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Hi, I am wondering where I stand legaly on not getting paid for a job I did 3 weeks ago.
I am a bathroom fitter and on completing the en-suite refurb got a cheque off the customer, all was well. I got a text off the customer to say they had found snags and would I go back. I was back the next working day and put the minor things right but the cheque had been stopped. Most of the snags were easily put right or related to the poor quality of the stuff they supplied, one of which was the toilet cistern being 3mm further to one side on it's predrilled holes. I took it to bits to show him why, then put it back in untill they get a replacement. That was a week ago and she said she would pay me when she was happy. This week I got a text to say the toilet is leaking. Not been back to sort it yet but will do this week even though it's only a temp fitting.
I have 7 days labour and about £350 in materials in the job so not massive money but how many times do I go back when I still haven't seen a penny and where do I stand on making them pay. I wouldn't mind so much if they had paid me half or three quarters of it and kept a bit back!
I am a bathroom fitter and on completing the en-suite refurb got a cheque off the customer, all was well. I got a text off the customer to say they had found snags and would I go back. I was back the next working day and put the minor things right but the cheque had been stopped. Most of the snags were easily put right or related to the poor quality of the stuff they supplied, one of which was the toilet cistern being 3mm further to one side on it's predrilled holes. I took it to bits to show him why, then put it back in untill they get a replacement. That was a week ago and she said she would pay me when she was happy. This week I got a text to say the toilet is leaking. Not been back to sort it yet but will do this week even though it's only a temp fitting.
I have 7 days labour and about £350 in materials in the job so not massive money but how many times do I go back when I still haven't seen a penny and where do I stand on making them pay. I wouldn't mind so much if they had paid me half or three quarters of it and kept a bit back!
In reply to Phill Mitch: small claims court?
In reply to sleavesley: Thought so. Cheers.
In reply to Phill Mitch: I know a debt collector, not your average kind.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
What you NEED out of every job is a recomendation. so think what will get you that.
Put the work right, ask for 90% now and say you'll collect the other 10% in 2 months when the job is proved to be 100% right.
What you NEED out of every job is a recomendation. so think what will get you that.
Put the work right, ask for 90% now and say you'll collect the other 10% in 2 months when the job is proved to be 100% right.
In reply to New POD:
That sounds like good advice.
"word of mouth" is the best form of advertising there is. And you can't buy it.
That sounds like good advice.
"word of mouth" is the best form of advertising there is. And you can't buy it.
In reply to Phill Mitch:I've been a self employed joiner for 18 years and have had my fair share of non payers. I can tell you it's way too early to think about small claims court- you'll just lose your court fee cost and lots of time/ stress. You've got a bit of an idiot customer, bite your lip and do what you need to do to get paid (work wise), in the long run it is the easiest and quickest way.
Mark.
Mark.
In reply to New POD: That sounds like REALLY bad advice to me, my advice would be to get payment ASAP.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Far too early for the SCC. To get to that stage you're going to have to submit a final bill; not get paid after a reassonable time; ask in writing again to get paid; not get paid after a reasonable time; write with a 'pay up or we're going to the SCC' letter; not get paid ... you get my drift?
Suck it up; go along and sort the issues with good grace; get paid and make a big diary note never to do any work for them again.
Far too early for the SCC. To get to that stage you're going to have to submit a final bill; not get paid after a reassonable time; ask in writing again to get paid; not get paid after a reasonable time; write with a 'pay up or we're going to the SCC' letter; not get paid ... you get my drift?
Suck it up; go along and sort the issues with good grace; get paid and make a big diary note never to do any work for them again.
In reply to DNS:
That could take a couple of months..
How long would it take to fix the snags?
> (In reply to Phill Mitch)
>
> Far too early for the SCC. To get to that stage you're going to have to submit a final bill; not get paid after a reasonable time; ask in writing again to get paid; not get paid after a reasonable time; write with a 'pay up or we're going to the SCC' letter; not get paid ... you get my drift?
>
> Far too early for the SCC. To get to that stage you're going to have to submit a final bill; not get paid after a reasonable time; ask in writing again to get paid; not get paid after a reasonable time; write with a 'pay up or we're going to the SCC' letter; not get paid ... you get my drift?
