UKC

I thought it was about time to start this thread. I have used walls to train since the first ones were built, now the walls are very good/amazing, the holds are brilliant but alas the route setting remains for the most part in the dark ages. Can some wall managers owners and route setter please take note of the following
1. Use the wall to your advantage, some of the features are incredible, long roofs, sweeping 40 degree boards etc, so why are a lot of the problems 4 moves long? Most wall now have the space for bigger longer problems.
2. Control your egos, yes its nice to show off by having extreme moves that 90% of people cant touch, but get a grip, for example, I counted 7 dynamic shoulder press moves at the wall in Bristol, a great way to destroy your rotator cuff. Problems and routes at walls need to be repeated to train, why should you repeat something that makes you get injured? routes like this are shoddy and unacceptable.
3. Small footholds-where are they? Yes you can buy them, but very few problems have them, especially the easier ones. Using small footholds improves technique for real rock, and also enables you to set harder problems which don't have to have stupid injury inducing moves to make them hard!
4. Volume of problems, more please! Blank areas of plywood are useless to climb up! Route setters need to get over the fact that their problem is not a magnificent line they have climbed up a blank wall in rocklands (doesn't it look nice and make you proud!). Get over it! It's a waste of space! The best bits of Manchester and the works(comp wall) could have five times the amount of problems.
5. Use some imagination! Problem/routes between v2-V4 f6a-6c+ can in fact be interesting, so stop making boring dumbed down lines of jugs!
6. Use some imagination managing the place, maybe have some fixed problems maybe leave the best up for longer, have a voting system, listen to advice of climbers, be prepared to tweak holds, routes and problems (sometimes thats all they need) please don't get all defensive when you discover a problem/route doesn't work and needs changing.If you want to do endurance work you need to be able to link problems, make it possible.
7. Pay your route setters!!! There are some great setters out there reward them properly for good work.
Come on, wake up and sort your walls out, the facilities are potentially brilliant, everything is ready to go, sort it out!!

In reply to hueco:

Move to Sheffield. The Climbing Works is great, already does everything you mention

Excellent advice to setters, hope the managers kick some bottom.

I wouldn't mind if the setters just changed a couple of holds it can change an unclimbable 7a route to nice 6b ish.They don't have to strip a route to make a new one.
I think walls forget we go to them for training, we want interesting/climbable routes not injury inducing idiotic moves.

I don't care what grade it is.

In reply to lanky_suction1:

That they do. Its a brilliant place, and the setting is pretty consistently excellent.

Wouldn't hurt to throw us punters a bone and reset one of the relatively easy circuits once in a while though. If your top whack is below about 6a-6b ish its getting pretty same-y in there at the moment.

In reply to hueco: As one of those 'wall managers' I would recommend having a word and giving the manager of your local wall some direct feedback. That way they have a chance to react and improve things for you. We often receive feedback from customers which we more often then not listen too because we want people to enjoy their wall experience, it also makes sense business wise and of course we have pride in what we do.
Having said that it sounds like you're unlucky with how your wall is run and I am a little dismayed as it's all pretty basic stuff; setting quality varied routes and problems, this is the bread and butter of a good wall. I am often shocked at how little importance is given to the route and problem setting in many walls and this often seems to be relative to how much business they get from large taster session type groups and how much value they give their 'climber' customers.

Goodboy, stripping a few holds instead of stripping a route is quite frankly the poorest form of resetting, if you yourself would be happy with this it doesn't say much about the quality of the wall you use, I for one would expect a lot more from a wall.

In reply to hueco: If you're that unhappy about it that you feel the need to post a thread dictating that you want the wall to suit you then why don't you go to manager of your local wall and tell him you want change, I'm sure they'll do something, so long as your not an ignorant tw*t.

Either that or just save your membership money and build your own with the savings.

Btw which wall is it that your ranting about?

it must be quite hard for route setters to keep doing what they do,
i'm just saying that i've had a few 6c/7a climbs that i enjoyed but couldn't finish and adding or changing a couple of moves wouldn't go amiss.

I would rather a wall change a few holds than have the same hard/impossible route up for ages.

If you have a big centre then its probably hard to get around and change routes as regular as we want.

In reply to hueco: great post for me we have spent the weekend with our new wall realising when they installed the routes there are 90% above a 6a. New beginners cant get started.
First job is to throw load more holds on the wall then we ae looking at chaning 1/3 of the routes very 6 weeks. (24 routes total)does this sound right to people?

sounds good to me but then i couldn't tell you how many routes are changed at my local walls or how often.
When i have asked about new routes then i've been informed there were loads changed on top ropes,but i don't do TR's.
I believe you can't please everyone especially when it comes to climbers.

