This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
The Rockfax Guide App is nearing completion but how is it going to work, and what will it offer that is different to a conventional printed guidebook.Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=6687
In reply to UKC Gear:
Will the app be definitive, along the lines of the ukc logbooks or selective like the (majority) of the printed guidebooks?
Will the app be definitive, along the lines of the ukc logbooks or selective like the (majority) of the printed guidebooks?
In reply to deacondeacon:
Initially the App will have what all the data we can get hold of. In most cases this consists of the book data for all our publications post 2007ish - El Chorro and Northern England may causes us a few problems, and Peak Bouldering is definitely not going to be in the first release. We are adding any update information we know about to the App versions, which is quite a lot in Lofoten and Peak Limestone, plus we have added extra crags dropped from other books like those featured in Costa Blanca Xtra MiniGuide.
As things progress though it will be easy to add more and more crags, and we have quite a number of half-finished projects that we can release in bits onto the App over the next year to so.
We also intend to allow access from the app to the UKC logbook data so that you will be able to see entries including voting and recent ascent notes for every route in the UKC Logbook system. This may not be available in version 1 though. For routes which are in the App guide repertoire, these will allow access to the UKC logbook entry straight away for photos, votes, comments and to allow you to tick them and upload photos at the crag.
Alan
> Will the app be definitive, along the lines of the ukc logbooks or selective like the (majority) of the printed guidebooks?
Initially the App will have what all the data we can get hold of. In most cases this consists of the book data for all our publications post 2007ish - El Chorro and Northern England may causes us a few problems, and Peak Bouldering is definitely not going to be in the first release. We are adding any update information we know about to the App versions, which is quite a lot in Lofoten and Peak Limestone, plus we have added extra crags dropped from other books like those featured in Costa Blanca Xtra MiniGuide.
As things progress though it will be easy to add more and more crags, and we have quite a number of half-finished projects that we can release in bits onto the App over the next year to so.
We also intend to allow access from the app to the UKC logbook data so that you will be able to see entries including voting and recent ascent notes for every route in the UKC Logbook system. This may not be available in version 1 though. For routes which are in the App guide repertoire, these will allow access to the UKC logbook entry straight away for photos, votes, comments and to allow you to tick them and upload photos at the crag.
Alan
In reply to UKC Gear:
This looks great, looking forward to having a play.
- Camera and guide can be carried up a route, meaning a significant weight savings
- Instant guide updates for new routes, access etc.
- never leaving the guide at home.
Bad things:
- The penalty for dropping your guidebook just got pricier!
- Reading the screen in bright sunlight. damn hard on my phone, even at full brightness.
This looks great, looking forward to having a play.
- Camera and guide can be carried up a route, meaning a significant weight savings
- Instant guide updates for new routes, access etc.
- never leaving the guide at home.
Bad things:
- The penalty for dropping your guidebook just got pricier!
- Reading the screen in bright sunlight. damn hard on my phone, even at full brightness.
In reply to Max 6787:
Doubt if it will be instant to be honest, but more rapid than 8 years between editions.
True, although many people already carry their phone, especially on long routes. We are working on a special phone carrier system to help.
This is currently a drawback and I anticipate that people will dive under their jackets to get shade to read the screens in bright light. The bigger screen iPhone 6 is very welcome though and I strongly suspect that screen technology will move this on pretty rapidly over the next few years.
Alan
> - Instant guide updates for new routes, access etc.
Doubt if it will be instant to be honest, but more rapid than 8 years between editions.
> - The penalty for dropping your guidebook just got pricier!
True, although many people already carry their phone, especially on long routes. We are working on a special phone carrier system to help.
> - Reading the screen in bright sunlight. damn hard on my phone, even at full brightness.
This is currently a drawback and I anticipate that people will dive under their jackets to get shade to read the screens in bright light. The bigger screen iPhone 6 is very welcome though and I strongly suspect that screen technology will move this on pretty rapidly over the next few years.
Alan
Post edited at 10:48
In reply to UKC Gear:
Will the crag data be transferable between iPhone and Android versions? If I change my phone I don't want to have to buy another set of guidebooks.
Will the crag data be transferable between iPhone and Android versions? If I change my phone I don't want to have to buy another set of guidebooks.
In reply to Howard J:
Hmm, good question. I don't think this is possible though since they are sold from completely separate places. If you change from Mac to PC you would need a new PC version of your software and wouldn't even get a previous purchase reduction I don't think.
Alan
> Will the crag data be transferable between iPhone and Android versions? If I change my phone I don't want to have to buy another set of guidebooks.
Hmm, good question. I don't think this is possible though since they are sold from completely separate places. If you change from Mac to PC you would need a new PC version of your software and wouldn't even get a previous purchase reduction I don't think.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
You're selling data though, really, not software? If I buy a book from Amazon and then buy a new kindle I can transfer the purchases over.
If I couldn't guarantee that the data moved from device to device with me I wouldn't consider it!
You're selling data though, really, not software? If I buy a book from Amazon and then buy a new kindle I can transfer the purchases over.
If I couldn't guarantee that the data moved from device to device with me I wouldn't consider it!
In reply to AJM:
I think a better analogy would be if you buy a book for a Kindle, then buy a Kobo, you can't transfer it over.
Or buy a TomTom app for iOS - you can't transfer that over to your Android either.
It simply isn't workable anyway. We have no way of knowing who has even bought an App version since that information is retained by the App Stores.
Alan
> You're selling data though, really, not software? If I buy a book from Amazon and then buy a new kindle I can transfer the purchases over.
I think a better analogy would be if you buy a book for a Kindle, then buy a Kobo, you can't transfer it over.
Or buy a TomTom app for iOS - you can't transfer that over to your Android either.
It simply isn't workable anyway. We have no way of knowing who has even bought an App version since that information is retained by the App Stores.
Alan
Post edited at 11:12
In reply to AJM:
I don't think you've ever been able to transfer an app from Apple to Android have you? Would be great if you could!
I don't think you've ever been able to transfer an app from Apple to Android have you? Would be great if you could!
As AJM says the app is free - it's about transferring crag data not the actual app. You could presumably keep a record on your server somehow of who has paid to download what crag, and let them download it again for free. Otherwise you're aiming for a repeat of the itinerant problem where copy protection inconveniences only the honest user.
Post edited at 11:19
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Maybe you've designed your apps in a way that, at this point, makes it unworkable. But clearly, Amazon produce kindle apps for all sorts of mobile programs and somehow keep track of who owns what, so it's not technically impossible.
Either way, without that feature I can't see it working for me - I'm not a dedicated enough fan of any mobile platform that I'm prepared to add potentially hundreds of pounds of extra lock-in to dissuade me from changing.
Maybe you've designed your apps in a way that, at this point, makes it unworkable. But clearly, Amazon produce kindle apps for all sorts of mobile programs and somehow keep track of who owns what, so it's not technically impossible.
