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I have just got back from a 4 day trip to Font covering Apremont, Aigu, Bois Ronde, Isatis, Bas Cuvier, Elephant and Dame Joanne. I have not done much there before but my experience on this trip makes me think that the standard grade equivalence tables are way out. On my local outcrops (Pex Hill, Helsby, Frodsham) and on grit I manage V2 regularly and V3 and more if the problem suits me. In Font I managed the occasional low 5 but mostly found 4s hard or failed on them. I got several 3bs by the skin of my teeth. More than one of the 3bs felt harder than my local V2s whereas the equivalence tables suggest 3b should be V0+ which I generally find easy in the UK. (I am not talking particularly about problems in styles that are rare in the UK such as friction slabs or grattons, just problems with standard holds.)
Is it just me or does anyone else think the same? Maybe my bouldering is just going rapidly downhill!
Is it just me or does anyone else think the same? Maybe my bouldering is just going rapidly downhill!
In reply to harold walmsley:
Font grades are correct. Everywhere else is overgraded by about 3/4 grades.
Font grades are correct. Everywhere else is overgraded by about 3/4 grades.
In reply to harold walmsley:
Font grades are generally correct, however a lot of problems have a certain trick to them that can cause some issues. Once you get the trick they become easy.
There is certainly a bit of variance at the low grade problems, when you look at the harder stuff it tends to be more consistent. I remember being spat of a 3b at appremont on my first trip out there, later that week managed La Marie Rose (6a), so you are not alone in being surprised by problems in font.
I would wager though the biggest issue would be foot work, as font is a lot less forgiving due to the polish found on a lot of lower grade routes (particularly when compared to grippier rock types)
The good news is next time you are out in the uk, or at the wall you will probably notice a significant improvement (I certainly did)
Font grades are generally correct, however a lot of problems have a certain trick to them that can cause some issues. Once you get the trick they become easy.
There is certainly a bit of variance at the low grade problems, when you look at the harder stuff it tends to be more consistent. I remember being spat of a 3b at appremont on my first trip out there, later that week managed La Marie Rose (6a), so you are not alone in being surprised by problems in font.
I would wager though the biggest issue would be foot work, as font is a lot less forgiving due to the polish found on a lot of lower grade routes (particularly when compared to grippier rock types)
The good news is next time you are out in the uk, or at the wall you will probably notice a significant improvement (I certainly did)
In reply to harold walmsley: Most likely because you're not used to the local rock. When I went I found the grading to be soft but that's probably because my local rock is southern sandstone, which requires similar technique but with less friction.
In reply to harold walmsley:
Sub Font 6 the majority of font grades are wrong nearly always towards the sandbag end, its not even unusual for them to be out by 2 whole numbers. I've done a V2 slab given 3b in Font. So, try some harder stuff there next time as you'll find it matches your expectations much more closely. Also check out some of the more obscure areas then you can see what Font grades were like before the polish. Thing about low grade font is once you accept the grades are unreliable you can enjoy the magical problems that much more: let the rock guide your body not some number.
Sub Font 6 the majority of font grades are wrong nearly always towards the sandbag end, its not even unusual for them to be out by 2 whole numbers. I've done a V2 slab given 3b in Font. So, try some harder stuff there next time as you'll find it matches your expectations much more closely. Also check out some of the more obscure areas then you can see what Font grades were like before the polish. Thing about low grade font is once you accept the grades are unreliable you can enjoy the magical problems that much more: let the rock guide your body not some number.
In reply to Offwidth:
yep, from my experience anything 6a and up is consistent and makes sense with the level of difficulty I'm used to.
anything below that seems random.. in popular areas it's sometimes due to polish in other areas just random grading I think
Also I wonder at the accuracy of he guidebooks I've used..
yep, from my experience anything 6a and up is consistent and makes sense with the level of difficulty I'm used to.
anything below that seems random.. in popular areas it's sometimes due to polish in other areas just random grading I think
Also I wonder at the accuracy of he guidebooks I've used..
In reply to harold walmsley: I second what everyone else has already said. I have been going for the last 3 years and still get spat off some of the easier problems.