In reply to hueco:

And include a 'natural' bit so that those that want to can set their own problems and use holds properly rather than having to use the ubiquitous sticky-out bolt on.

Deaf ears I know since there seem to be ven less of these types of feature around than there there used to be grumble grumble.

In reply to jack1996:



Well over the christmas period I've visited 5 of the 6 big walls in London (one was closed) & the OP pretty much sums up the setting at four of them (including, I suspect, the two busiest in the country) with the fifth starting to head the same way so I think it's pretty general.

If the OP were to complain I suspect he'd be told, as I have, that 90+% of their business comes from pure indoor climbers & beginners & that's what they like so tough.

Well DUH! that's what they like because that's all they've ever been given the chance to learn.
They don't like small holds as they've never had rhe chance to learn how to use them.

In reply to i.munro: Being a route setter myself it's true what you say! people moan and moan, but no matter what you change people will still moan. One guy moans that our wall wasn't changed enough, so we re set the entire bouldering section, then when he came back, he moaned that the grades were off and that they were all too hard. We said to him well whats the problem with hard stuff then? he replied, 'Well, I cant do it, and it doesn't fit in with my training.' Another instructor then simply said, well then train differently, like working the new routes, that's the whole bloody point of training! What'd be the point in training if you can do everything!

What the OP doesn't understand is that he is merely 1 out of a about possibly maybe a thousand members of the wall, and that to please every single person isn't actually possible!

Like the OP said, 'The wall is a tool, so use it.'

Use it then!

In reply to hueco: The problem with some walls is that they use the staff as setters to save paying people who actually know what they are doing which is not always a great idea, not everyone can set well, anybody can throw a bunch if holds on a panel but there is a bit of an art to getting the moves to flow well and climb correctly, it also seems that poor setters just space the holds out to make a route harder , another problem is inapropate holds for a specific grade or holds that aren't in keeping with the rest of the route.
Imop it takes quite a number of years climbing to gain the knolage of how a quality route should be set also the setters should be 100% familiar and used to climbing with the type of holds they are using to set with. Another factor to look at us the clientele that will be using the routs, not everyone us 6 foot with a + 5 ape index like me, you have to make them doable for the likes of my girlfriend who is 5'3" and gets really frustrated with some of the very poor setting we have seen

I love people mentioning that they've tried climbing an unclimb-able 6c/7a so they should change the holds/moves. Generally means its your weak point, so try the move in different ways and train that weak point, that way you find your weakness and train it! I have changed holds before as it didn't go/was horrible, but more often than not its because they're not strong enough/not using technique. Now I am not the greatest better, nor would I say I am amazing but I think I'm ok, with being a tall long armed bloke not setting overly reaching routes.

Now as an instructor/setter I fully take in all criticisms, both bad and good and always listen. Every time I set I stay around if I'm not climbing or go around asking people when working to see what's good, what isn't and why. I don't get upset if i get told its crap or anything, I just ask why and take it in.

I agree with more volume of problems. At my wall we try to have as much as we can. Problem with this though is people get lost/confused because there's routes on top of each other. Personally I think they should look harder :P


My biggest pain is actually reachy moves, and I'm not exactly small. Makes me feel sorry for the short arses!

In reply to m0l0t0v:

oopps! can't count. In my post above that should have read 4 of the 5 big walls and so on.

In reply to m0l0t0v:

My main problem with route setters is regarding route colours. Being colour blind, I really struggle to distinguish between certain holds, especially with the lighting in climbing walls.

Blue and purple. Black and grey. White and Grey. Green and Grey. Black and blue. Yellow and beige. Yellow and white. And combinations of these. Obviously similar colours too, ie dark blue and black.

Not so bad on boulder problems, but when leading and having to shout to your belay every other move if you can use a hold it gets very annoying! This is especially bad at Kendal Wall I've found, though I rarely visit and forget to mention it.

Contrasting colours would be lovely!

In reply to James Malloch:

That's a fair one. Though not something easily achievable at my wall as its too small. Bigger centres could do though still be tricky. Have you spoken to the centre about it? As some may not know!

Pros and cons with a big number of routes in a certain areas...