Either way, without that feature I can't see it working for me - I'm not a dedicated enough fan of any mobile platform that I'm prepared to add potentially hundreds of pounds of extra lock-in to dissuade me from changing.
In reply to James Rushforth:
No, because they're different platforms, but what Alan is trying to sell me is a book, which is essentially data not code.
If I've paid for an electronic copy of one of his Rockfax guides, he is then telling me that if I want to change from apple to android or vice versa, that I have to pay him more money in order to maintain my access to a guidebook I've already paid good money for.
If, as a counter example, I'd bought a copy of one of his books on my kindle through Amazon (hypothetically), Amazon would keep track of me having bought it and if I bought a new kindle or put the app on a new tablet or something it would give me the option to download my existing purchases onto that new tablet.
No, because they're different platforms, but what Alan is trying to sell me is a book, which is essentially data not code.
If I've paid for an electronic copy of one of his Rockfax guides, he is then telling me that if I want to change from apple to android or vice versa, that I have to pay him more money in order to maintain my access to a guidebook I've already paid good money for.
If, as a counter example, I'd bought a copy of one of his books on my kindle through Amazon (hypothetically), Amazon would keep track of me having bought it and if I bought a new kindle or put the app on a new tablet or something it would give me the option to download my existing purchases onto that new tablet.
Post edited at 11:29
In reply to Stone Muppet:
Actually this is precisely what we can't do. The App system is completely locked in and we don't get any access to who downloads what. We just dump our new App versions on the Cloud and then the rest is done via the iTunes store.
Alan
> As AJM says the app is free - it's about transferring crag data not the actual app. You could presumably keep a record on your server somehow of who has paid to download what crag, and let them download it again for free. Otherwise you're aiming for a repeat of the itinerant problem where copy protection inconveniences only the honest user.
Actually this is precisely what we can't do. The App system is completely locked in and we don't get any access to who downloads what. We just dump our new App versions on the Cloud and then the rest is done via the iTunes store.
Alan
In reply to AJM:
It is the only way everyone has designed their Apps apart from massive companies like Amazon who own a huge server where they can sell data for their Kindle Apps. This isn't possible for small businesses without huge costs being incurred. This is what In-App purchases are in the vast majority of other Apps.
Ok, that is fair enough but you are talking about the mobile phone system generally here, this is nothing specific to the Rockfax App. All the SatNav Apps work in this wa.
Alan
> Maybe you've designed your apps in a way that, at this point, makes it unworkable. But clearly, Amazon produce kindle apps for all sorts of mobile programs and somehow keep track of who owns what, so it's not technically impossible.
It is the only way everyone has designed their Apps apart from massive companies like Amazon who own a huge server where they can sell data for their Kindle Apps. This isn't possible for small businesses without huge costs being incurred. This is what In-App purchases are in the vast majority of other Apps.
> Either way, without that feature I can't see it working for me - I'm not a dedicated enough fan of any mobile platform that I'm prepared to add potentially hundreds of pounds of extra lock-in to dissuade me from changing.
Ok, that is fair enough but you are talking about the mobile phone system generally here, this is nothing specific to the Rockfax App. All the SatNav Apps work in this wa.
Alan
Post edited at 12:03
In reply to AJM:
No I am not trying to sell you a book in this case. It is a different thing that people will use in a different way. We are selling individual crags, and link-ins to Logbooks, and navigation systems to show you where you are and full directories of useful things like local shops and walls, and a continuously dateable system. Yo have to get away from thinking that it is just another version of the book.
Alan
> No, because they're different platforms, but what Alan is trying to sell me is a book, which is essentially data not code.
No I am not trying to sell you a book in this case. It is a different thing that people will use in a different way. We are selling individual crags, and link-ins to Logbooks, and navigation systems to show you where you are and full directories of useful things like local shops and walls, and a continuously dateable system. Yo have to get away from thinking that it is just another version of the book.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
You can call it something different if you choose. Since I can do most of the other stuff already, albeit in a less integrated way, I'd consider most of the money I would be spending to be buying access to the data, hence why I see it more like a book than you would probably want me to.
On further reflection, though, I could see it being useful for some individual crags. There are a few of your guides where only a crag or two actually inspires out of the selection you have included, and since the outlay would be far smaller I'd be less concerned about not actually having unrestricted access to the data. EDiT - still prefer a pdf miniguide though
You can call it something different if you choose. Since I can do most of the other stuff already, albeit in a less integrated way, I'd consider most of the money I would be spending to be buying access to the data, hence why I see it more like a book than you would probably want me to.
On further reflection, though, I could see it being useful for some individual crags. There are a few of your guides where only a crag or two actually inspires out of the selection you have included, and since the outlay would be far smaller I'd be less concerned about not actually having unrestricted access to the data. EDiT - still prefer a pdf miniguide though
Post edited at 12:13
In reply to UKC Gear:
Use a web-based 'app', instead of a native device app, with the option of storing content on the user's device for offline use. This way all purchases would be device agnostic and ensure that users can access their guidebooks regardless of device and / or platform.
You would still have access to the device's hardware functionality such as GPS etc.
An alternative would be a true interactive publication (not scaled PDFs) which can be purchased in similar ways to Wired mag. In fact Wired is a good example of how interactive a publication can get. Again, these are device agnostic and can be transferred from device to device. Another plus would be that you could use your existing InDesign files the basis of these with the added interactive elements.
Use a web-based 'app', instead of a native device app, with the option of storing content on the user's device for offline use. This way all purchases would be device agnostic and ensure that users can access their guidebooks regardless of device and / or platform.
You would still have access to the device's hardware functionality such as GPS etc.
An alternative would be a true interactive publication (not scaled PDFs) which can be purchased in similar ways to Wired mag. In fact Wired is a good example of how interactive a publication can get. Again, these are device agnostic and can be transferred from device to device. Another plus would be that you could use your existing InDesign files the basis of these with the added interactive elements.
Post edited at 13:01
In reply to AJM:
Just had a chat with our developer and he explain the system better to me.
On the Kindle platform you get an eBook, not an App. This is reasonably protected by the Kindle system but it is a far less sophisticated thing. You pay Amazon and control the payments through the Amazon web site. So when you buy a book on your iPad, it just goes through the web site. For this you give Amazon your credit card details and set up an account.
The App store is more protected. You don't give Rockfax your Credit Card details to buy a Rockfax Guide App, you give them to Apple (or Google Play, but I'll refer to Apple from now on). Apple then control what you have bought and have access to. They never give that information to us. This enables you to have a single purchase through your Apple account on more than one Apple device, but obviously not on an Android device.
This is the way the system works for the majority of Apps. The purchase is account specific - you can change your phone but only to one which accepts the same account. Android obviously is more flexible in this respect since there are loads of different Android phones, but Apple devices are miles better to develop for.