As someone mentioned already, there is generally a trick to most of the lower grade problems that make them feel easy once sussed - footwork is key as is making sure you clean and squeak your boots.
I find the named problems in guidebooks generally pretty consistent grade wise, but some problems on the blue and red circuits can feel nails.
Another issue is conditions. I go in Sep, when it's still pretty warm so the friction can be poor, and everything feels harder, but there is a higher chance it will be dry for the week.
As someone mentioned already, there is generally a trick to most of the lower grade problems that make them feel easy once sussed - footwork is key as is making sure you clean and squeak your boots.
I find the named problems in guidebooks generally pretty consistent grade wise, but some problems on the blue and red circuits can feel nails.
Another issue is conditions. I go in Sep, when it's still pretty warm so the friction can be poor, and everything feels harder, but there is a higher chance it will be dry for the week.
In reply to ziggytang: "I second what everyone else has already said" Presumably you mean except the three posters above who indicate the font grades are normally correct and the problem is with the climber.
In reply to Offwidth:
Ok, I second what the majority of posters have said.
Do you feel better now after picking up on a mistake in someones post, and thus posting a pretty pointless post which offers no answer to the original question. People like you are what's wrong with UKc forums.
> (In reply to ziggytang) "I second what everyone else has already said" Presumably you mean except the three posters above who indicate the font grades are normally correct and the problem is with the climber.
Ok, I second what the majority of posters have said.
Do you feel better now after picking up on a mistake in someones post, and thus posting a pretty pointless post which offers no answer to the original question. People like you are what's wrong with UKc forums.
In reply to ziggytang:
I wasn't getting at your post I just wanted the message to be clear. I think its important people realise these grades are wrong more often than not. Too many people pedal the lie that low font grades just need the experience or skill to understand: although this can be an issue if you are not used to the rock those of us who are experienced enough (but had to learn) know the grading problem is bigger than the experience issue. I can't see there being any argument against this when problems of identical style can get grades varying over 9 notches depending on the polish. Pof helps close the gap but even that doesn't explain the full difference.
I wasn't getting at your post I just wanted the message to be clear. I think its important people realise these grades are wrong more often than not. Too many people pedal the lie that low font grades just need the experience or skill to understand: although this can be an issue if you are not used to the rock those of us who are experienced enough (but had to learn) know the grading problem is bigger than the experience issue. I can't see there being any argument against this when problems of identical style can get grades varying over 9 notches depending on the polish. Pof helps close the gap but even that doesn't explain the full difference.
In reply to Offwidth: In reply to Offwidth: My bad, I apologise, I just get annoyed at pointless posts on here where people seem to be acting smug etc when the only reason to reply really is if you actually have any useful insight. And I took your 1st post as smug, but 2nd as more insightful.
There can be a major difference in the lower grades when you compare to other problems you have done at a similar grade and style, but that's what I like about Font, I like having my ego shot down, it reminds me a lot of my local climbing wall, some great sandbags so you don't get ahead of yourself.
I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm in font I dont spend a lot of time trying and trying the same problems when there's so much good problems to get on, and maybe you forget how long you might spend on some problems back at your local venues, how well you know the rock, and how easy things feel once you actually get it done.
There can be a major difference in the lower grades when you compare to other problems you have done at a similar grade and style, but that's what I like about Font, I like having my ego shot down, it reminds me a lot of my local climbing wall, some great sandbags so you don't get ahead of yourself.
I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm in font I dont spend a lot of time trying and trying the same problems when there's so much good problems to get on, and maybe you forget how long you might spend on some problems back at your local venues, how well you know the rock, and how easy things feel once you actually get it done.
In reply to ziggytang:
No problem...understand completely.
I like a mix...following circuits, bypassing the desperates if necessary after a few goes, and on other days working stuff to success (providing Im not so far off that I'm flailing). It's a brilliant place and so constantly getting hung up on the bad grades, so that you dont enjoy it, is a bit silly.
No problem...understand completely.
