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Hi guys
I started projecting Infernal Din at The Cuttings on Saturday and had begun to make some decent links. Unfortunately on my final go of the day I was pulling through the top crux and about to go for the good crimp by the last bolt before the anchor (hold is roughly where the red circle is at http://imgur.com/O3uGGSr ) when it pulled away in my hand. Took me totally by surprise at it seemed completely solid and I had no reason to expect it would go.
I've had a look at this third crux (which I find the hardest) and can no longer do it from the rope. The hold that came away had a very helpful indentation that I could get my fingers behind that made swinging out onto it possible. There's now very little purchase and I feel it has made this move considerably harder. My guess is the route will have become 7c.
Good news: I have the hold, it's in-tact and fits snugly back onto the wall. Images available at http://imgur.com/3Az4aV3,fh3N0c9#0
What are the options and ethics here? If it is technically feasible I would like to glue this hold back in place but have not done this before and will at the very least need some advice and/or help doing so. Most likely I will be back in Portland on the 29&30 of this month.
thanks, Lewis
I started projecting Infernal Din at The Cuttings on Saturday and had begun to make some decent links. Unfortunately on my final go of the day I was pulling through the top crux and about to go for the good crimp by the last bolt before the anchor (hold is roughly where the red circle is at http://imgur.com/O3uGGSr ) when it pulled away in my hand. Took me totally by surprise at it seemed completely solid and I had no reason to expect it would go.
I've had a look at this third crux (which I find the hardest) and can no longer do it from the rope. The hold that came away had a very helpful indentation that I could get my fingers behind that made swinging out onto it possible. There's now very little purchase and I feel it has made this move considerably harder. My guess is the route will have become 7c.
Good news: I have the hold, it's in-tact and fits snugly back onto the wall. Images available at http://imgur.com/3Az4aV3,fh3N0c9#0
What are the options and ethics here? If it is technically feasible I would like to glue this hold back in place but have not done this before and will at the very least need some advice and/or help doing so. Most likely I will be back in Portland on the 29&30 of this month.
thanks, Lewis
In reply to lewiz:
I don't really know which crucial hold by the last bolt this would be? Was it from the crack?
Your red circle picture doesn't look near the last bolt but the one before
(I am also working this route)
As for fixing it back, I wouldn't know about that.
I don't really know which crucial hold by the last bolt this would be? Was it from the crack?
Your red circle picture doesn't look near the last bolt but the one before
(I am also working this route)
As for fixing it back, I wouldn't know about that.
In reply to lewiz:
Oh I think I know the hold. If so, that is important! I'm not convinced about fixing it back, and think it should just be climbed with worse hold.
I've been told by a few people holds have been lost on the lower cruxes since they I'd it, and they didn't need fixing back.
Oh I think I know the hold. If so, that is important! I'm not convinced about fixing it back, and think it should just be climbed with worse hold.
I've been told by a few people holds have been lost on the lower cruxes since they I'd it, and they didn't need fixing back.
In reply to Tommyads:
Definitely a key hold. I'm in two minds about it now... like I mentioned before I think it makes the route significantly harder but perhaps there's more of a challenge.
The first two cruxes were fine once you have a good sequence, which may prove to be the difference as I can't figure out what to do now. Perhaps it will just become a (much) harder boulder problem at the end of a 7b+ line?
Out of curiosity will you be checking it out any time soon? If it's before the 29/30 weekend I'd be keen to get your feedback.
cheers, Lewis
Definitely a key hold. I'm in two minds about it now... like I mentioned before I think it makes the route significantly harder but perhaps there's more of a challenge.
The first two cruxes were fine once you have a good sequence, which may prove to be the difference as I can't figure out what to do now. Perhaps it will just become a (much) harder boulder problem at the end of a 7b+ line?
Out of curiosity will you be checking it out any time soon? If it's before the 29/30 weekend I'd be keen to get your feedback.
cheers, Lewis
In reply to lewiz:
Why not ask Pete? He did the FA.
