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A while back I did a mountain First Aid course and the instructor said, one of the more serious climbing injuries he regularly heard of, was serious ring finger skin sheath tears, where a climber (usually at a wall), had slipped off a handhold, whilst wearing a ring, the ring had caught on a projecting part of a hold as the climber was falling and the ring had then torn all or part of the climber's finger skin sheath off the finger bones.
If you don't know what I mean, there is an image here, but BE WARNED IT'S NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!
http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/77147_609471032415291...
At most walls there are signs warning about knot checking, belay style and not bouldering in harnesses, but I regularly see climbers wearing wedding rings (not taped over) and if you mention the risk, some people just look at you like you are daft. Perhaps it's no big deal, but seems like the BMC should include not wearing or taping over rings on their climbing wall best practice posters.
Just wondered what others, particularly instructors or wall staff thought?
If you don't know what I mean, there is an image here, but BE WARNED IT'S NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!
http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/77147_609471032415291...
At most walls there are signs warning about knot checking, belay style and not bouldering in harnesses, but I regularly see climbers wearing wedding rings (not taped over) and if you mention the risk, some people just look at you like you are daft. Perhaps it's no big deal, but seems like the BMC should include not wearing or taping over rings on their climbing wall best practice posters.
Just wondered what others, particularly instructors or wall staff thought?
2
In reply to Shapeshifter:
probably because they type of person who would keep their ring on while climbing is the type of person who would ignore such warnings....
probably because they type of person who would keep their ring on while climbing is the type of person who would ignore such warnings....
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In reply to higherclimbingwales:
The thing is they might take it a bit more seriously, if it was a bit more high profile on signs or wall staff were a bit more hot on it, rather than some old fart like me wondering up and tactfully trying to tell them it's a good idea to take the ring off.
The thing is they might take it a bit more seriously, if it was a bit more high profile on signs or wall staff were a bit more hot on it, rather than some old fart like me wondering up and tactfully trying to tell them it's a good idea to take the ring off.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
I've always wondered about this too: I occasionally warn people about not wearing rings too.
I've always wondered about this too: I occasionally warn people about not wearing rings too.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
I'm not convinced taping it would really do much good, I think it could still get caught.
I do warn people of the risk of climbing in rings (I work in a wall), but many choose to ignore it if they have been climbing for a while. In reality, I have never seen any incident involving rings. Maybe I have just been lucky.
I guess some people can no longer get their wedding rings off, so decide to risk it. Then because they get away with it, they think it's safe?
I'm not convinced taping it would really do much good, I think it could still get caught.
I do warn people of the risk of climbing in rings (I work in a wall), but many choose to ignore it if they have been climbing for a while. In reality, I have never seen any incident involving rings. Maybe I have just been lucky.
I guess some people can no longer get their wedding rings off, so decide to risk it. Then because they get away with it, they think it's safe?
2
In reply to girlymonkey:
To be fair I've never seen this kind of injury actually happen, whereas I have seen people get dropped by belayers, tie in incorrectly, back clip QDs etc etc, but it just seems loads of people are not aware of the potential risk and it's an easy one to address.
To be fair I've never seen this kind of injury actually happen, whereas I have seen people get dropped by belayers, tie in incorrectly, back clip QDs etc etc, but it just seems loads of people are not aware of the potential risk and it's an easy one to address.
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
I don't think this is the explanation. Instead I think people are simply unaware of the risk. When I see people wearing rings it's generally beginners / inexperienced climbers.
I sometimes point out the dangers, but am frequently ignored. Wall staff should be more proactive IMO, and would presumably be listened to more.
> probably because they type of person who would keep their ring on while climbing is the type of person who would ignore such warnings....
I don't think this is the explanation. Instead I think people are simply unaware of the risk. When I see people wearing rings it's generally beginners / inexperienced climbers.
I sometimes point out the dangers, but am frequently ignored. Wall staff should be more proactive IMO, and would presumably be listened to more.