I like a mix...following circuits, bypassing the desperates if necessary after a few goes, and on other days working stuff to success (providing Im not so far off that I'm flailing). It's a brilliant place and so constantly getting hung up on the bad grades, so that you dont enjoy it, is a bit silly.
In reply to harold walmsley:
There's magic in them woods.
Firstly, it takes a good while to get in tune with the medium - Font requires skills that are rarely in demand elsewhere. A 4 day trip won't really allow you to 'gel'. Also, low grades will occasionally feel hard simply because most people will be doing the bulk of their training indoors on steep & burly stuff, using big holds. Font's problems were put up over the last century when the focus was much more on perfecting technique and footwork. I bet you that if you choose carefully, you should get up both 6a and 6b problems.
As others have pointed out, part of the joy of Font is the unpredictability - even when you've done loads of grade 7s, you'll still occasionally get shut down by the odd 5...
There's magic in them woods.
Firstly, it takes a good while to get in tune with the medium - Font requires skills that are rarely in demand elsewhere. A 4 day trip won't really allow you to 'gel'. Also, low grades will occasionally feel hard simply because most people will be doing the bulk of their training indoors on steep & burly stuff, using big holds. Font's problems were put up over the last century when the focus was much more on perfecting technique and footwork. I bet you that if you choose carefully, you should get up both 6a and 6b problems.
As others have pointed out, part of the joy of Font is the unpredictability - even when you've done loads of grade 7s, you'll still occasionally get shut down by the odd 5...
In reply to Stefan Kruger:
"Also, low grades will occasionally feel hard simply because most people will be doing the bulk of their training indoors on steep & burly stuff, using big holds. Font's problems were put up over the last century when the focus was much more on perfecting technique and footwork."
Another one! This is simply the usual excuse for the bad grading, my footwork is fine at those grades, most grades in popular areas are wrong and this is usually because they have got heavily polished without the grades moving to take account.
"Also, low grades will occasionally feel hard simply because most people will be doing the bulk of their training indoors on steep & burly stuff, using big holds. Font's problems were put up over the last century when the focus was much more on perfecting technique and footwork."
Another one! This is simply the usual excuse for the bad grading, my footwork is fine at those grades, most grades in popular areas are wrong and this is usually because they have got heavily polished without the grades moving to take account.
1
In reply to Offwidth: Not just polish, the ground has also been eroded from the base of many problems, making them harder, but again, the 'traditional' grade hasn't changed
In reply to Doug: Thanks, I've not been visiting long enough to judge that.
In reply to Offwidth:
I disagree. The grading isn't bad, nor (with a few notable exceptions) do problems seem to be polished to the extent that the grading should change.
It's not "wrong", just different.
> Another one! This is simply the usual excuse for the bad grading, my footwork is fine at those grades, most grades in popular areas are wrong and this is usually because they have got heavily polished without the grades moving to take account.
I disagree. The grading isn't bad, nor (with a few notable exceptions) do problems seem to be polished to the extent that the grading should change.
It's not "wrong", just different.
In reply to Offwidth:
nor have I (although some of my French colleagues have) but just look at the tree roots that are now well above the surface in some places to get an idea
> (In reply to Doug) Thanks, I've not been visiting long enough to judge that.
nor have I (although some of my French colleagues have) but just look at the tree roots that are now well above the surface in some places to get an idea
In reply to Stefan Kruger:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. As Im a bit obsessive I've climbed on most easy circuits in most areas of the forest now and I think the obscure areas are fairish graded and make internal logical sense and the more popular areas are way off and often the internal grades are illogical, with Cuvier Orange being typical of the worst offendors for bad grades and internally not making sense.
How do you explain the grades of otherwise identical problems varying so much?
We'll just have to agree to disagree. As Im a bit obsessive I've climbed on most easy circuits in most areas of the forest now and I think the obscure areas are fairish graded and make internal logical sense and the more popular areas are way off and often the internal grades are illogical, with Cuvier Orange being typical of the worst offendors for bad grades and internally not making sense.
How do you explain the grades of otherwise identical problems varying so much?