I'm always in two minds about these things. Generally I just think grit your teeth and climb harder. But if a route is a classic at the grade (which Infernal Din is) and it gets really harder (say a grade harder) then you think gluing a hold back on again preserves it as doable at that grade for (relatively) lots of people.
Obviously the nature of Portland rock means that often the disappearance of even a single hold can make a big difference. Want Out was once the softest of F7bs - not any more! Rusty Chublock (the most failed on of the harder routes at The Cuttings?), given F7b in a couple of guidebooks, was worth F7c even 10 years ago. And I think something else has come off since, making it even harder.
Many people do Hall of Mirrors as their only F7c. If something crucial came off that, it would seem a bit mean to deprive them of it...
But why not ask Pete?
Mick
Why not ask Pete? He did the FA.
I'm always in two minds about these things. Generally I just think grit your teeth and climb harder. But if a route is a classic at the grade (which Infernal Din is) and it gets really harder (say a grade harder) then you think gluing a hold back on again preserves it as doable at that grade for (relatively) lots of people.
Obviously the nature of Portland rock means that often the disappearance of even a single hold can make a big difference. Want Out was once the softest of F7bs - not any more! Rusty Chublock (the most failed on of the harder routes at The Cuttings?), given F7b in a couple of guidebooks, was worth F7c even 10 years ago. And I think something else has come off since, making it even harder.
Many people do Hall of Mirrors as their only F7c. If something crucial came off that, it would seem a bit mean to deprive them of it...
But why not ask Pete?
Mick
In reply to lewiz:
I am in two minds about this. I know exactly the bit of hold you mean (I spent long enough hanging on a rope on that crux!). I think it will probably go without - if you are too short to reach the incut bit of the crack from the good footholds, then you have to basically get stood in the big pocked using the pinch and a gaston on the bad bit of the crack anyway - so if there is still something to grab once you have got a foot in the big pocket then I suspect it will still go using the shorties beta at more or less the same grade (probably hard 7b+ or 7c) - I will try to check it out when I next get back down there, if I can still remember how to do it.
It would be a shame to lose the route, it is a local classic (and it was my first UK 7b+!) - so my vote is that if the loss of the hold changes the route sufficiently that it becomes unbalanced (eg., the top crux becomes V7 or 8 off the rope, as opposed to V5? as it was before) then it should be glued back on.
I am in two minds about this. I know exactly the bit of hold you mean (I spent long enough hanging on a rope on that crux!). I think it will probably go without - if you are too short to reach the incut bit of the crack from the good footholds, then you have to basically get stood in the big pocked using the pinch and a gaston on the bad bit of the crack anyway - so if there is still something to grab once you have got a foot in the big pocket then I suspect it will still go using the shorties beta at more or less the same grade (probably hard 7b+ or 7c) - I will try to check it out when I next get back down there, if I can still remember how to do it.
It would be a shame to lose the route, it is a local classic (and it was my first UK 7b+!) - so my vote is that if the loss of the hold changes the route sufficiently that it becomes unbalanced (eg., the top crux becomes V7 or 8 off the rope, as opposed to V5? as it was before) then it should be glued back on.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Hi Mick,
That's a very good point and I'm not sure why I didn't already think of it. I'm going to wait and see what Tommyads thinks after he takes a look today. It was the very end of my session so perhaps I'm overestimating the added difficulty. Once I have his feedback we can ask Pete then
cheers, Lewis
Hi Mick,
That's a very good point and I'm not sure why I didn't already think of it. I'm going to wait and see what Tommyads thinks after he takes a look today. It was the very end of my session so perhaps I'm overestimating the added difficulty. Once I have his feedback we can ask Pete then
cheers, Lewis
In reply to Quiddity:
Ouch! The shorty beta might work but for non-shorties it will be very bunched up and also difficult.
I was hoping it would be my first UK 7b+ as well and I'm pretty taken with the quality of the moves, etc.
Ouch! The shorty beta might work but for non-shorties it will be very bunched up and also difficult.