In reply to hueco: I've route set at our local walls for a few years and would make the point that when route setting you're working under a lot of constraints such as: having to cater for beginners in trainers up to people wanting to try 8A, the actual physical space at the wall to set this range of routes in, the quality/type/condition of holds that the wall owns etc. I'm often asked to set more 5's, or more 6's, or more 7's etc but it's not easy....

One point I would like to make is that I don't think it's possible to set routes accurately that are way outside your grade. For example, I mostly lead/climb 6A to 7A at climbing walls warming up on 5s. I think I can set in that range since I know the difference between the grades. I don't think I can set 7B to 8A because they all feel mega hard to me, I also don't think I can accurately say what the difference between a 5A or 5C is since they all feel equally easy to me - not being elitist saying this, just objective. For that reason at our wall I try and get someone who is climbing 5A to 5C to set or climb those routes and the same with 7B and above.

One of the things I've noticed at walls is that many of the route setters are hard climbers themselves but to me doesn't automatically make you a good route setter....

In reply to hueco:

Re your first point about problems generally being shorter than they could be: I'm guessing it's so as not to clash / cross the line of other problems. You can imagine the scene: two climbers approaching each other, near the top of their problem....who gives way first....the stronger or the one higher up?!

In reply to m0l0t0v:


I genuinely boulder more so it's not too bad as if they're similar you can work moves out first, but leading is a lot harder. Most places are generally okay, though I've been confused at the works each time I've visited, though only occasionally, and Kendal wall for leading is bad.

I've forgotten to mention it when I've visited the last few times unfortunately.

In reply to dan:

"The problem with some walls is that they use the staff as setters to save paying people who actually know what they are doing"

At Alien 2 they regularly let the customers set. I dont think it is a big deal to let the odd person set a problem. But the last time I went there there were so many poor problems, and so many problems of one particular style I decided not to go again.

Why wont walls wont get professional route setters in - even if it is just to give their own staff a training day?

In reply to bagger:


I think there's a lot more to it than that.

1) I have noticed that some professional setters whose work I have alway senjoyed set consistently poorly ( ie. dumbed down jug ladders) at other walls, Why? My guesses -
Time pressure from management?
Instructions from managenent to avoid small holds (as that's what they think the 'market' wants)
Poor choice of available holds ?

2) Experience alone is not enough. There are experienced professional setters who simply aren't very talented. It's clearly a difficult thing to do well. Given that, I don't think a 'training day' is going to help much.

In reply to hueco: I think all these points are very valid.
I would also add that to me the problem often is of the general philosophy of the climbing centre.
Often the management do not seem to understand basic climbing development.
As an example it is well known that beginners and novices can improve very fast,later as the climber has become more experienced they may well hit a plateau and not know what to do next.It is not always their fault if all they have to practice on are the same feet follow hand,tweaky sort of problems.
I have seen many strong climbers here in London over the last few years whose footwork is still crap...and that's because they are doing the same moves again and again at the same walls.This not how to leave a 'plateau's behind(if that's what they are wanting to do).
What the solution?
Basicaly if the managers look or reflect on points made by the users-along the same lines as the OP I cannot see them going very wrong.Their users will thank them for this as well!!
In London it is not all bad and the route setting can be brilliant and very inspiring but overall the walls are still not fulfilling their potencial in my mind.

In reply to hueco:

1. If the "incredible features" were always used then the routes would become incredibly samey with every route change becoming negligible and soon enough you'd be moaning about that.
2. Perhaps you should work on your shoulder stability and strength so that you can do these types of moves rather than complaining that you can't. Maybe said wall has provided you with an opportunity to work on a weakness? If there weren't any then you'd probably be complaining that there aren't any shouldery problems.
3. Small footholds are commonplace in many walls. If they were used on easier grade problems you'd probably complain that the small footholds made the problems too hard.
4. Maybe the problem is a magnificent line but you're not good enough to get up it? Why shouldn't places like the works reserve their comp wall for a few very good elite problems? It's not like you've climbed all the problems in there is it. If there were more problems you'd probably complain that you couldn't tell which hold was for which route as they're all covered in chalk.
5. If all the routes were "interesting" then you'd get even fewer in the centre as they would have to wander and you'd be back to point 4. If you feel that you're climbing V2-V4 and they're jugs then I'm sorry to break it to you but you're being misled, V2-V4 is hard! But then if they were actually V2-V4 you'd probably complain about that.
6. If you want to train endurance use some imagination, run laps, run 4x4s don't imagine that you can have your interesting problems and your links and everything else that you're demanding. If certain problems were left up longer than others then you'd complain that they weren't the ones you wanted, you're not asking for a voting system you're asking manage every wall you visit and have every problems set for you. Routes are checked and tweaked before you get on them, if you can't do it that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Clearly though if everything "worked" for you then you'd complain that there wasn't anything hard enough or interesting enough.
7. How much do you suppose route setters should be paid? If entry prices were put up to cover the cost of this you'd complain about that too.