In reply to Offwidth:
Just remember the grading goes like this :- 4a,3c,4b,5a,5b,4c,5c.
There's always something strange about 4c slabs...
Just remember the grading goes like this :- 4a,3c,4b,5a,5b,4c,5c.
There's always something strange about 4c slabs...
Agree with sentiment that anything below Font 6a seems to have been graded by pulling a number out of a hat. Even on my last visit there were blue 4s I couldn't do whilst on the other hand ticking off the odd 6c...
In reply to fried:
I have no problem with Font grades just the equivalence tables, which seem to be way out
> (In reply to harold walmsley)
>
> Font grades are correct. Everywhere else is overgraded by about 3/4 grades.
>
> Font grades are correct. Everywhere else is overgraded by about 3/4 grades.
I have no problem with Font grades just the equivalence tables, which seem to be way out
In reply to Offwidth:
I had not expected grade equivalence to be different in the harder grades so my experiences with the lower grades put me off trying the harder stuff. Will be more adventurous next time.
> (In reply to harold walmsley)
>
> Thing about low grade font is once you accept the grades are unreliable you can enjoy the magical problems that much more: let the rock guide your body not some number.
>
> Thing about low grade font is once you accept the grades are unreliable you can enjoy the magical problems that much more: let the rock guide your body not some number.
I had not expected grade equivalence to be different in the harder grades so my experiences with the lower grades put me off trying the harder stuff. Will be more adventurous next time.
In reply to fried:
That would imply a logical system when there is none now in the popular areas. I'm sure there was once, but polish (and apparently ground erosion) did for that long ago. There is something funny about any pure low grade slab at font, not just 4c. I've been on UK5c smears on 3's.
That would imply a logical system when there is none now in the popular areas. I'm sure there was once, but polish (and apparently ground erosion) did for that long ago. There is something funny about any pure low grade slab at font, not just 4c. I've been on UK5c smears on 3's.
In reply to harold walmsley:
I started bouldering in Font, and apart from Offwidth I probably have the most experience of climbing low level Fontainebleau circuits (on this thread!), so for me these are the benchmark grades. Yes, there are sandbags. Some areas seem to follow a different internal logic. Some circuits have the same grades as when they were put up and are now polished to a high sheen.
Whenever I climb elsewhere, normally in France but also in the U.K, I'm surprised by how easy the low level stuff is.
I remember being nervous about going to Targasonne because the lowest graded stuff was all 4b/4c. I was struggling on 3cs at the time. When I got there I found out that 4cs were easy onsights.
The only place I've ever bouldered in the U.K is the Peak, and it's the same story. I climbed trad a long time ago, so my recollections of British Tech grades are hazy, but shouldn't short safe 4s have UK 5b moves on them?
Maybe I'm better than I think (I doubt it) but I'd debate if any 4s I've climbed outside of Font have moves on them that hard.
It's easy for me 'cos everywhere else I climb my grades jumps. I've been trying a 4c slab at Rocher fin for 3 years, it just doesn't compare to the grades outside Font.
If you want to push your grade in Font stay off the marked circuits or stay out of the main forest.
I started bouldering in Font, and apart from Offwidth I probably have the most experience of climbing low level Fontainebleau circuits (on this thread!), so for me these are the benchmark grades. Yes, there are sandbags. Some areas seem to follow a different internal logic. Some circuits have the same grades as when they were put up and are now polished to a high sheen.
Whenever I climb elsewhere, normally in France but also in the U.K, I'm surprised by how easy the low level stuff is.
I remember being nervous about going to Targasonne because the lowest graded stuff was all 4b/4c. I was struggling on 3cs at the time. When I got there I found out that 4cs were easy onsights.
The only place I've ever bouldered in the U.K is the Peak, and it's the same story. I climbed trad a long time ago, so my recollections of British Tech grades are hazy, but shouldn't short safe 4s have UK 5b moves on them?
Maybe I'm better than I think (I doubt it) but I'd debate if any 4s I've climbed outside of Font have moves on them that hard.
It's easy for me 'cos everywhere else I climb my grades jumps. I've been trying a 4c slab at Rocher fin for 3 years, it just doesn't compare to the grades outside Font.