I was hoping it would be my first UK 7b+ as well and I'm pretty taken with the quality of the moves, etc.
In reply to Tommyads:
Perfect! I'll be very keen to get your feedback and we can take things from there.
Perfect! I'll be very keen to get your feedback and we can take things from there.
In reply to Mick Ward:
OFF TOPIC: Very interesting re: Want Out. I wondered if it had lost a hold! Tried it late last year having done several 7bs and getting bouldering level up to V6 - there was a move I couldn't do. My partner who was regularly climbing 7c at the same time also got stuck. I wondered if we were missing something - perhaps a crucial hold that had fallen off!
OFF TOPIC: Very interesting re: Want Out. I wondered if it had lost a hold! Tried it late last year having done several 7bs and getting bouldering level up to V6 - there was a move I couldn't do. My partner who was regularly climbing 7c at the same time also got stuck. I wondered if we were missing something - perhaps a crucial hold that had fallen off!
In reply to RockSteady:
I was trying Want Out many years ago with Rich White - he pulled off a biggish hold just before the move into the little ripples that you have to undercut, making it pumpier. I gave up on it then as it was hard enough when that hold was still there...
I was trying Want Out many years ago with Rich White - he pulled off a biggish hold just before the move into the little ripples that you have to undercut, making it pumpier. I gave up on it then as it was hard enough when that hold was still there...
In reply to RockSteady:
Agreed. I have done Want Out, Infernal Din and Hall of Mirrors. I found Want out the hardest of the 3!!
Agreed. I have done Want Out, Infernal Din and Hall of Mirrors. I found Want out the hardest of the 3!!
In reply to billb:
Very interesting. Want Out was very pumpy (sent last year) but I still feel that Infernal Din is harder. Interesting though
Very interesting. Want Out was very pumpy (sent last year) but I still feel that Infernal Din is harder. Interesting though
In reply to lewiz:
Quiddity is not exactly a shorty (5'10ish) though yes I imagine that beta would be very bunched if you are tall
FWIW I thought Want Out was hard at 7b but easier than Infernal Din which in turn is easier than HoM (which I've not yet done)...
Quiddity is not exactly a shorty (5'10ish) though yes I imagine that beta would be very bunched if you are tall
FWIW I thought Want Out was hard at 7b but easier than Infernal Din which in turn is easier than HoM (which I've not yet done)...
In reply to lewiz:
I did think it was difficult, for sure. Although weirdly not bunched for some reason. (FWIW I am 5'10 and not that flexible) Can give more beta on request!
Saw you on it at the weekend and you seemed to be making good headway especially through the bottom crux which was the crux of the route for me, so I am sure you would crack the top sequence with more time on it.
> Ouch! The shorty beta might work but for non-shorties it will be very bunched up and also difficult.
I did think it was difficult, for sure. Although weirdly not bunched for some reason. (FWIW I am 5'10 and not that flexible) Can give more beta on request!
Saw you on it at the weekend and you seemed to be making good headway especially through the bottom crux which was the crux of the route for me, so I am sure you would crack the top sequence with more time on it.
In reply to lewiz:
Hi all,
I have had a look today and now know exactly which hold you are on about.
I have taken a photo of where the hold came off. Hopefully someone who knows about gluing holds will find it useful?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=236577
In the picture you can see the scar in the centre of the image. From looking at the scar, I don't think it can be glued back, even if you wanted too (no experience in this but doesn't seem doable)
What I also noticed was a lower scar from another hold loss that looks similar. It looks a few seasons older. I don't know if this was ever considered "crucial" but it was never fixed back. You can see the scar on the same side of the crack, level with the carabiner.
Although it is not the hold I initially thought, it was an important hold for my sequence. (and probably everyone else)
For me, the first crux used to be the hardest, but the redpoint crux was the third.
Now, using what remains feels about as hard, or slightly harder than first crux. I think shorter people will not be affected as much by it (all I can say without being told of by the BETA Police!)
