UKC

There is a scheme starting here in mid Wales to try and conserve our last few red squirrels (maybe 100 left?) which will be extinct in 5-10 years. I seem to have volunteered as a co-ordinator for my area and will be getting the grey squirrel trapping underway in the valley. Grey squirrel reduction is core to the conservation plan.

Hoping to use volunteer community action to save the reds, by copying the successful grey squirrel trapping work done in Cumbria and on Anglesey. Is there anyone from those areas with first hand experience of how the scheme went and how communities responded? Do you consider the results worth the effort (seeing reds instead of greys) and are the communities benefiting? Any other tips you can pass on?

I'm already surprised at the local negative reactions of some, mainly based on not wanting to have anything to do with killing a grey squirrel - which I can understand on moral grounds for someone who doesn't kill any animals (thinks: vegetarian, vegan, religious grounds), but otherwise can't get my head round anybody NOT wanting to conserve our last reds - even at a price. So also interested in the views of anyone that would be against humane trapping/killing of greys.

Let's keep this civilized!

In reply to Moley:

I think its a worthwhile project but it will be a lot of hard work which will have to be maintained for a considerable length of time. They to the success of such projects which have controversial elements is to keep the community informed at all times. Sometimes people just want their concerns to be listened to rather than ignored. If you can get some of the objectors on your side, after they can be effective champions for these projects.

As an aside I had a look at the Vincent Trust website just a second ago. It seems that there has been sightings of pine martens across the centre of Wales. Research in the Republic of Ireland has shown that Pine Martens preferentially prey on Grey rather than Red Squirrels, because they are bigger and less agile. This has allowed Red Squirrels to make a come back in areas where they had become extinct. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to see if they are Pine Martens in your area and if there is an overlap with a red squirrel population, treat these as a core areas for the conservation project.

In reply to Moley:

I suggest that looking at the hedgehog debate in Uist might be helpful. It identified many of the things you are referring to.

In reply to Moley:

I've been helping Aline from the Vincent trust with red and polecat surveys (she's employed on the MISE project), she's also trying to find pine martin evidence, there are probably some about but not seen and very, very few.

Heard about the Irish situation (pine martins and greys/reds) at a talk from Vincent trust, so that is something to hope for the future, have all the native small mammals back in balance. The scientists hope that in years we shall find the answer to eradicate the greys, but the thinking is that by then if we have no reds left and have lost all the genetic variations - what's the point. So we are looking to conserve our last reds and buy some time for the future. There has been a conservation plan for some years but only now are our communities becoming involved and funding available for traps etc.

http://www.welshwildlife.org/living-landscapes/the-mid-wales-red-squirrel-p...

In reply to Moley:

Just a question. The website says the project has 5 key objectives, two of them being:

Objective 1: To systematically survey a large geographic area for squirrels using a live capture trapping programme.

Objective 2:As part of this programme to remove grey squirrels from the red squirrels key areas and buffer zones.

Is it necessary to kill, rather than relocate, the greys?

In reply to Skyfall:


Once trapped it's illegal to release them as they are an invasive species. There have however been prosecutions when the method of despatch of trapped greys has been less than humane.

In reply to Skyfall:

The relocation of greys is a relevant question that many will ask. But it is in fact a crime to release captive grey squirrels back into the wild, as they are classed as an alien invasive species. So this isn't an option as we are live trapping (then humane dispatch).

In reply to Ffion Blethyn and Moley:

Thanks, just wondered.

I love red squirrels so would support this anyway.

In reply to Moley:

According to my daughter in Canada, she knew of one Pine Marten who prefered her flock of chickens to the local grey squirrels! The resultant carnage after it got in the chicken coop was not a pretty sight. It was humanely trapped and released many miles away from human habitation - though her neighbours wondered why she went to so much bother. A 12 bore would have been just as effective. (Martens are prolific over there and considered a pest).

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


I think this is why pine martens were persecuted to near extinction in UK. When I mentioned them to my sister up the valley, the first thing she said was "Is this another animal that will be eating our chickens?". Probably yes!