If you want to push your grade in Font stay off the marked circuits or stay out of the main forest.
In reply to fried:
My ad-hoc guidance is on anything up to F4b add a number to get the approximate UK tech grade and even then be very wary of sandbag grades on anything highball and heavily polished. At F6a the problems away from polished slabs are aligning to UK 6a problems as they should. This leaves a squeezed F4c to F5c section where the grades are often harder than the F6a's.
My ad-hoc guidance is on anything up to F4b add a number to get the approximate UK tech grade and even then be very wary of sandbag grades on anything highball and heavily polished. At F6a the problems away from polished slabs are aligning to UK 6a problems as they should. This leaves a squeezed F4c to F5c section where the grades are often harder than the F6a's.
In reply to Offwidth:
It's true, there's a the whole area British tech 5b/c, that covers a lot of Font grades. Interesting since tech grades come from Font grades, not sure which one is moving in which direction.
There are however a lot of F5A/B slab which are O.K. F4C slabs I imagine are graded from when we didn't all have desk jobs and were a bit more flexible, and doing rock overs with your foot by your ear on millimetre wide crimps was easier.
It's true, there's a the whole area British tech 5b/c, that covers a lot of Font grades. Interesting since tech grades come from Font grades, not sure which one is moving in which direction.
There are however a lot of F5A/B slab which are O.K. F4C slabs I imagine are graded from when we didn't all have desk jobs and were a bit more flexible, and doing rock overs with your foot by your ear on millimetre wide crimps was easier.
In reply to Offwidth:
Very succinct - couldn't agree more actually
> (In reply to fried)
>
> My ad-hoc guidance is on anything up to F4b add a number to get the approximate UK tech grade and even then be very wary of sandbag grades on anything highball and heavily polished. At F6a the problems away from polished slabs are aligning to UK 6a problems as they should. This leaves a squeezed F4c to F5c section where the grades are often harder than the F6a's.
>
> My ad-hoc guidance is on anything up to F4b add a number to get the approximate UK tech grade and even then be very wary of sandbag grades on anything highball and heavily polished. At F6a the problems away from polished slabs are aligning to UK 6a problems as they should. This leaves a squeezed F4c to F5c section where the grades are often harder than the F6a's.
Very succinct - couldn't agree more actually
In reply to Offwidth:
Just back from a whole month in Font and first time I've seen this thread. I dunno about the whole easy problem/ sandbag debate. One thing's for sure, many of the classic easy circuits have been around for a long time and have therefore been climbed by literally 1000's and 1000's of people. What this means of course is that the beta/ technique for a given problem has crystallised over the years and the grade given will be for the absolute simplest way of getting up that piece of rock. As a fairly huge sweeping generalisation, these factors don't really play into the hands of the wall fit but technically 'less fit' British climber.
As a case in point, a couple of my mates managed to climb the classic Roche aux Sabots 'sandbag' L'Angle de Jean Luc this trip. For those that don't know, this blunt arete has been downgraded from 6c to 6b+ and quite frequently shrugs off some of the 'best' (read strongest) climbers. We were fourtunate enough to see a real technician climbing it and have now learned the 'trick' that turns a complete sandbag into a fairly amenable 6b+ (right heel to right hand on the big sidepull crimp for the crux move to the top).
The climbing heritage of Font is such that all easy problems are not just 'easy problems' but little gems in their own right that will all have their own little tricks to learn turning them into amenable, technical climbs. Speaking to a few of the old bleausards over the past month they clearly all know every problem inside out and it is this level of knowledge and technical understanding that makes a Fb4c climb like a Fb4c. If you're struggling ask a local - most of them are very friendly and will be delighted to share a problem's technical secrets will you!!
Just back from a whole month in Font and first time I've seen this thread. I dunno about the whole easy problem/ sandbag debate. One thing's for sure, many of the classic easy circuits have been around for a long time and have therefore been climbed by literally 1000's and 1000's of people. What this means of course is that the beta/ technique for a given problem has crystallised over the years and the grade given will be for the absolute simplest way of getting up that piece of rock. As a fairly huge sweeping generalisation, these factors don't really play into the hands of the wall fit but technically 'less fit' British climber.
