UKC

With both traditional and sport climbing use in mind, Mark Glaister has been testing out some of the diverse range of quickdraws currently available in UK shops. These span from the almost Lilliputian size super-lightweight Metolious Mini wire-gate to the more conventionally styled and chunkier Petzl Spirit Express.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3999

In reply to UKC Gear:
I find half of the quickdraws on here mystifying.

For trad, buy DMM Phantoms. Anything bigger (unless very cheap) makes no sense.
For sport, either buy Petzls, or if you're on a budget, some cheap Simond or Camp solid gates (the Simond ones from Decathlon cost £5-6 and even have clean nose). Clipping wire gates is much harder than a bent solid. I don;t understand quickdraws with a wire gate on the clipping end and a solid on the bolt at all. I might consider one the other way around.

Most of the draws in this review are expensive and don't meet requirements.

That's my view anyway.

In reply to UKC Gear: Comedy is 7c...

In reply to Si dH:

Here in Aust. where carrot bolts with removable hangers exist, its considered dangerous to use wiregates on the bolt end as the hangers can lift off the bolt with rope drag. Yet I like wiregate on the rope end as it reduces gate flutter and weight. Hence I prefer a solid/bent wiregate combo. YMMV

In reply to Si dH:


Why? I have some phantoms but find them a bit fiddly. They clip OK, and and I can even manage them with ice climbing gloves on, but they definitely aren't as easy to clip as various bigger krabs. Some people will feel that 'clip-ability' is more important than weight.


Again that's an opinion that not everyone will share. I think well designed bent gates might be a bit easier to clip than well designed wire gates but its not a great difference. It's interesting that BD obviously have the opposite view to you because their top of the range Sports 'draw' has a wire gate for the rope end.

In reply to TobyA:

I thought it was interesting to have some new draws reviewed. On the whole I thought the reasoning behind certain features you might want were well explained.

But I do agree that Phantoms are all you need for trad I don't find them fiddly at all, but very slick in fact. I wouldn't say my hands are that small either.

In reply to StuckNut:

Thats a very useful bit of info thanks - when I was out in Oz I would have only had solid gates but can see the problem!!

Just out of interest are carrot bolts still put in new/ re-equipped routes?

M

In reply to Mark Glaister - Assistant Editor: I've always heard about "carrot bolts" but still don't actually know what they are. Could someone explain or link to a picture of one?

Cheers.

Mark - did you find the hoodwire thingy works? Doing a fair amount of sport climbing these days I'm a convert to keylocks as they make stripping QDs when lower off so much easier, but I understand BD think the hoodwire works well for this too?

JonC - some of my favourite draws are Phantoms for the gear end, Spectres for the rope end. I just find clipping the spectres a bit easier, particularly with gloves on. For years my fave QDs were BD Neutrinos gear end, BD Hotwires rope end. They are now set up on my six screamers for ice season. I'm really not sure why more people don't go for the compromise of big krab/little krab QDs.

In reply to TobyA:

there ya go I JFGI 4U

http://www.safercliffs.org/code/photos.html

In reply to lithos: Thanks for that - I think that I must have clipped a few of those in my days down-under.

M

In reply to TobyA: Yes Toby I was pretty taken with them and I use them for carrying my rack of nuts now.

M

In reply to UKC Gear:

I couldn't pick it out from the article but in the second table where it shows good for sport the wc astros and other mini krabs are labelled as not good for sport (although possible ok for trad).

Why is that, purely ease of clipping?

I would have though the astros were mainly aimed at sport, especially if they are packaged in sets of 5 with 10cm slings?

In reply to UKC Gear:

Suprised to see no mention of the variation in open-gate strengths which is a matter of interest to many and a topic much discussed in the industry and safety standards groups.

In reply to winhill:


Also, one expects sport draws to take many more falls, so one would pick a sturdier and more durable krab, whereas for trad one might prefer the lightest ones.

In reply to lithos: Ok, but I still don't see why wire gates would be worse than plain gates on any of those? To be honest they all look horrendous, but what the logic for different gates? I know some people think keylocks are better for old school bent sheet hangers: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb-qclab/qclab/qc-lab... but I don't see how any krab would be better or worse for attaching a krab to a just a bolt bashed into a hole which is what the carrot bolts appear to be.

In reply to UKC Gear:

I'm also surprised at the lack of gate open strength in the review, particularly as I know a few people who have broken or deformed the new lightweight small carabiners in falls...

In reply to TobyA:

On a carrot bolt you pop a hanger on and when the karabiner is clipped in it holds the hanger in place (the carrot bolt hanger is removable and you carry a number with you) Hope that this clears things up Toby?