That could take a couple of months..
How long would it take to fix the snags?
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I'd be paying you once it's ALL perfect.
Who procured the parts, that you fitted ? If it was them, you have a little more of a moral stance, but if you bought all the stuff, then you are responsible for it, as the supplier.
Perhaps you need to structure your contracts better ? Just an idea but : 30% deposit, 60% on completion, 10% after 2 months might make some customers more happy.
30% being the Parts ?
60% the payment for your time ?
and 10% your bonus profit ?
Minus £100 cash back if they recommend you to someone who take you on later.
What would that be on a £10K bathroom 1% ?
> Hi, I am wondering where I stand legaly on not getting paid for a job I did 3 weeks ago...................................................................................................This week I got a text to say the toilet is leaking. Not been back to sort it yet but will do this week even though it's only a temp fitting.
I'd be paying you once it's ALL perfect.
Who procured the parts, that you fitted ? If it was them, you have a little more of a moral stance, but if you bought all the stuff, then you are responsible for it, as the supplier.
Perhaps you need to structure your contracts better ? Just an idea but : 30% deposit, 60% on completion, 10% after 2 months might make some customers more happy.
30% being the Parts ?
60% the payment for your time ?
and 10% your bonus profit ?
Minus £100 cash back if they recommend you to someone who take you on later.
What would that be on a £10K bathroom 1% ?
In reply to browndog33: It's not, it's really good advice, in the name of good will
As an architect I deal with payment disputes regularly being contract administrator. Always nice to have a JCT Contract, or even letter of intent from the client and signed agreed cost/price fees etc, and offer to allow a 5% or 10% cash moiety to be collected after... well you know better; say 2 or 6 months (however long you see fit as a defects liability period). If they spec’d the toilet they assume responsibility.
As an architect I deal with payment disputes regularly being contract administrator. Always nice to have a JCT Contract, or even letter of intent from the client and signed agreed cost/price fees etc, and offer to allow a 5% or 10% cash moiety to be collected after... well you know better; say 2 or 6 months (however long you see fit as a defects liability period). If they spec’d the toilet they assume responsibility.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
And they have a leaking toilet. You are probably honest and they are probably honest but they are using the only leverage they have to make sure the work gets completed properly.
I'd have thought your best bet is to go back and fix the problem on the basis that they will then pay at least 90%, preferably 100%. If I were them I'd want to hold back a balance in case problems recur. I speak as someone who once lost a much larger account to a dodgy tiler by paying him too soon.
> Hi, I am wondering where I stand legaly on not getting paid for a job I did 3 weeks ago.
>> I have 7 days labour and about £350 in materials in the job so not massive money but how many times do I go back when I still haven't seen a penny and where do I stand on making them pay. I wouldn't mind so much if they had paid me half or three quarters of it and kept a bit back!
And they have a leaking toilet. You are probably honest and they are probably honest but they are using the only leverage they have to make sure the work gets completed properly.
I'd have thought your best bet is to go back and fix the problem on the basis that they will then pay at least 90%, preferably 100%. If I were them I'd want to hold back a balance in case problems recur. I speak as someone who once lost a much larger account to a dodgy tiler by paying him too soon.
In reply to Lukeva: Really? Have you ever tried to recover a 'retainer'?
Mark
Mark
In reply to browndog33: In a professional capacity, yes all the time, as an agent. The moiety or retention fee is released at the end of the defects liability period. In the case of a construction contract it is usually paid upon request, otherwise the breach of contract is really very obvious. The OP client/customer is still in breach of their contract, although, it is less obvious without a standard form. This is why I advocated a written contract, in what ever form, obviously not a JCT but the principal remains unchanged. Whatever, my professional advice would be to maintain an amicable position as suggested earlier by a previous post
In reply to Lukeva: One in the hand is better than two in the bush..
Mark.
Mark.
In reply to Phill Mitch: By the way my business was forced to close down 2 months ago (after 18 years of trading) partially due to a late payments. Try to keep emotions out of the debt collection process and as far as reasonably possible keep on good terms with customers.