As a case in point, a couple of my mates managed to climb the classic Roche aux Sabots 'sandbag' L'Angle de Jean Luc this trip. For those that don't know, this blunt arete has been downgraded from 6c to 6b+ and quite frequently shrugs off some of the 'best' (read strongest) climbers. We were fourtunate enough to see a real technician climbing it and have now learned the 'trick' that turns a complete sandbag into a fairly amenable 6b+ (right heel to right hand on the big sidepull crimp for the crux move to the top).
The climbing heritage of Font is such that all easy problems are not just 'easy problems' but little gems in their own right that will all have their own little tricks to learn turning them into amenable, technical climbs. Speaking to a few of the old bleausards over the past month they clearly all know every problem inside out and it is this level of knowledge and technical understanding that makes a Fb4c climb like a Fb4c. If you're struggling ask a local - most of them are very friendly and will be delighted to share a problem's technical secrets will you!!
In reply to peterp:
You should have done your homework and watched this before you left:
youtube.com/watch?v=hSO4__gWvtc&
Clearly a tall man's method.... but more graciously, well done! I've failed it on two trips now, trying something like this sequence:
youtube.com/watch?v=rEKpTE7Q1Uk&
I think, btw, that in official guides it's tended to drift upwards in grade rather than down: from 6b to 6b+ and now 6c in the Montchausse / Godoffe 'Off-Piste' book.
More generally though, Offwidth's main point was about routes in the 5a-5c range. The red circuit at Sabots might be evidence in favour of his argument...
You should have done your homework and watched this before you left:
youtube.com/watch?v=hSO4__gWvtc&
Clearly a tall man's method.... but more graciously, well done! I've failed it on two trips now, trying something like this sequence:
youtube.com/watch?v=rEKpTE7Q1Uk&
I think, btw, that in official guides it's tended to drift upwards in grade rather than down: from 6b to 6b+ and now 6c in the Montchausse / Godoffe 'Off-Piste' book.
More generally though, Offwidth's main point was about routes in the 5a-5c range. The red circuit at Sabots might be evidence in favour of his argument...
In reply to peterp:
My arguments are only for below F6a. My friends and I are experienced enough and go often enough to know most of the time what is a trick problem and what is a polished sandbag. I fully agree that it's possible for someone experienced to miss the easiest method (I did this on the true 4c method for the 5b problem start to Verandah Buttress on Stanage ... with hundreds if not thousands of others) but it's even easier for a high grade climber to think something sub F6 is several font notches easier than it actually is.
My arguments are only for below F6a. My friends and I are experienced enough and go often enough to know most of the time what is a trick problem and what is a polished sandbag. I fully agree that it's possible for someone experienced to miss the easiest method (I did this on the true 4c method for the 5b problem start to Verandah Buttress on Stanage ... with hundreds if not thousands of others) but it's even easier for a high grade climber to think something sub F6 is several font notches easier than it actually is.
In reply to harold walmsley:
As already said for many problems there's "the way" to do it - once you find the trick you just apply it each time, but until you do you can spend ages falling off. Just watch a regular local warming up and at first it's really impressive, "poetry in motion" but then you realise that he's done it so often that each move is nearly automatic.
As for the overall grading, I find that there is a general coherence for the forest and surrounding areas but obviously the grading is much harder than on crags or mountain routes. There are exceptions, often due to polish, or broken holds but no one has bothered to change the grade. Some problems depend on your morphology - tall climbers can just reach for the jug while smaller ones have to do several moves to get there.
If you ever happen across a new circuit they seem much easier than the older ones so I reckon polish must make a big difference... It's makes a change from getting sandbagged on what should have been an easy problem.
PS. All remarks for up to 5, beyond that is, and will certainly remain, a realm of mystery for me
As already said for many problems there's "the way" to do it - once you find the trick you just apply it each time, but until you do you can spend ages falling off. Just watch a regular local warming up and at first it's really impressive, "poetry in motion" but then you realise that he's done it so often that each move is nearly automatic.