As I said above though, you need to think of these things as different. It is not just the way you use them but also what you buy. Buy a guidebook and you get a physical product that will wear out, is heavy and you can lose. Buy an App and it won't wear out, doesn't weight anything, and you only lose it if you change your phone system. Buy a book and it is up to date to the day it is published (hopefully). Buy an App and it can update whenever required. Buy a book and you get something that you can put on the shelf with your ticks in which will eventually be superseded by a newer version (probably). Buy an App and you get your ticks displayed on a much more versatile log book system and ported to new versions.
However, App versions will have a life span. This is what we mean by linking the books to an App version. When we publish a new book, we will also release a new App version with all the new updated photos, and changes in the book that we have between editions. This will be a new purchase. The old App version won't stop working, but it will no longer be supported on the Cloud so you will eventually lose it when you upgrade your phone. This isn't ideal but it is the only way we can operate without the business going bust in the long run. Other climbing App producers are already starting to sell their data by subscription time - i.e. you buy this guide for three years. We looked at this but we prefer the new major version route. Ignore this - just been told that Apple will soon support versioning, hence you should be able to download old Ap guides even after a new version is produced.
Alan
Just had a chat with our developer and he explain the system better to me.
On the Kindle platform you get an eBook, not an App. This is reasonably protected by the Kindle system but it is a far less sophisticated thing. You pay Amazon and control the payments through the Amazon web site. So when you buy a book on your iPad, it just goes through the web site. For this you give Amazon your credit card details and set up an account.
The App store is more protected. You don't give Rockfax your Credit Card details to buy a Rockfax Guide App, you give them to Apple (or Google Play, but I'll refer to Apple from now on). Apple then control what you have bought and have access to. They never give that information to us. This enables you to have a single purchase through your Apple account on more than one Apple device, but obviously not on an Android device.
This is the way the system works for the majority of Apps. The purchase is account specific - you can change your phone but only to one which accepts the same account. Android obviously is more flexible in this respect since there are loads of different Android phones, but Apple devices are miles better to develop for.
As I said above though, you need to think of these things as different. It is not just the way you use them but also what you buy. Buy a guidebook and you get a physical product that will wear out, is heavy and you can lose. Buy an App and it won't wear out, doesn't weight anything, and you only lose it if you change your phone system. Buy a book and it is up to date to the day it is published (hopefully). Buy an App and it can update whenever required. Buy a book and you get something that you can put on the shelf with your ticks in which will eventually be superseded by a newer version (probably). Buy an App and you get your ticks displayed on a much more versatile log book system and ported to new versions.
However, App versions will have a life span. This is what we mean by linking the books to an App version. When we publish a new book, we will also release a new App version with all the new updated photos, and changes in the book that we have between editions. This will be a new purchase. The old App version won't stop working, but it will no longer be supported on the Cloud so you will eventually lose it when you upgrade your phone. This isn't ideal but it is the only way we can operate without the business going bust in the long run. Other climbing App producers are already starting to sell their data by subscription time - i.e. you buy this guide for three years. We looked at this but we prefer the new major version route. Ignore this - just been told that Apple will soon support versioning, hence you should be able to download old Ap guides even after a new version is produced.
Alan
Post edited at 13:24
In reply to UKC Gear:
This looks awesome! Especially the link in with the UKC logbook and the map integration. On iOS I would have thought the App Store will remember which guides you've purchased, so if you delete them from your device you'll be able to download them again later for free. That's how most of these things seem to work. It remembers it all against your Apple account, so as long as you're logged in with that same account - e.g. On an iPad - you'll get the same free access to previously purchased guides.
This looks awesome! Especially the link in with the UKC logbook and the map integration. On iOS I would have thought the App Store will remember which guides you've purchased, so if you delete them from your device you'll be able to download them again later for free. That's how most of these things seem to work. It remembers it all against your Apple account, so as long as you're logged in with that same account - e.g. On an iPad - you'll get the same free access to previously purchased guides.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Which is approximately every 18 / 24 months for a lot of users although I appreciate that if you stay 'on-brand / on-OS' then you won't lose the data. This still might be a blocker for some users, though.
> and you only lose it if you change your phone system.
Which is approximately every 18 / 24 months for a lot of users although I appreciate that if you stay 'on-brand / on-OS' then you won't lose the data. This still might be a blocker for some users, though.
In reply to UKC Gear:
Brilliant! Can't wait to see this.
A real technical and UI challenge - impressive to pull of when you do it!
Brilliant! Can't wait to see this.
A real technical and UI challenge - impressive to pull of when you do it!
In reply to stevemarkperry:
We looked at doing a web-based App since this saves massively on development costs - just one platform - however the processing power on phones was nowhere near fast enough to run the App. Our code has been massively streamlined to give the performance required which is just impossible with web-based Apps.
Alan
> Use a web-based 'app', instead of a native device app, with the option of storing content on the user's device for offline use. This way all purchases would be device agnostic and ensure that users can access their guidebooks regardless of device and / or platform.
> You would still have access to the device's hardware functionality such as GPS etc.
We looked at doing a web-based App since this saves massively on development costs - just one platform - however the processing power on phones was nowhere near fast enough to run the App. Our code has been massively streamlined to give the performance required which is just impossible with web-based Apps.
Alan
Post edited at 13:18
In reply to Abu777:
This is how it works - all the crag data is stored on the server and you download it when you need it, then delete it when you need a bit of space.
Regarding my comments on versioning above:
Our developer has just told me that Apple have started supporting Versioning now, hence it is likely that you will be able to download older versions of App guides even after we update it to a new version, although we aren't sure if this applies to app data.
Alan
> This looks awesome! Especially the link in with the UKC logbook and the map integration. On iOS I would have thought the App Store will remember which guides you've purchased, so if you delete them from your device you'll be able to download them again later for free. That's how most of these things seem to work. It remembers it all against your Apple account, so as long as you're logged in with that same account - e.g. On an iPad - you'll get the same free access to previously purchased guides.
This is how it works - all the crag data is stored on the server and you download it when you need it, then delete it when you need a bit of space.
Regarding my comments on versioning above:
Our developer has just told me that Apple have started supporting Versioning now, hence it is likely that you will be able to download older versions of App guides even after we update it to a new version, although we aren't sure if this applies to app data.
Alan
Post edited at 13:34
In reply to stevemarkperry:
For me it means that I'd stick with paper guidebooks for major areas that I go to quite a lot, but might get the app and download a crag or two if I'm in an area as a one-off.
And yeah, you're right about web-based apps. Facebook is probably a better analogy than Kindle - whatever device I access Facebook from, it logs me into the same account and gives me access to the same data. In the case of Facebook, that's mostly amusing pictures of cats that my friends have posted, but in the case of a Rockfax app it could sign you into a rockfax.com account and give you access to crag guides that you've previously paid for or the option to buy more.