2
In reply to kingholmesy:
I'm afraid not. I find that novices listen, but more experienced climbers just look at you like you are an idiot and carry on as before! Not just on the rings front, but bad belaying etc too. Not everyone, obviously, but it does happen. You have to be so careful how you word things to not offend people (I had to correct someone's belaying the other week, and phrased it that it was me being paranoid, and I'm sure he was under control with it, etc, but could he do it just to stop me being paranoid!)
I'm afraid not. I find that novices listen, but more experienced climbers just look at you like you are an idiot and carry on as before! Not just on the rings front, but bad belaying etc too. Not everyone, obviously, but it does happen. You have to be so careful how you word things to not offend people (I had to correct someone's belaying the other week, and phrased it that it was me being paranoid, and I'm sure he was under control with it, etc, but could he do it just to stop me being paranoid!)
2
In reply to Shapeshifter:
We have a nice word for that in French, it's called "dégantage" (ungloving?), which explains very well what happens when your ring gets caught. Google it once and you will never forget to take your ring off again.
We have a nice word for that in French, it's called "dégantage" (ungloving?), which explains very well what happens when your ring gets caught. Google it once and you will never forget to take your ring off again.
3
In reply to drolex:
degloving is the English word for it. I find you don't even need to google it, the word provokes the imagination well enough usually!
degloving is the English word for it. I find you don't even need to google it, the word provokes the imagination well enough usually!
In reply to Shapeshifter:
My wedding ring is slightly loose on me, especially when it's cold, so I tend not to wear it for many things I do, either because it digs in or might slip off, quite apart from damaging it/me.
I've got a silicone one I sometimes wear in it's place - http://www.saferingz.com/
My wedding ring is slightly loose on me, especially when it's cold, so I tend not to wear it for many things I do, either because it digs in or might slip off, quite apart from damaging it/me.
I've got a silicone one I sometimes wear in it's place - http://www.saferingz.com/
1
In reply to girlymonkey:
Just had a quick check on the BMC site - can't find anything about this kind of finger injury (just the usual pulley injury stuff) - certainly couldn't find anything about degloving.
You'd think this is just the kind of thing they'd have in Summit magazine
> degloving is the English word for it. I find you don't even need to google it, the word provokes the imagination well enough usually!
Just had a quick check on the BMC site - can't find anything about this kind of finger injury (just the usual pulley injury stuff) - certainly couldn't find anything about degloving.
You'd think this is just the kind of thing they'd have in Summit magazine
In reply to Shapeshifter:
"Mr. Climbing Facility Operator," began the counsel for the plaintiff, "I see you have many signs in place to alert your users to potential dangers of using your facility: Check your knot. Stand close to the wall when belaying. Don't wear rings. Only use an approved belay device. Don't climb with gear on your harness. The list goes on...
"Would it not then be perfectly reasonably for my client to assume, in the absence of a sign alerting him to this danger, that grabbing a quick-draw during a lead fall would not be an unreasonable thing to do? Would it not therefore be fair to say that you were partly if not wholly responsible when the plaintiff then fish-hooked his hand with the karabiner?"
"Mr. Climbing Facility Operator," began the counsel for the plaintiff, "I see you have many signs in place to alert your users to potential dangers of using your facility: Check your knot. Stand close to the wall when belaying. Don't wear rings. Only use an approved belay device. Don't climb with gear on your harness. The list goes on...
"Would it not then be perfectly reasonably for my client to assume, in the absence of a sign alerting him to this danger, that grabbing a quick-draw during a lead fall would not be an unreasonable thing to do? Would it not therefore be fair to say that you were partly if not wholly responsible when the plaintiff then fish-hooked his hand with the karabiner?"
5
In reply to john arran:
Precisely. I think you have hit the nail firmly and accurately on the head.
The phrases such as using common sense and ones own initiative etc. also spring to mind.
Precisely. I think you have hit the nail firmly and accurately on the head.
The phrases such as using common sense and ones own initiative etc. also spring to mind.
1
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
...but I thought guys who are married are used to being told what to do?
*ducks*
> probably because they type of person who would keep their ring on while climbing is the type of person who would ignore such warnings....