Since you have the magic formula for running the perfect wall perhaps you should do it!?

Next time you want to rant consider how hard people work to provide you with these fantastic facilities at all and maybe tone it down and offer it as friendly, well-meaning advice rather than a self-centred rant. But really I think you just want to moan and complain.

In reply to hueco:



I totally agree with everything that Nasher47 has just writen. I have a question about your bullet point 5. Can you please tell me what centre you are talking about as I need to tick off a F6c for my NICAS, and if they are dumbed down lines of jugs. This would make it a lot easier for me, at Craggy and Craggy2 the only dumbed down juggy routes we get down fall above the F5+.

Thanks,

In reply to hueco:
I think the Works have the mix about right. Most of the walls have a high density of problems. The comp wall is well spaced and allows you to concentrate on a problem rather than trying to work out which holds are in and which are not.
The one thing the works do that makes a big difference is to change the wall fairly often and not just the problems. Every few weeks/months new plywood appears, often this is much more than just a big volume screwed on. This helps keep the route setting interesting.

I think we are all getting a bit spoilt. It is not that long ago that the best you could of expected was a fixed brick monstrosity will bits of stone cemented in.

In reply to nasher47:
I do not think the OP was a self centered rant,i think it was a statement of reality.
There has been problems like these in london and continue to be so.One must qualify any critique with the recognizing the dedication,imagination and experience the local route setters bring to the walls at the same time.
Most of your argument though seemed to be one of projection when really the argument is one really focussed around what are the walls and route setters going to do about this.
I would read up on route setting literature(the relevant US website are good for this),read more about training as well and then i think you will see the OP points in a different light.

In reply to witnessthis:
No I view the OP in the light that everything focuses on what the OP wants. If you re-read it you will see that it is written as a series of instructions for what walls should be doing. It is completely a matter of personal opinion. Of course I don't have an issue with that, I'm sure much of it is valid. I take issue at the way it has been presented. The suggestion is that everyone working the climbing industry is lazy and disinterested in their customers' climbing experience and that the OP knows exactly what everyone else wants.

I am certain that the industry needs to improve the quality of what it provides but I feel that the information could have been more effectively communicated as constructive feedback.

Thanks for the advice about reading, I'm clearly naive and far less well read than you!?

In reply to nasher47: Possibly? Who knows!?
I know that just in the last 18 months alone I have been to at least 10 different walls across the country and the issues that the OP highlighted often seemed present....In London things are mostly improving but at some other walls(outside of london) well I would just say many of the the OP's points do apply for sure-maybe I just visited at a bad time?
I do not mean to seem in any way offensive or pointlessly negative.

In reply to nasher47:


I thought it was exactly that, you on the other hand seem very uptight. Do you work at a wall?

In reply to nasher47:

The OP has include a number of concrete suggestions to allow walls to actually find out what their customers like, should they wish to do so

"6. Use some imagination managing the place, maybe have some fixed problems maybe leave the best up for longer, have a voting system, ... ,,,,, be prepared to tweak holds, routes and problems (sometimes thats all they need) please don't get all defensive when you discover a problem/route doesn't work and needs changing"

& I would add "put the setters name somewhere" . I will go out of my way to find the work of some setters & to avoid the work of others but I can't do that if everything is anonymous.

In reply to hueco:

Good post. I'm a regular at Boulders in Cardiff. The place is massive but often a rope will have 2 or 3 routes on it. There is loads of space on the walls for more holds. If you put 5-6 routes on each line, all within one grade of eachother, you could just stay put in one place and get loads of climbing done without moving around. Foundry in Sheffield do this well, with different grades if you use only features for feet, or holds for feet and hands, thus getting up to 10 different routes on one rope.

I also think that the routes should be graded by the same person regardless of who set them, as the grades are sometimes way off and you waste your time trying to climb a nigh-on impossible 5 whilst sailing up a 6c like its not there!