As for the overall grading, I find that there is a general coherence for the forest and surrounding areas but obviously the grading is much harder than on crags or mountain routes. There are exceptions, often due to polish, or broken holds but no one has bothered to change the grade. Some problems depend on your morphology - tall climbers can just reach for the jug while smaller ones have to do several moves to get there.
If you ever happen across a new circuit they seem much easier than the older ones so I reckon polish must make a big difference... It's makes a change from getting sandbagged on what should have been an easy problem.
PS. All remarks for up to 5, beyond that is, and will certainly remain, a realm of mystery for me
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Twaddle... if you can find the mystery behind the moves for your typical popular font 5 you can also climb the odd soft touch 6c. I've done quite a few lower 6 problems now and regularly fail on 4s and sometimes on 3s.
Climbing in a group with better climbers and talking to locals has the benefit of realising my struggles are not down to me but because the problem is harder or scarier than the 6as I'm succeeding on.
Twaddle... if you can find the mystery behind the moves for your typical popular font 5 you can also climb the odd soft touch 6c. I've done quite a few lower 6 problems now and regularly fail on 4s and sometimes on 3s.
Climbing in a group with better climbers and talking to locals has the benefit of realising my struggles are not down to me but because the problem is harder or scarier than the 6as I'm succeeding on.
In reply to harold walmsley:
But to your original point, the UK interpretation of V grades is reasonably internally consistent, but tends to be soft, at least at the lower end - in comparison to Hueco Tanks, where essentially Vermin grades were first widely used/invented.
(Including the V grades in my own Lakes Bouldering guide)
There are plenty of V1s in Hueco that would get V3 or more in the UK, so the equivalence table probably works better between Font and US V grades.
But to your original point, the UK interpretation of V grades is reasonably internally consistent, but tends to be soft, at least at the lower end - in comparison to Hueco Tanks, where essentially Vermin grades were first widely used/invented.
(Including the V grades in my own Lakes Bouldering guide)
There are plenty of V1s in Hueco that would get V3 or more in the UK, so the equivalence table probably works better between Font and US V grades.
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:
That would certainly fit with my experiences at the lower grades.
> (In reply to harold walmsley)
>
> the equivalence table probably works better between Font and US V grades.
>
> the equivalence table probably works better between Font and US V grades.
That would certainly fit with my experiences at the lower grades.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm sorry but this statement is just truely ridiculous. The font grading system is so called as it was made in font, therefore can't be wrong. This means that you either are having an issue with the technical style of the problems or other things are overgraded massively!
> (In reply to harold walmsley)
>
> Sub Font 6 the majority of font grades are wrong nearly always towards the sandbag end, its not even unusual for them to be out by 2 whole numbers. I've done a V2 slab given 3b in Font.
>
> Sub Font 6 the majority of font grades are wrong nearly always towards the sandbag end, its not even unusual for them to be out by 2 whole numbers. I've done a V2 slab given 3b in Font.
I'm sorry but this statement is just truely ridiculous. The font grading system is so called as it was made in font, therefore can't be wrong. This means that you either are having an issue with the technical style of the problems or other things are overgraded massively!
In reply to harold walmsley: I know I have just replied but this thread is truely ridiculous! Has nobody considered that this is the home of bouldering and these probelms have been up for centuries, they are the standard all other things should be judged by and just because everyone can pull out a v3 on big orange jugs it doesn't mean by any stretch of the imgination that you have the skills to climb even a 3a slab, it is a skill that must be learned and is the reason you will often see a very old frenchman wandering the forest casually ticking everything up to 8a! I am not saying i am any better than anyone here at the style but after 5 weeks spent in the forest over a number of years a am massively better at the technical masterpieces!
In reply to b3n99:
Maybe not. I would trust Offwidth's judgement against a Bleusard guidebook writer - it is hard to discriminate sub Font 6 grades if you are grade 8 climber with a lifetime of cruising the circuits under your belt. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that "clasic" easy problems have retained their original grades despite a subsequent 50+ years of over-use and poffing. In addition there are specialist techniques in Font such as using gratons that the locals underestimate.