...but I thought guys who are married are used to being told what to do?
*ducks*
3
In reply to Shapeshifter:
Are there any figures out there that demonstrate this to be a problem? I suspect it doesn't happen that often.
Are there any figures out there that demonstrate this to be a problem? I suspect it doesn't happen that often.
1
In reply to Shapeshifter:
2 words; personal responsibility.
If there was a sign on the wall for anything and everything that could possibly go wrong, there would be:
a) not enough wall space
b) less importance placed on the really important warnings that might save people's lives
2 words; personal responsibility.
If there was a sign on the wall for anything and everything that could possibly go wrong, there would be:
a) not enough wall space
b) less importance placed on the really important warnings that might save people's lives
2
In reply to Shapeshifter:
Rings, watches, wearing them for any climbing is as daft as wearing a tie when operating a drill or a lathe.
(I once got my long student hair pulled into a hand drill; luckily the drill was just powering down and all that happened was a mighty tug and a bonk on the head. Lucky.)
Rings, watches, wearing them for any climbing is as daft as wearing a tie when operating a drill or a lathe.
(I once got my long student hair pulled into a hand drill; luckily the drill was just powering down and all that happened was a mighty tug and a bonk on the head. Lucky.)
Yay, let's have more signs! Here's just a few of the ones I'm looking forward to:
Caution! Slamming this door on your hand can lead to serious injury.
Warning! Wrapping this rope around your neck and leaping from the balcony is strongly discouraged.
Attention! Shoving your head down this toilet and repeatedly pulling the chain may lead to drowning, and a wet floor on which others may slip!
IMPORTANT NOTICE - Darwinian selection operating on these premises.
Caution! Slamming this door on your hand can lead to serious injury.
Warning! Wrapping this rope around your neck and leaping from the balcony is strongly discouraged.
Attention! Shoving your head down this toilet and repeatedly pulling the chain may lead to drowning, and a wet floor on which others may slip!
IMPORTANT NOTICE - Darwinian selection operating on these premises.
2
In reply to Shapeshifter:
When my mate used the phrase 'degloveing' as a warning I instantly had horrible images in my mind and took my ring off instantly to never climb in it again...
When my mate used the phrase 'degloveing' as a warning I instantly had horrible images in my mind and took my ring off instantly to never climb in it again...
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In reply to Shapeshifter:
It is also probably an urban myth that this is any other than a very rare occurence, and too say that it happens more indoors is also a fallacy - back in the day it was only supposed to occur when you put your finger through a peg, then it became a bolt, now it is indoors.
I have never actually heard of this injury happening at a wall in the UK. However I have seen someone fish hook themselves when down jumping a route to strip the draws.
It is also probably an urban myth that this is any other than a very rare occurence, and too say that it happens more indoors is also a fallacy - back in the day it was only supposed to occur when you put your finger through a peg, then it became a bolt, now it is indoors.
I have never actually heard of this injury happening at a wall in the UK. However I have seen someone fish hook themselves when down jumping a route to strip the draws.
1
In reply to john arran:
Simon 'Bull' Jones down jumping a route on the West Face, Buoux. Left himself hanging and had to pull up with his other hand and un-skewer himself. Lucky boy missed all tendons and major blood vessels but still not nice.
Simon 'Bull' Jones down jumping a route on the West Face, Buoux. Left himself hanging and had to pull up with his other hand and un-skewer himself. Lucky boy missed all tendons and major blood vessels but still not nice.
1
In reply to john arran:
OK fair point, you can't have a sign for every daft thing people might do, but I think some are more common sense than others and I'm not sure not wearing rings is that obvious, if nobody has ever mentioned it to you.
OK fair point, you can't have a sign for every daft thing people might do, but I think some are more common sense than others and I'm not sure not wearing rings is that obvious, if nobody has ever mentioned it to you.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
Two questions....
1. Is this really an actual thing that happens at a wall or is it mainly, (purely?) a crack climbing thingy?
2. Someone said wearing a watch while climbing is a daft thing to do...again, really? Unless you are on a jamming route is this really a problem? Certainly find it hard to see how it's like wearing a tie while working a wood chipper....