It's probably more faff to set up than the basic native version, and I'm aware that this is probably the wrong time to suggest a completely different way of building the app, but it seems like the way that things are most likely to end up in the long run.
> Which is approximately every 18 / 24 months for a lot of users although I appreciate that if you stay 'on-brand / on-OS' then you won't lose the data. This still might be a blocker for some users, though.
For me it means that I'd stick with paper guidebooks for major areas that I go to quite a lot, but might get the app and download a crag or two if I'm in an area as a one-off.
And yeah, you're right about web-based apps. Facebook is probably a better analogy than Kindle - whatever device I access Facebook from, it logs me into the same account and gives me access to the same data. In the case of Facebook, that's mostly amusing pictures of cats that my friends have posted, but in the case of a Rockfax app it could sign you into a rockfax.com account and give you access to crag guides that you've previously paid for or the option to buy more.
It's probably more faff to set up than the basic native version, and I'm aware that this is probably the wrong time to suggest a completely different way of building the app, but it seems like the way that things are most likely to end up in the long run.
Post edited at 13:27
In reply to Ramblin dave:
The problem with that though is that I could let my friends know my log-in details and they could get free access. Admittedly not much different to lending someone a guidebook, but not ideal for rockfax.
The problem with that though is that I could let my friends know my log-in details and they could get free access. Admittedly not much different to lending someone a guidebook, but not ideal for rockfax.
In reply to UKC Gear:
"But a smartphone offers more than that. Using the GPS location capability, the phone will be able to link with a navigation app to guide you to a crag, it will show you crags, shops, walls and accommodation near by. It will also enable you to link with your UKC logbook. On set up you will be able to download your logbook ticks and synchronise with routes on the phone"
Wow! Sounds better than actual climbing!
"But a smartphone offers more than that. Using the GPS location capability, the phone will be able to link with a navigation app to guide you to a crag, it will show you crags, shops, walls and accommodation near by. It will also enable you to link with your UKC logbook. On set up you will be able to download your logbook ticks and synchronise with routes on the phone"
Wow! Sounds better than actual climbing!
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I don't think telling your (potential) customers how they must view your product is necessarily good marketing...
As a software developer, I can fully understand the technical reasons why you might prefer to used google/apple systems for the content delivery, but as a (potential) customer it's a big letdown. Browsing a crag at home on my iPad and then using my android phone at the crag is a very appealing use case.
Time will tell whether it will be a big issue; I'd suspect not. A lot of people are happy enough on one platform or the other. It will certainly hold me back though - to what extent I can't tell at this point - which is a shame. The idea is very good, and the implementation looks promising; the logbook integration particularly.
> Yo have to get away from thinking that it is just another version of the book.
I don't think telling your (potential) customers how they must view your product is necessarily good marketing...
As a software developer, I can fully understand the technical reasons why you might prefer to used google/apple systems for the content delivery, but as a (potential) customer it's a big letdown. Browsing a crag at home on my iPad and then using my android phone at the crag is a very appealing use case.
Time will tell whether it will be a big issue; I'd suspect not. A lot of people are happy enough on one platform or the other. It will certainly hold me back though - to what extent I can't tell at this point - which is a shame. The idea is very good, and the implementation looks promising; the logbook integration particularly.
Post edited at 14:19
In reply to gav:
I hadn't thought of this draw back. For me this would be potentially more annoying than the phone changing issue (I don't really mind what phone I have, so although slightly annoying, I wouldn't mind the sacrifice). Having to buy different versions of the guide (probably hard copy and electronic respectively) for planning a trip (as I don't really want to browse crags/routes on my phone in my house/at work) as opposed to at the crag seems a bit excessive.
However, having said this, I have a windows phone so....
I hadn't thought of this draw back. For me this would be potentially more annoying than the phone changing issue (I don't really mind what phone I have, so although slightly annoying, I wouldn't mind the sacrifice). Having to buy different versions of the guide (probably hard copy and electronic respectively) for planning a trip (as I don't really want to browse crags/routes on my phone in my house/at work) as opposed to at the crag seems a bit excessive.
However, having said this, I have a windows phone so....
In reply to UKC Gear:
Whats next ? Barcodes at the bottom of routes, so you can just scan them into your logbook.
Whats next ? Barcodes at the bottom of routes, so you can just scan them into your logbook.
In reply to deacondeacon:
If you lend someone a guidebook, you haven't got it any more.
Alan
> Admittedly not much different to lending someone a guidebook, ...
If you lend someone a guidebook, you haven't got it any more.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
If you wanted to carry purchases between Apple and Android you could try to do it by logging in to the app using a Rockfax account. When you log in on the other platform using you rockfax account you could then add the previously purchased content for free
If you wanted to carry purchases between Apple and Android you could try to do it by logging in to the app using a Rockfax account. When you log in on the other platform using you rockfax account you could then add the previously purchased content for free
In reply to gav:
Well I am not very good at marketing. It was more a reflection of the journey we have been through.
There are inevitably going to be some problems owing to the conflicting systems and the way they have been developed. I can't really see when we will be developing a Windows phone system, but not for a very long time I suspect.
> I don't think telling your (potential) customers how they must view your product is necessarily good marketing...
Well I am not very good at marketing. It was more a reflection of the journey we have been through.
There are inevitably going to be some problems owing to the conflicting systems and the way they have been developed. I can't really see when we will be developing a Windows phone system, but not for a very long time I suspect.
In reply to steveliput:
It doesn't work like that. Your account is with Apple or Google Play, not with Rockfax.
Alan
> If you wanted to carry purchases between Apple and Android you could try to do it by logging in to the app using a Rockfax account. When you log in on the other platform using you rockfax account you could then add the previously purchased content for free
It doesn't work like that. Your account is with Apple or Google Play, not with Rockfax.
Alan
In reply to pauldr:
At the risk of upsetting the publishers, what's next will be that as people get used to using their mobiles as guidebooks, and data continues to get cheaper and more coverage, free online crowd sourced resources like 27crags will become more popular and eventually corner the market (as they'll offer the advantages of instant updating and cross platform support people are querying above, as well as the financial incentive) and printed guides will slowly die out.
> Whats next ? Barcodes at the bottom of routes, so you can just scan them into your logbook.
At the risk of upsetting the publishers, what's next will be that as people get used to using their mobiles as guidebooks, and data continues to get cheaper and more coverage, free online crowd sourced resources like 27crags will become more popular and eventually corner the market (as they'll offer the advantages of instant updating and cross platform support people are querying above, as well as the financial incentive) and printed guides will slowly die out.
In reply to Ciro:
Interesting, but it's hard to see how the actions of the collective will result in as good a product as a properly produced guide, with routes checked and editoral thought given to layout and broader content.
It would be pretty souless if everyone just got the means to go and climb the routes without learning a bit more about their first ascents and the history of development in the area.