Good luck.
Mark.
Good luck.
Mark.
In reply to browndog33: Well that proverb has zero relevance.
To the OP I hope you are paid in full and a timely manner
To the OP I hope you are paid in full and a timely manner
In reply to Lukeva: Is the fact that the longer a debt goes unpaid the less like it is to be paid ring any of your bells or is that not relevant either?
In reply to Phill Mitch:
You could go to small claims and win payment for the full amount of the cheque plus costs. By and large, the reason why the cheque was stopped is completely irrelevant.
The customer would have the right to get you to fix the work, but that's a separate issue.
> Hi, I am wondering where I stand legaly on not getting paid for a job I did 3 weeks ago.
> I am a bathroom fitter and on completing the en-suite refurb got a cheque off the customer, all was well. I got a text off the customer to say they had found snags and would I go back. I was back the next working day and put the minor things right but the cheque had been stopped.
> I am a bathroom fitter and on completing the en-suite refurb got a cheque off the customer, all was well. I got a text off the customer to say they had found snags and would I go back. I was back the next working day and put the minor things right but the cheque had been stopped.
You could go to small claims and win payment for the full amount of the cheque plus costs. By and large, the reason why the cheque was stopped is completely irrelevant.
The customer would have the right to get you to fix the work, but that's a separate issue.
In reply to Nutkey: I was going to say pretty much the same, I think legally once the cheque has been handed over they don't have any right to cancel it.
M.
M.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Hi Phil
The main thing that would concern me is the cheque being stopped without any consultation with you. It may well just be that they want to make sure that they get their moneys worth and feel that you would leave them in the lurch.
At this stage I would be putting the faults right, providing they are related to the job in question, and not making too much fuss about it. To me it is all part of the service and having a happy customer. It would only become a problem if they didn't pay you for several months and kept calling you back on non-related problems.
On the subject of recommendations. verbal recommendations are great but only if they give rise to good work. Being recommended for doing a good job is better than being recommended for being cheap, that only leads to low paid work. I am not saying charge a lot, but have a sense of your own worth and the realistic costs of a job (which I am sure you have)
Hi Phil
The main thing that would concern me is the cheque being stopped without any consultation with you. It may well just be that they want to make sure that they get their moneys worth and feel that you would leave them in the lurch.
At this stage I would be putting the faults right, providing they are related to the job in question, and not making too much fuss about it. To me it is all part of the service and having a happy customer. It would only become a problem if they didn't pay you for several months and kept calling you back on non-related problems.
On the subject of recommendations. verbal recommendations are great but only if they give rise to good work. Being recommended for doing a good job is better than being recommended for being cheap, that only leads to low paid work. I am not saying charge a lot, but have a sense of your own worth and the realistic costs of a job (which I am sure you have)
In reply to Phill Mitch: I have been on the other side of this. New bathroom with 100% of the money on satisfactory completion of the work.
The guys turned up and did the work but the toilet took at least 2 flushes to clear, it was okay when tested with toilet roll but as soon as any waste was added it failed to clear.
They came back and altered the angle of the waste pipe and it was a bit better but still only worked on 1 flush about 20% of the time.
Fortunately I had insisted that the builder supplied everything so after refusing to pay he changed the pan at his cost and all was fine so I paid in full.
He was not a happy bunny though, his supplier would only change the pan as a warranty if one of their engineers could inspect it in situ and they could not get to us for a month.
He asked for payment of 90% untill it was sorted but I pointed out his contract that he wanted me to sign said 100% on satisfactory completion and I had no faith in his supplier coming through on account of them sending totally the wrong items 3 times in a row (we never did get the correct soft door closers).
The guys turned up and did the work but the toilet took at least 2 flushes to clear, it was okay when tested with toilet roll but as soon as any waste was added it failed to clear.
They came back and altered the angle of the waste pipe and it was a bit better but still only worked on 1 flush about 20% of the time.
Fortunately I had insisted that the builder supplied everything so after refusing to pay he changed the pan at his cost and all was fine so I paid in full.
He was not a happy bunny though, his supplier would only change the pan as a warranty if one of their engineers could inspect it in situ and they could not get to us for a month.