In reply to Moley:

Perhaps these people can help.
http://www.rsne.org.uk/

In reply to mockerkin:

A lady attached to them came down from Cumbria to help give the talks, she was very good and inspiring with her views on bringing communities together.

Theres is the kind of format we are attempting to follow in the long term.

In reply to Moley:



Unfortunately there was an article in a Cumbrian paper last week in which the red squirrel protection people said that they were curtailing their work as they couldn't afford the rangers.

In reply to Moley:

We (unfortunately) don't have any reds round here but I do my bit to keep on top of the grey population round where I shoot.

In reply to Moley:
We have both Red and Grey here (Merseyside) The greys dominate the southern towns, parks and the small pockets of native deciduous woodland (South Liverpool to South Sefton). The Reds dominate the non native coniferous woodland along the coast (Crosby/Great Crosby to Ainsdale).

I love seeing both, the Greys for their sheer determination to crack every puzzle you set for them in the garden. The Reds for just how cute they look.

The issues I am seeing around here is that efforts to help increase the red population is 1) labour intensive as the non native plantations have to be intensively managed 2) The increase of this type of habitat is impacting other local/native wildlife 3) Before the crash of the Red population in this area Red numbers were kept artificially high by official agencies (national trust) feeding the Squirrels. There wasn't enough natural food in the pockets of woodland to support them.

We humans have caused one hell of an in balance and I am not sure what the answer is. Take point 3 above if we had greater national habitat Reds wouldn't have to live in isolated pockets nor would they have to be artificially fed. The Action I am seeing to help Reds seems to be local and not national as an example the woodland habitat of Merseyside with Red populations is not linked to the woodland habitat of West Lancashire, which also has a small pocket of Reds (huge dual carriageway in the way), this Pocket of Reds in Lancashire can't expand through Lancashire in to Cheshire etc again to due to isolated packets of useable habitat. The Reds simply can't spread out.

A few years ago the Merseyside population of Reds crashed due to the squirrel pox virus (90% decline). The positive is that the population is now starting to bounce back and researchers have found that about 10% of the current Merseyside reds have recovered naturally from the disease. It has been found that a number of them have antibodies which shows that they may have survived the disease before. Before this discovery it was thought that all infected Reds died. Hopefully, this pocket of squirrels might be the one's to build up the immunity and safe guard the Reds future (from the disease that is not loss of habitat)

Until we fix the habitats I feel we will always be on the verge of losing the Reds in England and Wales. The issue is I don't see the political will to fix it other than token gestures. Just look at the results of the recent review of Wild flower meadows in England we have now lost 98-99%.

In reply to Moley:
Could you perhaps provide tasty grey squirrel recipes as part of your community engagement?

Something along the lines of them being an invasive pest species, with in depth ecological reasons why grey squirrels are undesirable, and also about greys being nice to eat, ie please help us help the red squirrels, and have a nice dinner?

Maybe not...

In reply to Timmd:

No, I like it!

The idea that is, I've not tried Squirrel.

Is it like a nutty rabbit?

Recipes please.

In reply to Moley:

I didn't even know such a scheme existed until I was chatting with Grasmere relatives about how many red squirrels I've seen lately up there (hardly saw a red in last few decades). So it has had brilliant results in my view. Think they have a few 'hotlines' you can ring when you spot a grey - someone pops round and sorts it.

Community seems to respond very well.

In reply to mick taylor:

I guess I take the presence of red squirrels around the house for granted and have never given much thought to the idea that they could be endangered. The Mrs positively hates the cute little critters as they often decimate the nut trees ! I'm quite happy with the situation; it's a small price to pay to have such an attractive little resident.

In reply to ewar woowar:

http://honest-food.net/2013/10/24/braised-squirrel-aurora-recipe/

In reply to Alan M:

You mention lack of political will to fix the problem. I quite agree, but this applies to just about any countryside problem that involves killing animals. It's a vote loser, so better to sit on the fence and do nothing - or pass the buck, but the problem doesn't go away on it's own.