Genuinely interested if it is but would be surprised.
Two questions....
1. Is this really an actual thing that happens at a wall or is it mainly, (purely?) a crack climbing thingy?
2. Someone said wearing a watch while climbing is a daft thing to do...again, really? Unless you are on a jamming route is this really a problem? Certainly find it hard to see how it's like wearing a tie while working a wood chipper....
Genuinely interested if it is but would be surprised.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
This injury is incredibly rare, I have never seen or heard of an actual incident either on the crag or at a wall. I have however seen an example of someone fish hooking themselves.
This injury is incredibly rare, I have never seen or heard of an actual incident either on the crag or at a wall. I have however seen an example of someone fish hooking themselves.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
So would you say it's safe to wear rings at walls then and I and others are just wasting our breath mentioning it? Professionally you clearly spend a lot more time around walls than I do and if it's no big deal then I'll stop bothering people.
So would you say it's safe to wear rings at walls then and I and others are just wasting our breath mentioning it? Professionally you clearly spend a lot more time around walls than I do and if it's no big deal then I'll stop bothering people.
In reply to girlymonkey:
Totally agree, what good would tape do? Unless tyou put so much on to cover the lip of the ring (and by doing so would make your finger unbendable) I suspect it's pointless.
Totally agree, what good would tape do? Unless tyou put so much on to cover the lip of the ring (and by doing so would make your finger unbendable) I suspect it's pointless.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
Whatever, IMO it's down to people to know and do what they want with wearing rings.
Whatever, IMO it's down to people to know and do what they want with wearing rings.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
All it takes is a handhold with a tapered slot, a soft metal ring gold/silver and a 50-100kg load.
All it takes is a handhold with a tapered slot, a soft metal ring gold/silver and a 50-100kg load.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
No I am saying that you should leave your rings on as clearly there is a possibility that you could get a slight injury due to your ring getting caught, you could lose your ring due to it falling off or you could scratch your ring.
What I am saying is that degloving has never happened at my wall, which has had around 3/4 million visits, so I think it is safe to say it is rare. I think your FA instructor has bought into the urban myth.
Indoor climbing is not safe, the only way to make my wall (a bouldering only wall) safe is to shut it. Even wrapping all of my customers in cotton wall or bubble wrap will not make them all safe.
No I am saying that you should leave your rings on as clearly there is a possibility that you could get a slight injury due to your ring getting caught, you could lose your ring due to it falling off or you could scratch your ring.
What I am saying is that degloving has never happened at my wall, which has had around 3/4 million visits, so I think it is safe to say it is rare. I think your FA instructor has bought into the urban myth.
Indoor climbing is not safe, the only way to make my wall (a bouldering only wall) safe is to shut it. Even wrapping all of my customers in cotton wall or bubble wrap will not make them all safe.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Does anyone here know of a de-gloving incident anywhere indoors in the UK? My main concern with rings is if you injure your finger and it swells up the ring can constrict the swollen area: I've seen quite a few of those incidents indoors and out.
Does anyone here know of a de-gloving incident anywhere indoors in the UK? My main concern with rings is if you injure your finger and it swells up the ring can constrict the swollen area: I've seen quite a few of those incidents indoors and out.
In reply to Offwidth:
Don't worry. Every wall will have a battery angle grinder somewhere, in case of cross threaded tee-nuts or someone losing their locker key........
> My main concern with rings is if you injure your finger and it swells up the ring can constrict the swollen area:
Don't worry. Every wall will have a battery angle grinder somewhere, in case of cross threaded tee-nuts or someone losing their locker key........
Post edited at 17:01
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Right seems like it's an urban myth then, I'll not bother in future. And on the off chance, at least this thread got over 1000 views so hopefully there will be less risk of a few more people "losing or scratching rings"in future, because that would be a bad thing obviously!
Right seems like it's an urban myth then, I'll not bother in future. And on the off chance, at least this thread got over 1000 views so hopefully there will be less risk of a few more people "losing or scratching rings"in future, because that would be a bad thing obviously!