Interesting, but it's hard to see how the actions of the collective will result in as good a product as a properly produced guide, with routes checked and editoral thought given to layout and broader content.
It would be pretty souless if everyone just got the means to go and climb the routes without learning a bit more about their first ascents and the history of development in the area.
In reply to Max 6787:
There's a certain irony to saying that in a thread about a new Rockfax product! I don't think their guides are soulless - there's a lot of personality to the writing that their detractors tend to ignore - but they do give history and culture fairly short shrift...
And to be honest, I don't see online things as being necessarily soulless - they often seem to be maintained by local enthusiasts and to offer at least as much scope for history, culture, in-jokes and self-indulgent ramblings as print guides do!
Edit: look at the javu site, for instance...
> Interesting, but it's hard to see how the actions of the collective will result in as good a product as a properly produced guide, with routes checked and editoral thought given to layout and broader content.
> It would be pretty souless if everyone just got the means to go and climb the routes without learning a bit more about their first ascents and the history of development in the area.
There's a certain irony to saying that in a thread about a new Rockfax product! I don't think their guides are soulless - there's a lot of personality to the writing that their detractors tend to ignore - but they do give history and culture fairly short shrift...
And to be honest, I don't see online things as being necessarily soulless - they often seem to be maintained by local enthusiasts and to offer at least as much scope for history, culture, in-jokes and self-indulgent ramblings as print guides do!
Edit: look at the javu site, for instance...
Post edited at 17:21
In reply to Max 6787:
They will take a while to catch up so a paid app is going to be a premium product for quite a while yet, but I don't see why crowd sourcing would be inherently less capable of producing a good product.
Local activists can add the history of existing routes and development, and in future when they finis bolting a new sport route or opening a new sector, upload a new photo or add a line to an existing one and bob's your uncle.
Find a dodgy bolt or a nesting bird when you're climbing? Flag it up and a provisional warning is placed on the topo for all to see until a local moderator checks it out.
I could be totally wrong of course, and I do think it'll be a long time before print guidebooks disappear as a book in your hand offers a different experience to a phone... I just think a lot of the functionality of an app is already in our own hands and once we cotton on to it that'll be the way things go.
> Interesting, but it's hard to see how the actions of the collective will result in as good a product as a properly produced guide, with routes checked and editoral thought given to layout and broader content.
> It would be pretty souless if everyone just got the means to go and climb the routes without learning a bit more about their first ascents and the history of development in the area.
They will take a while to catch up so a paid app is going to be a premium product for quite a while yet, but I don't see why crowd sourcing would be inherently less capable of producing a good product.
Local activists can add the history of existing routes and development, and in future when they finis bolting a new sport route or opening a new sector, upload a new photo or add a line to an existing one and bob's your uncle.
Find a dodgy bolt or a nesting bird when you're climbing? Flag it up and a provisional warning is placed on the topo for all to see until a local moderator checks it out.
I could be totally wrong of course, and I do think it'll be a long time before print guidebooks disappear as a book in your hand offers a different experience to a phone... I just think a lot of the functionality of an app is already in our own hands and once we cotton on to it that'll be the way things go.
In reply to Ciro:
Which is exactly what you will be able to do with this App via the UKC Logbook system.
The UKC logbook system being one of the largest crowd-sourced climbing-related operations out there.
Alan
> Find a dodgy bolt or a nesting bird when you're climbing? Flag it up and a provisional warning is placed on the topo for all to see until a local moderator checks it out.
Which is exactly what you will be able to do with this App via the UKC Logbook system.
The UKC logbook system being one of the largest crowd-sourced climbing-related operations out there.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Cool, will there be functionality to update topo pictures and stuff instantaneously as well?
> Which is exactly what you will be able to do with this App via the UKC Logbook system.
> The UKC logbook system being one of the largest crowd-sourced climbing-related operations out there.
> Alan
Cool, will there be functionality to update topo pictures and stuff instantaneously as well?
In reply to Ciro:
Not in Version 1 but it is something we have discussed and have ideas on.
Alan
> Cool, will there be functionality to update topo pictures and stuff instantaneously as well?
Not in Version 1 but it is something we have discussed and have ideas on.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Will you be producing a "beta" version as the technology improves?
A guide to all the moves and gear; sidepull out left, rock 3 behind the flake, shorties may need to use the intermediate crimp.
Add an alarm for if the climber wanders off route.
New routes only accepted to the database with supporting smartphone gps track as evidence, if you dither for more than 10 mins on a move, it will be noted.
A future app could feedback how many smartphone users are at a specific location, could be very useful to avoid the crowds.
Will you be producing a "beta" version as the technology improves?
A guide to all the moves and gear; sidepull out left, rock 3 behind the flake, shorties may need to use the intermediate crimp.
Add an alarm for if the climber wanders off route.
New routes only accepted to the database with supporting smartphone gps track as evidence, if you dither for more than 10 mins on a move, it will be noted.
A future app could feedback how many smartphone users are at a specific location, could be very useful to avoid the crowds.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Point taken about sites like javu. But I'm definitely not saying their guides are soulless! Yes on history compared to CC guides, but more accessible for it.
> There's a certain irony to saying that in a thread about a new Rockfax product! I don't think their guides are soulless - there's a lot of personality to the writing that their detractors tend to ignore - but they do give history and culture fairly
Point taken about sites like javu. But I'm definitely not saying their guides are soulless! Yes on history compared to CC guides, but more accessible for it.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Apps like Viewranger (OS maps, amongst others) are downloaded from the App Store or Google for free using your Apple/Google account, but then you input your Viewranger account details into the app and map content is downloaded directly to it from Viewranger servers. This has the double benefit that the content is transferrable between platforms, and Apple don't take their huge cut every time you buy data. Credit is added to your Viewranger account by logging onto their website and paying by card/PayPal.
Don't see any reason this model couldn't be adopted here, and you'd save a fortune in Apple royalties.
> It doesn't work like that. Your account is with Apple or Google Play, not with Rockfax.
> Alan
Apps like Viewranger (OS maps, amongst others) are downloaded from the App Store or Google for free using your Apple/Google account, but then you input your Viewranger account details into the app and map content is downloaded directly to it from Viewranger servers. This has the double benefit that the content is transferrable between platforms, and Apple don't take their huge cut every time you buy data. Credit is added to your Viewranger account by logging onto their website and paying by card/PayPal.
Don't see any reason this model couldn't be adopted here, and you'd save a fortune in Apple royalties.
In reply to matt_claydon:
Viewranger purchases on the phone do go through the App Stores, or at least it does on my phone.
Their other purchases made online are a bit weird. I am not sure what they are doing there since it seems that they don't get backed up to iTunes, and you need to manually copy them via your computer to get them between your devices. This looks like a bit of a security hole to me, plus you need to keep in mind that all you are in fact copying is a big image, not a bunch of associated data. Also, I don't think you can buy anything except the massive full country maps for about £80 or £250 - I might be wrong with this though. Certainly it appears to be a bit of a faff.