Finding funding is hard, because someone has to put their name to the project, I think they have been working on this for years and only just got it off the ground to employ one full time officer/coordinator for 5 years and money for traps. Should have been done 10 years ago, but we can only do our best.

In reply to Timmd:

I had a word with the local pub and he's all for "squirrel pie" (or whatever recipe), there's also a local small brewery that already does bottles of Red Squirrel beer.

Todays Special: Local grey squirrel pie + a bottle of local red squirrel beer.......has to be a winner!

I've eaten quite a few greys, nice - taste like chicken

In reply to Moley:

I tried to have a red squirrel conversation once but I just couldn't keep up

In reply to Moley:



I totally agree but reducing grey numbers is only part of the issue. with out habitat expansion and improvement across a greater area the Reds will always be struggling. Using Merseyside as an example 20 years ago the numbers of Reds on Merseyside was huge, literally could walk in to the woods, hold your hand out and reds would be dropping out of trees to take nuts out of your hands. Now, there's probably a fraction of that left.

The political will I am talking about is more in relation to fixing habitats to allow the Reds to increase and expand their range naturally. Who know's maybe if we had more joined up habitat those high numbers of reds on Merseyside 20 years ago would have spread out increasing the numbers in West Lancashire and beyond.

What we have now is still an isolated pocket of Reds, that will be hit again by the squirrel pox virus further reducing numbers. Surely by restricting reds to small pockets of woodland is adding to the problem? I am not sure the Greys reduction scheme works long term as they are literally running down the streets here.

I am sceptical of wildlife and habitat protection laws and will in this country. I simply don't believe beyond token gestures we have the will or desire to fix it. If you want depressing read the State of Nature report!!!!

In reply to Alan M:

Generally agreed that there is no chance of reds spreading without grey reduction, although there is room for habitat improvement, the reds would be very happy in the broadleaved areas and do much better there, but the greys outperform them so they are driven out.

Ironically our last remaining reds are in mature commercial forestry blocks (planted in 60's), not because they do better there, but because the greys don't go there (so much) as the food source of small seeds, pine cones etc. is not enough to support greys. But the reds only just hold on there and slowly die out if a few greys start to intrude + the pox virus. Although broadleaf provides better food for reds, the forestry commission (NRW here)are asked not to plant any broadleaf in their blocks as this encourages greys to move into the territory.

I think these maps of grey distribution since 1945 tell the story, it's not hard to see where it will end up without action.
http://rsst.org.uk/about-us/faqs/

In reply to Moley:

The only time I've eaten squirrel it was actively unpleasant, and I'll pretty much give anything furry a go at least once. (ooer, missus.)

In reply to Moley:

There is encouraging signs (very early days) from Merseyside that the reds may be building up immunity to the Squirrel Pox virus.  Research last year found that approx 10% of the Merseyside Reds are now showing antibodies that may indicate that they have been infected in the past and recovered thus aiding their recovery after the most recent bout of the disease.  I believe researchers from Liverpool University are currently investigating to see whether or not this immunity is passed on through the generations (fingers crossed).    If it is found to be the case then it’s a massive positive.  I believe that before this discovery it was thought that all reds died once infected.

Also, the most recent survey of Red squirrels in this area shows that numbers are close approaching the pre-2008 population crash estimation after an (85-90% decrease).   I would guess if the squirrels are building up a resistance to the pox virus then the next bout of the disease will not be as severe? (Assumption made).

In reply to Alan M:

That's very encouraging news all round, they are aiming to reintroduce reds in Cornwall and there is now a captive breeding program at Trewithen towards that aim.
http://www.trewithengardens.co.uk/wildlife/red-squirrels/

If Merseyside reds gain some form of immunity then I guess some would be ideal for that programme one day? But I'm no scientist.

In reply to Moley:

I know fingers crossed but it gets us back to the lack of linked up habitat question. If the Merseyside reds do develop immunity they cant spread out to bolster their cousins in West Lancashire and beyond naturally!!

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/22/red-squirrels-poxvirus-r...