As for a new grade, I am not best to say but I would agree with 7c
Hi all,
I have had a look today and now know exactly which hold you are on about.
I have taken a photo of where the hold came off. Hopefully someone who knows about gluing holds will find it useful?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=236577
In the picture you can see the scar in the centre of the image. From looking at the scar, I don't think it can be glued back, even if you wanted too (no experience in this but doesn't seem doable)
What I also noticed was a lower scar from another hold loss that looks similar. It looks a few seasons older. I don't know if this was ever considered "crucial" but it was never fixed back. You can see the scar on the same side of the crack, level with the carabiner.
Although it is not the hold I initially thought, it was an important hold for my sequence. (and probably everyone else)
For me, the first crux used to be the hardest, but the redpoint crux was the third.
Now, using what remains feels about as hard, or slightly harder than first crux. I think shorter people will not be affected as much by it (all I can say without being told of by the BETA Police!)
As for a new grade, I am not best to say but I would agree with 7c
In reply to Mick Ward:
I had a look at Hall of Mirrors after and noticed that the block with all the holds important holds on has been glued in. Was this reinforced or replaced?
In the case of Hall of Mirrors I can see the route is ruined without this. But I don't think the same can be said for the hold loss on Infernal din.
Also, I would have thought it is easier to fix back or reinforce a block rather than a hold. And I can't see how you can fix the missing hold back on? Looking forward to be being proven wrong though!
> Many people do Hall of Mirrors as their only F7c. If something crucial came off that, it would seem a bit mean to deprive them of it...
I had a look at Hall of Mirrors after and noticed that the block with all the holds important holds on has been glued in. Was this reinforced or replaced?
In the case of Hall of Mirrors I can see the route is ruined without this. But I don't think the same can be said for the hold loss on Infernal din.
Also, I would have thought it is easier to fix back or reinforce a block rather than a hold. And I can't see how you can fix the missing hold back on? Looking forward to be being proven wrong though!
Post edited at 16:44
In reply to Tommyads:
Hi Tom, I don't know what's been done on Hall of Mirrors. I was lucky to do all of these routes back in the day when they were easier (just as well!) My feeling generally re disappearing holds is to consult with the first ascentionist and consider stuff on a route by route (and maybe hold by hold) basis, i.e. what seems best for the greater good.
Agreed, I'd have thought a block would be easier to stick back then a hold. But have never stuck anything back (I think!?) so don't know. Back in the day in The Peak though, there were characters who seemed able to stick back micro-crimps.
Hope The Cuttings wasn't too cold today. Went along around six and it was freezing - or I've got soft. Probably the latter.
Mick
Hi Tom, I don't know what's been done on Hall of Mirrors. I was lucky to do all of these routes back in the day when they were easier (just as well!) My feeling generally re disappearing holds is to consult with the first ascentionist and consider stuff on a route by route (and maybe hold by hold) basis, i.e. what seems best for the greater good.
Agreed, I'd have thought a block would be easier to stick back then a hold. But have never stuck anything back (I think!?) so don't know. Back in the day in The Peak though, there were characters who seemed able to stick back micro-crimps.
Hope The Cuttings wasn't too cold today. Went along around six and it was freezing - or I've got soft. Probably the latter.
Mick
In reply to Tommyads:
Cheers for going up and checking it out. Out of interest where you able to try the move on the shunt or are you just having a guess at 7c?
Cheers for going up and checking it out. Out of interest where you able to try the move on the shunt or are you just having a guess at 7c?
In reply to lewiz:
I was able to do the move on a shunt. It is defiantly much harder. The reason I say I am not best to grade is because I am not experienced enough at climbing these grades. I have only done 2 7b+ and never done a 7c. I would be surprised if this added difficulty doesn't increase the grade though.
I have sent you a message about your sequence because I am wondering if my lanky beta could be why I find it so hard without this hold.