I'll look into it bit more closely though.
Alan
> Apps like Viewranger (OS maps, amongst others) are downloaded from the App Store or Google for free using your Apple/Google account, but then you input your Viewranger account details into the app and map content is downloaded directly to it from Viewranger servers. This has the double benefit that the content is transferrable between platforms, and Apple don't take their huge cut every time you buy data. Credit is added to your Viewranger account by logging onto their website and paying by card/PayPal.
Viewranger purchases on the phone do go through the App Stores, or at least it does on my phone.
Their other purchases made online are a bit weird. I am not sure what they are doing there since it seems that they don't get backed up to iTunes, and you need to manually copy them via your computer to get them between your devices. This looks like a bit of a security hole to me, plus you need to keep in mind that all you are in fact copying is a big image, not a bunch of associated data. Also, I don't think you can buy anything except the massive full country maps for about £80 or £250 - I might be wrong with this though. Certainly it appears to be a bit of a faff.
I'll look into it bit more closely though.
Alan
Post edited at 20:33
In reply to UKC Gear:
I do feel this will pass me by, being a little traditional in my climbing. I wonder if that will lead to information not being passed on to those who don't download the latest info/updates/warnings? Time will tell. My concern is that I tend to drop my mobile phone quite often anyway, something I've never done with a guidebook on a route. I wouldn't really want to drop a guidephone half way up a multipitch! Is there a physical app available, like a phone holder that can suspend off the front of a climbing helmet?
I also find books easier to read than phone screens as they don't require reading glasses in the same way! Tsk, age.
I do feel this will pass me by, being a little traditional in my climbing. I wonder if that will lead to information not being passed on to those who don't download the latest info/updates/warnings? Time will tell. My concern is that I tend to drop my mobile phone quite often anyway, something I've never done with a guidebook on a route. I wouldn't really want to drop a guidephone half way up a multipitch! Is there a physical app available, like a phone holder that can suspend off the front of a climbing helmet?
I also find books easier to read than phone screens as they don't require reading glasses in the same way! Tsk, age.
In reply to matt_claydon:
Ok, had a look into it and it is way more complicated than I thought. The reason that Viewranger uses the App stores as the fall-back system is because that is so much easier to implement.
We are talking about developing operating systems though and it could well be possible in the near future to have a method of transferring purchases more easily between different phones.
Alan
Ok, had a look into it and it is way more complicated than I thought. The reason that Viewranger uses the App stores as the fall-back system is because that is so much easier to implement.
We are talking about developing operating systems though and it could well be possible in the near future to have a method of transferring purchases more easily between different phones.
Alan
In reply to UKC Gear:
Great work guys, looks really good. Can you work on a time machine feature so we can roll back to a chosen epoch and only show the routes that had been climbed then.. like a step back in history with grades as they were given, vignettes and acres of unclimbed rock so that even us moderate climbers can still do new routes on our most popular crags
Great work guys, looks really good. Can you work on a time machine feature so we can roll back to a chosen epoch and only show the routes that had been climbed then.. like a step back in history with grades as they were given, vignettes and acres of unclimbed rock so that even us moderate climbers can still do new routes on our most popular crags
In reply to UKC Gear:
As has been pointed out the crag data won't be transferable between app platforms. This means that for anyone who switches mobile platforms the app may have limited value compared to actually buying a guidebook
As has been pointed out the crag data won't be transferable between app platforms. This means that for anyone who switches mobile platforms the app may have limited value compared to actually buying a guidebook
In reply to UKC Gear:
Sounds an excellent idea! Two questions:
1. Will you be able to cache logbook and particular crag data on the phone before you set off from home? Some of Portland has either no mobile signal, or you see 'Welcome to France Telecom'. I already try and use the UKC website at a crag to see which climbs I haven't done, and it's frustrating when the signal is crap.
2. In the future how about image recognition i.e. point the camera at a section of crag, and using the GPS and the Rockfax crag topos the phone tells you which route you're looking at?
Sounds an excellent idea! Two questions:
1. Will you be able to cache logbook and particular crag data on the phone before you set off from home? Some of Portland has either no mobile signal, or you see 'Welcome to France Telecom'. I already try and use the UKC website at a crag to see which climbs I haven't done, and it's frustrating when the signal is crap.
2. In the future how about image recognition i.e. point the camera at a section of crag, and using the GPS and the Rockfax crag topos the phone tells you which route you're looking at?
Post edited at 07:18
In reply to UKC Gear:
Two more questions:
3. I still don't understand why the cost of the data you have purchased can't be separated from the app delivery system. The apps can be provided free through Apple or Google Play. The app needs to authenticate you against the UKC servers in order to allow access to your logbook/wishlist/diary. In which case the UKC servers could then provide only the data for the crags/areas you have purchased, or simply deny the app access to the data (for crags/areas you haven't purchased) that is saved on Apple/Google servers. [I'm not clear where the app would download data from...]
4. When can we download our diary as e.g. csv files??
Two more questions:
3. I still don't understand why the cost of the data you have purchased can't be separated from the app delivery system. The apps can be provided free through Apple or Google Play. The app needs to authenticate you against the UKC servers in order to allow access to your logbook/wishlist/diary. In which case the UKC servers could then provide only the data for the crags/areas you have purchased, or simply deny the app access to the data (for crags/areas you haven't purchased) that is saved on Apple/Google servers. [I'm not clear where the app would download data from...]
4. When can we download our diary as e.g. csv files??
Post edited at 07:19
In reply to popebenedictus:
Having looked into this yesterday, we strongly suspect that there will be some method of switching data between platforms in the near-to-mid future.
Alan
> As has been pointed out the crag data won't be transferable between app platforms. This means that for anyone who switches mobile platforms the app may have limited value compared to actually buying a guidebook
Having looked into this yesterday, we strongly suspect that there will be some method of switching data between platforms in the near-to-mid future.
Alan
In reply to dereke12000:
Every crag you buy can be downloaded to your phone so you will never need a signal to use the App guide. This is explain d bait in the section 'The Crag Data - How Does it Work?' towards the bottom of the news report linked above.
That would be a complex solution to something which is probably not so much of a problem. GPS can get you to the buttress, then the photo and eye combination tend to work quite well. Having said that we have some ideas for getting people to the start of routes on big crags which we will hope to implement in future versions.
Alan
> 1. Will you be able to cache logbook and particular crag data on the phone before you set off from home? Some of Portland has either no mobile signal, or you see 'Welcome to France Telecom'. I already try and use the UKC website at a crag to see which climbs I haven't done, and it's frustrating when the signal is crap.
Every crag you buy can be downloaded to your phone so you will never need a signal to use the App guide. This is explain d bait in the section 'The Crag Data - How Does it Work?' towards the bottom of the news report linked above.