In reply to hueco:

I agree with nearly all your points and I'd add to "Small footholds-where are they?" Small hand holds-where are they? Its possible to get positive plastic crimpts that aren't tweaky or skin unfriendly and are more reflective of what we climb on out doors (as well as adding variety).

It's obvious from some of the comments from people who work at walls (train differently; Generally means its your weak point, so try the move in different ways and train that weak point) that just speaking to the wall manager will not fix the issue.

In reply to hueco:

As a wall owner, I would advise you to take this up with the wall's in question in a pleasant and constructive way. Many facilites throughout the country try and put their customers interests first.

At TCA we want to please all of our customer base and we know that two of the most important factors of our business are to set good routes with a good selection of holds and change them often (not to mention happy helpful staff and gourmet coffee!). We provide channels for feedback on our website and value our customers opinions and suggestions. We also have a very experienced team of routesetters and forerunners, many nurtured through our own routesetter training program, who are anal about the quality and consistency of their routes and proud to have their names attached to them.

The original message does sound like a rant at all walls, though I'm sure it wasn't meant in that context. Many facilities need direct feedback, as mentioned before, in a constructive way rather than being generalised and ranted at in a public forum.

In reply to nasher47:


What makes you think the industry needs to improve what it is offering? Every wall I've visited (with the exception of some out of the way ones) has been jam packed on a week night and damp weekend. What motivation does this provide for them to improve their product?

In reply to hueco:

If route setters are tweaking routes, it would be great if there is the facility to let climbers know they've been tweaked - particularly for the likes of me that never remember routes. Warwick has a good system of taping a note to the foot of their routes which gives grade, route setter and the date the route was set.

Having a negative ape index and not being that tall, I hate it when route setters simply move holds further apart to make them hard. The odd reachy route is fine but not every damn route. The Tower in Leicester is brilliant at setting hard routes that aren't necessarily reachy - just interesting.

In reply to Arms Cliff:

Good point & this is something I've been asking about on here for a while.
What percentage of people are willing to pay a premium for a better product?

If nobody is willing then, as you say why should they bother?

FWIW I am currently travelling at the weekend for about 3 hours (round trip) & paying roughly twice what it would cost me to climb in London in order to find some problems that aren't simply a line of jugs so if anyone wants my money....

In reply to Arms Cliff:
The fact that more and more walls are opening means that soon enough a lot of people will be in a position to make a choice about where they climb. Better to be ahead of the curve.

In reply to hueco:

There's a tongue in cheek vid about route setting on Climb Newcastle's website, click on the 'Setting the Scene' vid

www.climbnewcastle.com/video.php

Have to say the route setting here is first class, other centres could learn a thing or two.

In reply to hueco:

Certainly with Harlow (which is a relatively new wall), the mistake I think was made was buying far too many big holds and not enough smears / crimps. Something subsequent route setters unfortunately seem to have been lumbered with.

In reply to Jubilee2:
Be very careful if planning to add holds to what is already a good route.
If planning to add holds to a 6a route to make it easier for beginners it would be an idea to tag the additional holds so that the higher grade climber can avoid them,not a bad idea where routes are at a premium.

In reply to hueco: I like your rant. I always find myself moaning to friends about the route setting, this ailment has come about since a trip to canada this summer. Previous to this trip I had no gripes with the route setting at my local wall, this was before i new better. I went to an indoor climbing 'gym' twice whilst in canada and after spending a while getting used to following tags instead of colours I came to the conclusion that the route setting at the walls ive been to in britain is so far behind the quality of route setting over the Atlantic. When i returned to the UK problems with route setting started to become clear to me.

First off the method of creating a route by using a single colour of holds is rubbish compared to using tape; most holds of the same colour are of a similar style, on a long route this makes for very monotonous climbing using similar holds all the way i want to have to think about how to hold the hold like I do when im outside. Using tape to identify the holds that are "in" allows a route setter to avoid this problem. And dont complain about tape being harder to see, the holds outside aren't bright pink, look at the holds and remember where they are, you get used to it.

Secondly I found that the route setters at the gym I went to in calgary made much better use of the wall space available to them having boulder problem traverses leading into the route as well as more meandering lines. (sure these cross other lines but just dont do them when the wall is busy and incorporate the same holds into more direct lines (via tape) for when it is busy)

Thirdly I have found that there is a massive gap between the quality of boulder problems and routes, the boulder problems tend to be a lot more interesting and unique, why cant the routes be more individual? I have not been on an indoor route which has a defined crux section, sometimes there is a single hard move but most of the time each move is of similar difficulty with no rests or variation in the style of climbing. Surely it cant be too much to ask for route with a pumpy start into a really good rest (knee bar on a route would be nice) into a tricky crux testing the ability of the climber to recover when given a rest.