I was able to do the move on a shunt. It is defiantly much harder. The reason I say I am not best to grade is because I am not experienced enough at climbing these grades. I have only done 2 7b+ and never done a 7c. I would be surprised if this added difficulty doesn't increase the grade though.
I have sent you a message about your sequence because I am wondering if my lanky beta could be why I find it so hard without this hold.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Maybe there's hope for the hold then. I thought It was ok today, a bit colder than it has been recently but that's the way I like it!
> Back in the day in The Peak though, there were characters who seemed able to stick back micro-crimps.
> Hope The Cuttings wasn't too cold today. Went along around six and it was freezing - or I've got soft. Probably the latter.
> Mick
Maybe there's hope for the hold then. I thought It was ok today, a bit colder than it has been recently but that's the way I like it!
Post edited at 22:49
In reply to Tommyads:
There are various 2 part glues which may do the job. The guys in the peak used to use an epoxy made by Sika, but even screwfix sells very strong 2 part glues (aimed for gluing bolts in) which may work?
There are various 2 part glues which may do the job. The guys in the peak used to use an epoxy made by Sika, but even screwfix sells very strong 2 part glues (aimed for gluing bolts in) which may work?
In reply to lewiz:
Ok I had a go on this again today. I think I underestimated how much has actually come off. It used to be that the crack had a bad bit and a good bit, you got the bad bit, got your feet up and then came over to the good bit. It seems that both the good and the bad bit are gone. I think most of the possible sequences through that bit are probably affected. I now agree that the route is quite a lot harder - I spent 20 mins or so trying to figure out a new sequence and didn't really get anywhere.
My vote might be to try to reattach it if you can find someone with the skills.
Re. The lower rock scar, I agree it looks like something has come off there, but there wasn't anything there in 2010.
Ok I had a go on this again today. I think I underestimated how much has actually come off. It used to be that the crack had a bad bit and a good bit, you got the bad bit, got your feet up and then came over to the good bit. It seems that both the good and the bad bit are gone. I think most of the possible sequences through that bit are probably affected. I now agree that the route is quite a lot harder - I spent 20 mins or so trying to figure out a new sequence and didn't really get anywhere.
My vote might be to try to reattach it if you can find someone with the skills.
Re. The lower rock scar, I agree it looks like something has come off there, but there wasn't anything there in 2010.
In reply to lewiz:
I climbed this route a few years ago, and really enjoyed it, and it is defiantly a route I would come back to do again. Having said that I would vote to leave the route as it is, rock changes all the time, sometimes it will make routes easier and sometimes harder.
If we start gluing bits back on it creates a grey area of what's acceptable. What about chipping to make an edge flatter if it was getting rounded, because its the only hold in the middle of a flat wall. You can't even decide only to do it on 'crucial' holds as some climbers have different sequences. Moreover if its that crucial then putting it back at anything other than the exact angle/position could change it. Safer not to put it back, and we can all try harder, who knows, could be a test-piece 7c
I climbed this route a few years ago, and really enjoyed it, and it is defiantly a route I would come back to do again. Having said that I would vote to leave the route as it is, rock changes all the time, sometimes it will make routes easier and sometimes harder.
If we start gluing bits back on it creates a grey area of what's acceptable. What about chipping to make an edge flatter if it was getting rounded, because its the only hold in the middle of a flat wall. You can't even decide only to do it on 'crucial' holds as some climbers have different sequences. Moreover if its that crucial then putting it back at anything other than the exact angle/position could change it. Safer not to put it back, and we can all try harder, who knows, could be a test-piece 7c
In reply to matt.ridgway:
Or a totally unbalanced one move wonder that no-one will want to do? Now OK, I've never climbed there and it's highly unlikely that I ever will and therefore I have absolutely zero say or influence, but I know exactly what I'd do - I'd Sika it back in place. Done well NOBODY would ever know... well apart from the whole world now!
No. It'll fit exactly back where it was.