Maybe not. I would trust Offwidth's judgement against a Bleusard guidebook writer - it is hard to discriminate sub Font 6 grades if you are grade 8 climber with a lifetime of cruising the circuits under your belt. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that "clasic" easy problems have retained their original grades despite a subsequent 50+ years of over-use and poffing. In addition there are specialist techniques in Font such as using gratons that the locals underestimate.
In reply to Offwidth:
You may be able to I'm past it
> if you can find the mystery behind the moves for your typical popular font 5 you can also climb the odd soft touch 6c
You may be able to I'm past it
In reply to b3n99: Just because Font is the home of bouldering doesn't mean that the guidebooks have consistent grading. In fact, because it's so traditional and French (my impression is that the French value tradition more than most - generalisations/predjudice/blah blah not interested) I think it's more likely that grades will be all over the shop.
I agree that Font is particularly technical rock, and to the uninitiated, a 3a slab will naturally feel about 6a due to the skill-gap. But having been a few times and improved enormously at the style of climbing, I remain totally convinced that many of the 4b problems are never climbed by anyone, bleausard or not, climbing with a top grade below say, 6b.
I agree that Font is particularly technical rock, and to the uninitiated, a 3a slab will naturally feel about 6a due to the skill-gap. But having been a few times and improved enormously at the style of climbing, I remain totally convinced that many of the 4b problems are never climbed by anyone, bleausard or not, climbing with a top grade below say, 6b.
In reply to b3n99:
"The font grading system is so called as it was made in font, therefore can't be wrong."
The irony for me in that is that knowing the reluctance to change grades over there, the history is possibly the main reason the grades are often so wrong on the older easier problems. The cause of the grade change is the polish and pof and various other factors but the locals could easily have regraded to keep the consistency of meaning in the system.
"The font grading system is so called as it was made in font, therefore can't be wrong."
The irony for me in that is that knowing the reluctance to change grades over there, the history is possibly the main reason the grades are often so wrong on the older easier problems. The cause of the grade change is the polish and pof and various other factors but the locals could easily have regraded to keep the consistency of meaning in the system.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm not sure the average Font local is that obsessed with grades. You try a circuit and manage some, flop on others, but the actual numerical grade is only an indication. You reckon that you should be able to manage such and such a grade but it's not a science... it depends on morphology, how the problem has worn over the years, whether the original graders were having a good day or not.... loads of different factors - no big deal really
I'm not sure the average Font local is that obsessed with grades. You try a circuit and manage some, flop on others, but the actual numerical grade is only an indication. You reckon that you should be able to manage such and such a grade but it's not a science... it depends on morphology, how the problem has worn over the years, whether the original graders were having a good day or not.... loads of different factors - no big deal really
In reply to harold walmsley:
Nobody has mentioned that a grading system must reflect the climbing community who establish it.
In the UK the 'average' boulderer is a young-ish bloke who climbs at least part of the time indoors & the grading system reflects that (American boulderers tell me this is even more true in the states). The short girls that I climb with find many inconsistencies where something that's impossible for them gets a lower grade than the neighbouring problem that they find easy.
This is to be expected as they far away from the 'average build.
In Fontainbleau by contrast there seems to be a more even spread of both age & sex among the participants meaning that the 'average' climber is likely to be shorter with less arm strength & presumably the grading will reflect this.
Nobody has mentioned that a grading system must reflect the climbing community who establish it.
In the UK the 'average' boulderer is a young-ish bloke who climbs at least part of the time indoors & the grading system reflects that (American boulderers tell me this is even more true in the states). The short girls that I climb with find many inconsistencies where something that's impossible for them gets a lower grade than the neighbouring problem that they find easy.
This is to be expected as they far away from the 'average build.
In Fontainbleau by contrast there seems to be a more even spread of both age & sex among the participants meaning that the 'average' climber is likely to be shorter with less arm strength & presumably the grading will reflect this.
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