Finaly my last point agrees with the OP in that there definitely needs to be more holds on the wall, then at least if i get bored of the problems that the wall has paid someone to set i can make up my own with the holds provided (this is very fun you should try) but if there aren't enough holds on the wall it doesn't work and doesn't leave enough options.

I have spoke to my local wall, and since then the quality of routes has improved slightly, but i still think its not as good as it could be, in response to asking them to try setting a line using tape and a much wider range of holds i was told that using tape makes the setters lazy as they just change the tape and not the holds, this is wrong the setter doesn't have to become lazy, if they do this they are rubbish, it just gives the setter a much larger range of holds to use for each problem/route.

Heres a video of someone who cares about the routes they set.... vimeo.com/32471856

In reply to geordiepie: I have to agree, that the setting at Climbnewcastle is second to none, there and the works are the best set walls in the country, the other Newcastle walls could learn a lot!

In reply to Paul Twomey: Certainly no complaints about the variety, quantity, or quality of the problems at TCA (although we're still waiting for the off width crack up the mother board!).

It would probably be a lot more productive to speak to your wall directly, rather than hoping that they read this.

Having 7 shouldery moves in a wall doesnt sound at all unusual. Perhaps you need to practice shouldery moves.

In reply to GDes: Thanks to Paul and Graham and the everyone else who has replied to the OP, I thought I was being reasonably constructive with my comments, I think this is more of a rant....

The Tyranny of badly set plastic
look at these possible routesetting scenarios and see if you recognize them.
1 The one legged man, has somebody with only one leg been setting again? Haven't got enough holds of the right colour sod it they will just have to swap hands and feet on the same holds, who needs two legs anyway!

2 If i put holds further apart it will make the route harder wont it? And after all, things are reachy outside so get over it!

3 Problem/route not hard enough, instead of dropping the grade and making it a good route ill stick this crap hold/hideous move in....

4 Its easy, so why waste time setting it, chuck those holds on and walk away, 'low 'grades outside don't have complex technical moves or sequences on them do they? I wouldn't know I have never botherd to think about it.

5 I am really strong/inexperienced/haven't been injured enough yet so i can't differentiate between a difficult move and a move which if repeated will injure me. Or....

6I don't have to climb this route/problem ever again so it might not realize/don't care that when repeated it's going to injure somebody else.

7I climb 8b+, you climb whatever, er i don't really know, therefore you haven't got the right to make any comment criticism or observations about my magnificent route setting! Despite the fact that you might have climbed thousands of routes and problems for years all over the world on all different rock types or might just be a naturally talented beginner, you, 'the punter' don't know what your talking about.

8 I assume because you can't do it you don't want to do it and think its crap. You will make a value judgement based simply on your ability to climb it or not. eg Not To Be Taken Away=good, =Careless Torque crap, The Feather=good Martini Roof=crap etc.
Believe it or not, and this must come as a shock to some people out there judging by some of the replies to the original post, working on problems and routes you can't do, and more importantly being inspired to try them is the reason and motivation behind why many climbers go climbing! Shock horror!

I think that was more of a rant. But does it sound familiar?
Just to balance things out a bit, I have climbed lots of really well set problems and have had loads of fun at climbing walls and do appreciate the hard work and talent it takes to set well. Like one of the posts said It would be good to know who set the problems because sometimes you want to congratulate the setter for making something brilliant, even if you can't do it! The OP wasn't aimed specifically at one wall or route setter but seems to be a general trend. Some walls seem to be more progressive than others, The works The Castle and Bristol for example seem to have more consistent quality problems than some others. I have talked to setters and managers and I was interested to find out what other people thought and to hear some suggestions of how to make some great facilities even better, which if you are a setter or a manager you might want to hear as well!

In reply to hueco: In the light of your points which i think are very valid I think Climbing wall managers ought to listen more to customers and at least find a compromise and not alow over-dominant egos get out of control AND please try not project these issues back towards the user(s) as they are not always the source of the problem.
I repeat the mantra that I Do understand how much climbing walls put into trying to get it right for all...a thankless task in some ways i am sure.Hope nobody is really offended by raising these issues(they should'nt be).