> 2. In the future how about image recognition i.e. point the camera at a section of crag, and using the GPS and the Rockfax crag topos the phone tells you which route you're looking at?
That would be a complex solution to something which is probably not so much of a problem. GPS can get you to the buttress, then the photo and eye combination tend to work quite well. Having said that we have some ideas for getting people to the start of routes on big crags which we will hope to implement in future versions.
Alan
In reply to dereke12000:
It all comes down to the payment system. If we delivered data from our own server then we would need to have our own payment system, and each time you wanted to buy a crag you would need to put your credit card details into the phone. Using the Apple Store payment is incredibly easy - click 'Buy Now' and put your password in - but we never find out who has bought what, hence the verification system you mention above couldn't work.
It is probably on the ToDo list.
Alan
> 3. I still don't understand why the cost of the data you have purchased can't be separated from the app delivery system. The apps can be provided free through Apple or Google Play. The app needs to authenticate you against the UKC servers in order to allow access to your logbook/wishlist/diary. In which case the UKC servers could then provide only the data for the crags/areas you have purchased, or simply deny the app access to the data (for crags/areas you haven't purchased) that is saved on Apple/Google servers. [I'm not clear where the app would download data from...]
It all comes down to the payment system. If we delivered data from our own server then we would need to have our own payment system, and each time you wanted to buy a crag you would need to put your credit card details into the phone. Using the Apple Store payment is incredibly easy - click 'Buy Now' and put your password in - but we never find out who has bought what, hence the verification system you mention above couldn't work.
> 4. When can we download our diary as e.g. csv files??
It is probably on the ToDo list.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
you can create a 2nd account with rockfax directly. Loads of games use this approach - for example candy crush
you can create a 2nd account with rockfax directly. Loads of games use this approach - for example candy crush
In reply to UKC Gear:
Will this be like when you purchase music in that you get the digital version instantly (mp3/app guide) and then the physical copy is sent out in the post (album/printed guide)?
I would also like to query when the .csv files will be available for the diary as I now have nearly 5 years of training recorded and it is a pain having to go through every few months and copy the data across to a spreadsheet manually (I do this as i really wouldn't want to lose the information!)
Will this be like when you purchase music in that you get the digital version instantly (mp3/app guide) and then the physical copy is sent out in the post (album/printed guide)?
I would also like to query when the .csv files will be available for the diary as I now have nearly 5 years of training recorded and it is a pain having to go through every few months and copy the data across to a spreadsheet manually (I do this as i really wouldn't want to lose the information!)
In reply to dereke12000:
Depends if you mean the actual diary or the logbook, but routes you've saved to your logbook can already be downloaded (Go to "My Logbook" then search the page for the text "Download all").
I'm curious what there is in the design and implementation (i.e. the User Interface) of the Rockfax application that differs from other guidebook applications that already exist such as the various offerings from thesend.co.uk ?
> 4. When can we download our diary as e.g. csv files??
Depends if you mean the actual diary or the logbook, but routes you've saved to your logbook can already be downloaded (Go to "My Logbook" then search the page for the text "Download all").
I'm curious what there is in the design and implementation (i.e. the User Interface) of the Rockfax application that differs from other guidebook applications that already exist such as the various offerings from thesend.co.uk ?
In reply to dereke12000:
Crikey - I don't think you realise how difficult that would be.
http://xkcd.com/1425/
> 2. In the future how about image recognition i.e. point the camera at a section of crag, and using the GPS and the Rockfax crag topos the phone tells you which route you're looking at?
Crikey - I don't think you realise how difficult that would be.
http://xkcd.com/1425/
In reply to steveliput:
It is certainly something we can look at. Candy Crush is a massive company though, and we are just a few guys (and one gal now). We have chosen the route we are going down since it seemed to be the easiest for us. As things progress we may well be able to develop different systems that allow for some of the things requested on this thread.
Alan
> you can create a 2nd account with rockfax directly. Loads of games use this approach - for example candy crush
It is certainly something we can look at. Candy Crush is a massive company though, and we are just a few guys (and one gal now). We have chosen the route we are going down since it seemed to be the easiest for us. As things progress we may well be able to develop different systems that allow for some of the things requested on this thread.
Alan
In reply to sxrxg:
That doesn't happen with music I don't think, unless someone is now offering free digital versions if you buy the CD. I doubt if it happens the other way round. Doesn't happen with e_books either.
In our case printed books, and App guides will be separate purchases.
Alan
> Will this be like when you purchase music in that you get the digital version instantly (mp3/app guide) and then the physical copy is sent out in the post (album/printed guide)?
That doesn't happen with music I don't think, unless someone is now offering free digital versions if you buy the CD. I doubt if it happens the other way round. Doesn't happen with e_books either.
In our case printed books, and App guides will be separate purchases.
Alan
In reply to slacky:
There is quite a lot of difference between the two. The Logbook integration being the most obvious one, but we also have other differences in the layout of the App.
Alan
> I'm curious what there is in the design and implementation (i.e. the User Interface) of the Rockfax application that differs from other guidebook applications that already exist such as the various offerings from thesend.co.uk ?
There is quite a lot of difference between the two. The Logbook integration being the most obvious one, but we also have other differences in the layout of the App.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
It happen a lot with vinyl records. You get a link to the mp3 as soon as you purchase then the record is set out in the post. The mp3 version is effectively given away for free as you have already purchased the music buying the record. They tend to also offer just the mp3 for purchase as well for about half the price of buying the physical record and mp3.
> That doesn't happen with music I don't think, unless someone is now offering free digital versions if you buy the CD. I doubt if it happens the other way round. Doesn't happen with e_books either.
> In our case printed books, and App guides will be separate purchases.
> Alan
It happen a lot with vinyl records. You get a link to the mp3 as soon as you purchase then the record is set out in the post. The mp3 version is effectively given away for free as you have already purchased the music buying the record. They tend to also offer just the mp3 for purchase as well for about half the price of buying the physical record and mp3.
Post edited at 12:10
Logbook integration is a nice additional feature and not something I'd imagine you'd permit other applications to access. I wonder though does that mean you can simply access the log-book directly from the application, so in essence you can see the whole log-book from within the application, or can you only log ascents of routes that are in the application?
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Amazon AutoRip http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=2614978031
Quite a few record labels do it too when you purchase directly from them.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
> That doesn't happen with music I don't think, unless someone is now offering free digital versions if you buy the CD.
Amazon AutoRip http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=2614978031
Quite a few record labels do it too when you purchase directly from them.
In reply to slacky:
We are developing this at the moment so I am not 100% sure. Certainly you will be able to log the routes you have in the App.
Alan
> Logbook integration is a nice additional feature and not something I'd imagine you'd permit other applications to access. I wonder though does that mean you can simply access the log-book directly from the application, so in essence you can see the whole log-book from within the application, or can you only log ascents of routes that are in the application?