He asked for payment of 90% untill it was sorted but I pointed out his contract that he wanted me to sign said 100% on satisfactory completion and I had no faith in his supplier coming through on account of them sending totally the wrong items 3 times in a row (we never did get the correct soft door closers).
In reply to Phill Mitch: The moral of my story is never fit anything that someone else has supplied.
On a related note a few years back a customer of mine begged me to install a machine that they had someone else overhaul.
I agreed because they are a very good customer and the machine failed in just under 9 hours.
The guys that overhauled it blamed my installation and I obviously blamed the guys that overhauled it.
Many many months of sleepless nights and lots of engineers reports later the fault was traced back to a bearing being 1 thousandth of an inch different on the pitch of the taper from the original manufacturer specifications.
The result of all that was that I was not held liable for the 250k replacement costs.
That was the last time I installed anything that I had either not rebuilt my self or I am not a factory agent for.
On a related note a few years back a customer of mine begged me to install a machine that they had someone else overhaul.
I agreed because they are a very good customer and the machine failed in just under 9 hours.
The guys that overhauled it blamed my installation and I obviously blamed the guys that overhauled it.
Many many months of sleepless nights and lots of engineers reports later the fault was traced back to a bearing being 1 thousandth of an inch different on the pitch of the taper from the original manufacturer specifications.
The result of all that was that I was not held liable for the 250k replacement costs.
That was the last time I installed anything that I had either not rebuilt my self or I am not a factory agent for.
In reply to Phill Mitch: Thanks for all advice, i was sure I would be put to rights on here.
Hold my tongue and press on. Also never fit B&Q stuff the customer has paid through the nose for and can't belive it's trash.
I am going tomorow so we will see!
Cheers.
Hold my tongue and press on. Also never fit B&Q stuff the customer has paid through the nose for and can't belive it's trash.
I am going tomorow so we will see!
Cheers.
In reply to browndog33: No, my bells remian un-rung. Sorry
In reply to Lukeva: How much experience do you have as a tradesman/ small business owner working within the construction industry? In the real world most tradesman work for a dayrate/ wage and don't actually earn a 'profit' at all, to offer customers a 10% retainer for 6-12 months could be the difference between the business surviving or not. Also keeping track of multiple outstanding retainers and actually administering their recovery adds more to the workload of the already overworked tradesman/ small business owner and offers the customer another opportunity to not pay the full price of the job thus my (hard learnt) reasoning why it is always better to get money in ASAP.
In reply to browndog33: I am a partner running a small and successful architectural firm, so, enough thank you.
Furthermore, I’ve sufficient experience of your patronising ‘real world’ rhetoric to know I want no more. We disagreed on whether the OP should suggest 90% payment now, that is all- deal with it!
I'm too busy to further debate with you, it was not my intention and apologise to the OP.
Furthermore, I’ve sufficient experience of your patronising ‘real world’ rhetoric to know I want no more. We disagreed on whether the OP should suggest 90% payment now, that is all- deal with it!
I'm too busy to further debate with you, it was not my intention and apologise to the OP.
Philll,
I sympathize with you mate. I'm a Sparky and get asked to fit all sorts of junk.
I have a set of terms and conditions that I send out with my quote if it's over £500. I bought these on the internet to get the correct legal wording. I've adapted them to say any items supplied by Mr Client is their responsibility. If it goes wrong they have to take it back, replace it etc and all extra fitting time is chargeable. I know it's difficult but you have protect yourself.
I’ve had one person who didn’t agree with my T&C so I made a polite refusal and left them alone.
It's all well and good what people say about word of mouth etc, but the fact is you can't rely on that for all of your work. There will always be jobs for people you don't know.
I'd state you case saying what you will do to make good and any other failure will have to be paid for.
Good luck Mate.
I sympathize with you mate. I'm a Sparky and get asked to fit all sorts of junk.
I have a set of terms and conditions that I send out with my quote if it's over £500. I bought these on the internet to get the correct legal wording. I've adapted them to say any items supplied by Mr Client is their responsibility. If it goes wrong they have to take it back, replace it etc and all extra fitting time is chargeable. I know it's difficult but you have protect yourself.