M

In reply to jimtitt: Hi Jim

Perhaps you could reference a few online papers or articles for those whose wish to look into this subject. As I mentioned- under normal circumstances the published breaking strengths of karabiners are all well above the force that a normal fall would generate. If gate opening is the biggest worry for the user then a wire-gate/ hooded karabiner would be the best bet, along with careful positioning when using the karabiner to reduce the possibility of the gate rubbing or pushing against the rock and opening.

M

In reply to TobyA:
I have used a dozen of them for sport and trad for about six months. I like them, seems like a decent solution to the old notched gate problem.


Chris

In reply to winhill:

As I mentioned early in the article it is possible to use all the Qds for all purposes, however some are better for certain uses. The small karabiners are the lightest but are not as easy to handle as the larger ones. The larger karabiners are far easier to use for sport climbing with regard to clipping the bolt, rope in - and taking on and off the harness. Some also have fatter extenders which are good for grabbing etc.

In reply to Mark Glaister - Assistant Editor:

Well if `normal´circumstances giving `normal´ falls are all we are worried about we can reduce a hell of a lot of the standards for climbing gear!

One could reflect that the original standard for karabiners called for 6kN and the number of broken ones caused the standard to be raised to 7kN after some years. In the same way that the original standard came from the `leader never falls´ era we are now in a situation where falling is a routine part of climbing and broken karabiners are becoming commoner. An increase to 9 or 10kN is technically easy and considered desirable by many, the current advertising fixation on lightness rather than safety requiring some restraint by legislating a higher standard.

The DAV have long stated that the current open-gate standard is too low from their research into karabiner failure and made moves to have this raised. Some manufacturers also consider it too low and voluntarily impose a higher limit, even though they may be disadvantaged in the advertising stakes by having a few extra grams on their weights. DMM are one of these and perhaps you could contact them for their and the UIAA/CE thinking?

Personally I don´t think any karabiner less than 9kN is justifiable and thus stay with reliable manufacturers who work with values above this, DMM and Kong being especially good in this regard. A few grams here or there doesn´t interest me in the slightest since I am also regrettably a few kilo´s over the `normal´weight for a climber, all the more reason to look for a bit more strength in my gear!

Jim

Jim

In reply to jimtitt: Thanks for those comments Jim. It would be interesting to hear what the manufacturers themselves think about the current set limits - perhaps they might like to comment on here.

In reply to jimtitt:

I use the phantoms for trad precisely because they had the best open gate strength to weight ratio. They also handle really well, I think they're brilliant.
Surprised they weren't included in the article.

And Comedy is 7c.

In reply to Mark Glaister - Assistant Editor:

AFAIK most new routes are equipped with more contemporary fixed hangers or ring bolts. Re-equipped routes I am not sure, there seams to be a tradition of sticking with the style of the original route setter so if carrot bolts were originally used then possibly they are replaced with the same when they get a bit too corroded to trust. Someone with more knowledge on the subject may know more. I have climbed routes recently with newish looking carrot bolts in them.

Here is a discussion on the topic:

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6...

It appears even the trusted Petzl Spirits can be a problem!

In reply to StuckNut:

Thanks very much for that info - I didn't have any idea about the suitability or vice versa of karabiners for carrot bolts. Gives me a good heads-up for when I head south again.

M

In reply to UKC Gear: Just a point regarding gear being loose in the rucsac....if a GEAR-PAK were used to keep all the equipment tidy, clean and secure, there might be less chance of the problem you highlighted on your video. Other than this, I have found that the DMM 'ball ended' wiregate to be most helpful when taking a krab off the harness without snagging on the loops.

Alan Turner.

In reply to UKC Gear:

Most of the focus in this thread seems to be on the krabs. I was surprised since the review covers trad and sport to see only one example of an "open" extender (ie not stitched across the middle). Not sure that I'm in a majority here, but I only use open extenders for trad, mostly 30cm ones, with a few 20's for the first placements and the crux moves and a few 60's trebled over. Always seems to me to reduce ropedrag, and the chance of nuts lifting out. To get the best deals, this means I usually buy complete quick draws, then discard the stitched extender supplied and replace it with an open extender purchased separately. I keep the stitched extenders in a cupboard for wall or sport use, but now have more than I ever need for this purpose. Am I alone in this? I don't feel especially well served by the manufactureres in this respect. Yes, I have seen deals on loose phantoms in sets of five, but smaller shops don't tend to stock them.

In reply to Martin Hore:

I think due to the known number accidents caused by open extenders with 'strings' (as shown in the video in the review) fewer manufacturers will be making them. Personally I can't remember the last time I had a nut lift out due to rope drag and I generally climb with a single rope and the majority of my QDs being 12 and 17 cms. Seat your nuts well and they won't come out is my experience.