We are developing this at the moment so I am not 100% sure. Certainly you will be able to log the routes you have in the App.
Alan
In reply to slacky:
No, it's the diary I'm asking about downloading
> Depends if you mean the actual diary or the logbook...
No, it's the diary I'm asking about downloading
In reply to planetmarshall:
I can easily live without this facility, but I was just thinking along the lines of Google Goggles or Facebook's face recognition
> Crikey - I don't think you realise how difficult that would be.
I can easily live without this facility, but I was just thinking along the lines of Google Goggles or Facebook's face recognition
In reply to UKC Gear:
Why not let users export their own data to Dropbox, for example? That's what apps like Hill Lists do and it works very well. Viewranger also lets you transfer maps cross-platform.
Edit: some form of authentication could be used for purchases, for example a license code.
Why not let users export their own data to Dropbox, for example? That's what apps like Hill Lists do and it works very well. Viewranger also lets you transfer maps cross-platform.
Edit: some form of authentication could be used for purchases, for example a license code.
Post edited at 18:14
In reply to dereke12000:
It's a far more complex problem than face recognition, something which itself is hardly trivial and far from perfect. You would have to match a 2D photograph of a crag to its real life counterpart without any knowledge of the position from which that photograph was taken or the properties of the camera and independently of the weather conditions on the day. This is difficult even for human beings to do.
It would almost certainly be worth several PhDs and a research grant running into the millions. The closest thing I can think of is Microsoft's 'Photosynth', a technology which has been the subject of a number of academic papers and has had the benefit of Microsoft's considerable research budget.
With all respect to UKC/Rockfax, I suspect it may be beyond their capabilities ( and in any case, as Alan says, it's not really needed. )
It's a far more complex problem than face recognition, something which itself is hardly trivial and far from perfect. You would have to match a 2D photograph of a crag to its real life counterpart without any knowledge of the position from which that photograph was taken or the properties of the camera and independently of the weather conditions on the day. This is difficult even for human beings to do.
It would almost certainly be worth several PhDs and a research grant running into the millions. The closest thing I can think of is Microsoft's 'Photosynth', a technology which has been the subject of a number of academic papers and has had the benefit of Microsoft's considerable research budget.
With all respect to UKC/Rockfax, I suspect it may be beyond their capabilities ( and in any case, as Alan says, it's not really needed. )
In reply to planetmarshall:
Point taken, it was just idle curiosity.
BTW I'm just as bad at face recognition as finding a route on a crag, so yes probably require similar processing skills.
> It's a far more complex problem than face recognition, something which itself is hardly trivial and far from perfect ... This is difficult even for human beings to do.
Point taken, it was just idle curiosity.
BTW I'm just as bad at face recognition as finding a route on a crag, so yes probably require similar processing skills.
In reply to dereke12000:
It's on the TODO list for the diary upgrades along with multi-partner tagging in activities.
It's on the TODO list for the diary upgrades along with multi-partner tagging in activities.
In reply to UKC Gear:
Have a look at how ViewRanger manages to retain purchases cross platform. Absolutely seamless and simple to do. (Grand scheme)
Have a look at how ViewRanger manages to retain purchases cross platform. Absolutely seamless and simple to do. (Grand scheme)
In reply to dereke12000:
I'll reply to this question, as it has been asked been asked by several people, and feel qualified to do so (I have developed and published several apps, both for myself and 3rd parties):
Apple does not allow any in-app purchases that are not routed via their app store. They used to allow it, but they changed the rules a few years ago. For an example of how this effects you as a user, just download the Kindle app for your iPhone/iPad: it will sync all your purchases, but if you want to buy a new book you are routed to the Amazon web-page. You cannot directly buy in-app.
Apple does allow syncing of purchases made outside the app-store. You can buy a book at the Amazon web site (via your browser), and then associate a Kindle app (whether on ipad, android or whatever) with your amazon account, and it will download all your purchases.
In the Rockfax scenario, a putative setup might be that you would buy an e-guide at Rockfax.com, download the app for free then link your device to your rockfax account, which would then download the data that you have bought.
In fairness to Alan and Rockfax, there are good reasons why you might not want to do this:
- the stats for people buying IAP directly via the app-store are considerably higher than those for buying on an external web-store. Amazon get away with it because they are pretty much the reference for e-books, and already have a very established web store.
- technically it is marginally more difficult to do as it requires a slightly different mix of skills. (though given the technical ambition of the rest of the app, I don't see how this should be an issue).
Hope that helps
(Congrats BTW to the rockfax team for the app, I'll definitely be getting it once its out - and I look forward to being able to sync between my iPad and Galaxy S3 in the future!).
> I still don't understand why the cost of the data you have purchased can't be separated from the app delivery system.
I'll reply to this question, as it has been asked been asked by several people, and feel qualified to do so (I have developed and published several apps, both for myself and 3rd parties):
Apple does not allow any in-app purchases that are not routed via their app store. They used to allow it, but they changed the rules a few years ago. For an example of how this effects you as a user, just download the Kindle app for your iPhone/iPad: it will sync all your purchases, but if you want to buy a new book you are routed to the Amazon web-page. You cannot directly buy in-app.
Apple does allow syncing of purchases made outside the app-store. You can buy a book at the Amazon web site (via your browser), and then associate a Kindle app (whether on ipad, android or whatever) with your amazon account, and it will download all your purchases.
In the Rockfax scenario, a putative setup might be that you would buy an e-guide at Rockfax.com, download the app for free then link your device to your rockfax account, which would then download the data that you have bought.
In fairness to Alan and Rockfax, there are good reasons why you might not want to do this:
- the stats for people buying IAP directly via the app-store are considerably higher than those for buying on an external web-store. Amazon get away with it because they are pretty much the reference for e-books, and already have a very established web store.
- technically it is marginally more difficult to do as it requires a slightly different mix of skills. (though given the technical ambition of the rest of the app, I don't see how this should be an issue).
Hope that helps
(Congrats BTW to the rockfax team for the app, I'll definitely be getting it once its out - and I look forward to being able to sync between my iPad and Galaxy S3 in the future!).
1
In reply to Alun:
Thanks very much Alun for that comprehensive reply. That is how I understand the situation and it is the ease-of-use aspect that is the main reason we are using the Apple Store method.
Alan
Thanks very much Alun for that comprehensive reply. That is how I understand the situation and it is the ease-of-use aspect that is the main reason we are using the Apple Store method.
Alan
In reply to Alun:
Well explained Alun, but the other option is to buy via apple IAP and the login with Rockfax and sync it to an Android. This could also work vice versa
This is essentially what a lot of games do, but use facebook as the common login method
Well explained Alun, but the other option is to buy via apple IAP and the login with Rockfax and sync it to an Android. This could also work vice versa
This is essentially what a lot of games do, but use facebook as the common login method
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...