I’ve had one person who didn’t agree with my T&C so I made a polite refusal and left them alone.
It's all well and good what people say about word of mouth etc, but the fact is you can't rely on that for all of your work. There will always be jobs for people you don't know.
I'd state you case saying what you will do to make good and any other failure will have to be paid for.
Good luck Mate.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I have fitted a few b&q bathrooms and they are a bit of a mare, which is true of any cheap bathroom fittings. I know of a local fitter that won't fit anything bought from the 'sheds' . Hope you get your money as you did the work.
> (In reply to Phill Mitch) Thanks for all advice, i was sure I would be put to rights on here.
> Hold my tongue and press on. Also never fit B&Q stuff the customer has paid through the nose for and can't belive it's trash.
> I am going tomorow so we will see!
> Cheers.
> Hold my tongue and press on. Also never fit B&Q stuff the customer has paid through the nose for and can't belive it's trash.
> I am going tomorow so we will see!
> Cheers.
I have fitted a few b&q bathrooms and they are a bit of a mare, which is true of any cheap bathroom fittings. I know of a local fitter that won't fit anything bought from the 'sheds' . Hope you get your money as you did the work.
In reply to PaulTanton: Thanks for your reply. I'd like to know what site you got your wording off. I'm thinking about incorporating it in my quotes in future.
In reply to Phill Mitch: You can buy cheap off the shelf contracts from simply docs website. If you want something a bit more bespoke see a guy called terms and conditions on UK business forums, he writes up T&C's for a living.
Mark.
Mark.
In reply to Phill Mitch:PS.. Simply docs also sell debt recovery letter templates etc too.
In reply to browndog33: ok thanks. That might come in handy!
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I may be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that stopping a cheque paid for services rendered may be illegal as it is tantemount to fraud. The client's remedy if he/she is unhappy with the standard of work should be through the normal civil channels, but stopping the cheque in such circumstances is a criminal act.
I may be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that stopping a cheque paid for services rendered may be illegal as it is tantemount to fraud. The client's remedy if he/she is unhappy with the standard of work should be through the normal civil channels, but stopping the cheque in such circumstances is a criminal act.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
If your self employed (business) then isn't there a 28-30 day pay window/invoice type thing going on?
So by law, you can expect payment up to that time, then they have to pay there after.? I know that I am not being paid at the moment as a contractor, so I put forward to the firm im contracted to is that by UK law, you cannot work without a contract, so it has to be written, or verbal. as they dont/wont offer a written contract, then my contract is based verbally. So when they didnt pay, Then thats classed as 'withholding wages' classed as a 100% reduction, as such breaking the law.
So if you have 'verbally' agreed a payment with them, and they dont, they are in fact breaking the law, whether they are a business or a private client.
I would certainly use a 'debt recovery' and stop all works immediately. As after service repairs will be just that. They pay for the work you have done, then any issues you can sort it out, how do you know if they didnt cause the problems?
good luck
If your self employed (business) then isn't there a 28-30 day pay window/invoice type thing going on?
So by law, you can expect payment up to that time, then they have to pay there after.? I know that I am not being paid at the moment as a contractor, so I put forward to the firm im contracted to is that by UK law, you cannot work without a contract, so it has to be written, or verbal. as they dont/wont offer a written contract, then my contract is based verbally. So when they didnt pay, Then thats classed as 'withholding wages' classed as a 100% reduction, as such breaking the law.
So if you have 'verbally' agreed a payment with them, and they dont, they are in fact breaking the law, whether they are a business or a private client.
I would certainly use a 'debt recovery' and stop all works immediately. As after service repairs will be just that. They pay for the work you have done, then any issues you can sort it out, how do you know if they didnt cause the problems?
good luck
In reply to El-Mariachi:I have been to view the "problems" they are very minor and not things I would even call problematic. The customer said he is not prepaired to pay me the agreed amount, his wife is acting like I have just sh!t on her pillow. I am waiting to hear how much discount they expect, if it's a couple of hundred I will let my problem blow away with the wind. If it's much more then I think legal letters will be forced upon them. I do feel at the moment that I am on the right side of the law. Thanks.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Sounds like they want to keep you on a string for as long as they can and probably think if they can draw the episode out you will accept in order to finally get paid and get away from the job.
