reply to jon:

Absolutely. Just as 'working a route' used to be called frigging it to death but, like it or not, for better or worse, the world has moved on

In reply to boothy: That if you top-rope something it is not the same as leading! That if you have the first 2 or 3 bolts pre-clipped where there is no justification then that is on the same spectrum i.e. still not leading the route. Was this not what Adam was getting at?

In reply to jon:

So does this mean I can get someone else to clip the first bolt on Scarlet Runner for me?

In reply to Dave Garnett:

ALWAYS have a rope-boy, Dave.

In reply to boothy:
Pre-clipping the first bolt or maybe two is really done to stop the climber decking in situations where the start of a climb can be particularly sketchy or awkward.

If you see someone doing this outside then you'll see that them getting to the first clip or so is a bit/very hairy, and the likely hood of them coming off in an uncontrolled way (from say a heel-hook, dyno etc), into say a pile of boulders, elicits the application of a bit of common sense. No route is worth crippling yourself over.

If you see someone cruising up past the first couple of pre-clipped bolts, then they may well be being a bit of a nob, and are trying to save their energy to claim the Lead. If you see this scenario happening indoors, then it's a combination of the above ego, and bad route setting.

Of course if you see the climber has a bad ankle, then the previous statement about common sense might well be more accurate.

In reply to ksjs:

Presumably, but this also implies that clipping is part of the grade - although sport grades are given for the worked ascent.

In reply to Bulls Crack: I wouldn't say that clipping is part of the grade but I would say that having to make clips increases difficulty if that makes sense.

In reply to boothy:where MR Ondra learnt to climb the bolts are placed sportingly! so when he travels to other places the bolts would seem almost ridiculously close,so of course he's going to save time and energy by missing clips!

In reply to silo: They're not on sport routes in Moravia. The distance between bolts in Sloup etc is no different to Spain or anywhere else.

I think it's a bit of a myth that the bolts on every route in CZ are ridiculously far apart.

In reply to boothy: The ethic I work too is: It is only OK to pre clip bolts if you have managed to cleanly clip them on the lead and then downclimb or occasionally jump to the ground without weighting the rope, theoretically toy can then clip as many as you wish, one or max two being the norm. As for missing clips, as many as your balls allow, sometimes this is the key to success. This applies to redpointing and ongight climbing.