> who knows, could be a test-piece 7c
Or a totally unbalanced one move wonder that no-one will want to do? Now OK, I've never climbed there and it's highly unlikely that I ever will and therefore I have absolutely zero say or influence, but I know exactly what I'd do - I'd Sika it back in place. Done well NOBODY would ever know... well apart from the whole world now!
> Moreover if its that crucial then putting it back at anything other than the exact angle/position could change it.
No. It'll fit exactly back where it was.
In reply to jon:
Jon, it's slightly daunting that, from afar, you seem to have hit the bulls-eye, so to speak!
I doubt it would be a worthwhile testpiece 7c; I suspect it would be a knackered 7b+. There's already a lovely 7c to the right (Hall or Mirrors) and a shit 7c to the left (Rusty Chubblock).
[To Matt] Am totally against chipping. But gluing the odd hold back on, with consensus, seems a very different matter to chipping in secret.
Agree it's a grey area but grabbing the chain on Raindogs is a grey area too. I don't mind odd exceptions (a big of yin in yang and yang in yin?) provided it's deemed acceptable.
Would still solicit Pete's view though.
Mick
Jon, it's slightly daunting that, from afar, you seem to have hit the bulls-eye, so to speak!
I doubt it would be a worthwhile testpiece 7c; I suspect it would be a knackered 7b+. There's already a lovely 7c to the right (Hall or Mirrors) and a shit 7c to the left (Rusty Chubblock).
[To Matt] Am totally against chipping. But gluing the odd hold back on, with consensus, seems a very different matter to chipping in secret.
Agree it's a grey area but grabbing the chain on Raindogs is a grey area too. I don't mind odd exceptions (a big of yin in yang and yang in yin?) provided it's deemed acceptable.
Would still solicit Pete's view though.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
I think for stronger climbers, It would still be a nice route. Would it be helpful to get someone who makes quick work of 7c's to actually do the route in it's current state and give an opinion? They might say it's still a quality route, just harder?
I know I'm not going to tick the route any time soon, but I don't mind coming back when I'm stronger to do it. I wouldn't feel right pushing for the hold to be glued back just so I can have the route back at my level. Is it not more important that the quality of the route is kept rather than the difficulty?
I think for stronger climbers, It would still be a nice route. Would it be helpful to get someone who makes quick work of 7c's to actually do the route in it's current state and give an opinion? They might say it's still a quality route, just harder?
I know I'm not going to tick the route any time soon, but I don't mind coming back when I'm stronger to do it. I wouldn't feel right pushing for the hold to be glued back just so I can have the route back at my level. Is it not more important that the quality of the route is kept rather than the difficulty?
In reply to Tommyads:
I'd agree with that. The question is how the route compares quality-wise, with and without the hold?
Maybe best to keep the hold but leave things as they are for a bit, see what more people think. And find a few people who can get up 7c quickly. (Sadly, not me any more. 7c in an hour is a very distant memory!)
Anyway, enough of all that. We should start making visits to the Wye. Tons to go at up there, tons!
Mick
> Is it not more important that the quality of the route is kept rather than the difficulty?
I'd agree with that. The question is how the route compares quality-wise, with and without the hold?
Maybe best to keep the hold but leave things as they are for a bit, see what more people think. And find a few people who can get up 7c quickly. (Sadly, not me any more. 7c in an hour is a very distant memory!)
Anyway, enough of all that. We should start making visits to the Wye. Tons to go at up there, tons!
Mick
In reply to lewiz:
I've been back this weekend and after some time came up with a new sequence for the upper crux. I'm about 188cm and the new sequence involves a very reachy move with some tenuous footwork but it goes and quite consistently once I figured it out. I don't think the move became much harder, certainly not enough to push up the grade.
Still no idea how anybody without a monster reach will manage it though.
I've been back this weekend and after some time came up with a new sequence for the upper crux. I'm about 188cm and the new sequence involves a very reachy move with some tenuous footwork but it goes and quite consistently once I figured it out. I don't think the move became much harder, certainly not enough to push up the grade.
Still no idea how anybody without a monster reach will manage it though.
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