No advice but I wish you luck and suggest you hang in there a little longer, but don't let them take the piss until Christmas
Sounds like they want to keep you on a string for as long as they can and probably think if they can draw the episode out you will accept in order to finally get paid and get away from the job.
No advice but I wish you luck and suggest you hang in there a little longer, but don't let them take the piss until Christmas
In reply to Phill Mitch:
If it is more than a couple of hundred and you are looking at legal as the only recourse there can be no more satisfying outcome than going and getting your £350 worth of materials back with a crowbar and scraper! Some people really ask for it
> (In reply to El-Mariachi)I have been to view the "problems" they are very minor and not things I would even call problematic. The customer said he is not prepaired to pay me the agreed amount, his wife is acting like I have just sh!t on her pillow. I am waiting to hear how much discount they expect, if it's a couple of hundred I will let my problem blow away with the wind. If it's much more then I think legal letters will be forced upon them. I do feel at the moment that I am on the right side of the law. Thanks.
If it is more than a couple of hundred and you are looking at legal as the only recourse there can be no more satisfying outcome than going and getting your £350 worth of materials back with a crowbar and scraper! Some people really ask for it
In reply to Phill Mitch: you being the expert could just go round and offer in a little fix to ensure if you don't get some form of payment before completing it would be totally unuseable for a very long time. You must be getting close to that kind of scenario now. Fair is fair is paying.
In reply to Phill Mitch: If it looks like payment isn't forth coming it may be a good idea to start taking gathering evidence for a small claims court hearing. Start by taking pictures of the job and its so called defects (with customer present), also start to correspond with the customer via written means on important subjects so as to have a 'paper trail' that could be used in court if need be. The customer will pick up on your change of stance and realise things are getting serious and hopefully this will further prompt said customer for payment.
Mark.
Mark.
Just to put a bit of perspective on the other side about this. A couple of years ago I asked someone to fit some kitchen floor tiles for me. He came in did half the job and then said he had other work to do and would come back later to finish.
I stupidly paid him for the work he'd done to date. He never returned, refused to answer my calls and eventually posted the a letter though the door saying it wasn't worth his time to complete.
I got someone else to complete the job which eneded up costing more as they had to rip up half his uncompleted work
I would now NEVER pay until a job was 100% complete.
I stupidly paid him for the work he'd done to date. He never returned, refused to answer my calls and eventually posted the a letter though the door saying it wasn't worth his time to complete.
I got someone else to complete the job which eneded up costing more as they had to rip up half his uncompleted work
I would now NEVER pay until a job was 100% complete.
In reply to woolsack:
"If it is more than a couple of hundred and you are looking at legal as the only recourse there can be no more satisfying outcome than going and getting your £350 worth of materials back with a crowbar and scraper! Some people really ask for it"
I know of someone who removed a porch from the front of a property because the owner had refused to pay.
They made sure not to damage the rest of the property but took back all the windows and doors, along with the roof and the majority of the brickwork.
Probably not the recommended first approach to problem solving.
"If it is more than a couple of hundred and you are looking at legal as the only recourse there can be no more satisfying outcome than going and getting your £350 worth of materials back with a crowbar and scraper! Some people really ask for it"
I know of someone who removed a porch from the front of a property because the owner had refused to pay.
They made sure not to damage the rest of the property but took back all the windows and doors, along with the roof and the majority of the brickwork.
Probably not the recommended first approach to problem solving.
In reply to Phill Mitch: I sent a letter to the customer this week detailing the times and dates of proceedings, thought if I knock off a couple of hundred pounds it would be cheaper and easier than legal action. Got a cheque 2 days later. Thanks for all your replys and advice it helped me a great deal in sorting ouy my line of action.
In reply to Phill Mitch: Glad you got paid mate. Yep my experience is that SOME customers will do anything to NOT pay the agreed amount..
Mark.
Mark.
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