In reply to Shapeshifter:
Always take mine off, mainly because I don't want to damage it ,my brother always leaves his on though probably not any more after I show him that pic
Always take mine off, mainly because I don't want to damage it ,my brother always leaves his on though probably not any more after I show him that pic
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Obvious typo. "No I am saying that you should leave your rings off as clearly there is a ...................................."
Sorry but I supect you got the drift.
> No I am saying that you should leave your rings on as clearly there is a possibility that you could get a slight injury due to your ring getting caught, you could lose your ring due to it falling off or you could scratch your ring.
Obvious typo. "No I am saying that you should leave your rings off as clearly there is a ...................................."
Sorry but I supect you got the drift.
In reply to Offwidth:
I know of three recorded cases of finger de-gloving across europe, non from the UK and all outdoor.However, there maybe the "odd" other that I am not aware of(my disclaimer) These were climbers wearing rings and forcing their fingers into small sharp pockets. One climber leading, the other two were bouldering.
Also, one recorded case of traumatic amputation of the thumb, by a climber who grabbed the rope falling off and it formed a lasso around his thumb and it cinched down as his fall was arrested, squeezing tight and "tearing" his thumb off. Again outdoors, and not in the UK.
Statistically, I would class these as "freak" accidents, which are not significant in real terms of climbing injuries (unless you are the climber involved) as so would, apart from using some common sense regarding ring wearing, I would be more concerned about knot tying, and poor belaying (indoors), and setting up good belays and helmet wearing (outdoors).
Without getting into the debate about "competency"
Hope that helps to put it into perspective
Cheers
Nick B
I know of three recorded cases of finger de-gloving across europe, non from the UK and all outdoor.However, there maybe the "odd" other that I am not aware of(my disclaimer) These were climbers wearing rings and forcing their fingers into small sharp pockets. One climber leading, the other two were bouldering.
Also, one recorded case of traumatic amputation of the thumb, by a climber who grabbed the rope falling off and it formed a lasso around his thumb and it cinched down as his fall was arrested, squeezing tight and "tearing" his thumb off. Again outdoors, and not in the UK.
Statistically, I would class these as "freak" accidents, which are not significant in real terms of climbing injuries (unless you are the climber involved) as so would, apart from using some common sense regarding ring wearing, I would be more concerned about knot tying, and poor belaying (indoors), and setting up good belays and helmet wearing (outdoors).
Without getting into the debate about "competency"
Hope that helps to put it into perspective
Cheers
Nick B
In reply to astley007:
Whilst it did not result in a devolving injury, I have got my hand stuck in a hold indoors due to my wedding ring. Happily was in a secure position and could resolve the problem. Had I fallen at that point could have been nasty.
Tend to try to not wear rings when climbing now.
Whilst it did not result in a devolving injury, I have got my hand stuck in a hold indoors due to my wedding ring. Happily was in a secure position and could resolve the problem. Had I fallen at that point could have been nasty.
Tend to try to not wear rings when climbing now.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
I have seen someone cut their finger and lose their wedding ring waterskiing on a nice smooth ski towing handle; so I can imagine that it might be rather easier to do on some rough climbing holds...
I have seen someone cut their finger and lose their wedding ring waterskiing on a nice smooth ski towing handle; so I can imagine that it might be rather easier to do on some rough climbing holds...
In reply to Shapeshifter:
Degloving is the more commonly quoted extreme example, looks grim! But another reason not to wear rings whilst climbing is in case of less visually obvious finger injury that causes swelling: if you damage a finger whilst climbing and that finger swells up due to the injury you're going to be in trouble if you've got a ring on. Statistics of actual happenings I don't know, but do you want it to be you?
Taping a ring is useless in all cases.
Degloving is the more commonly quoted extreme example, looks grim! But another reason not to wear rings whilst climbing is in case of less visually obvious finger injury that causes swelling: if you damage a finger whilst climbing and that finger swells up due to the injury you're going to be in trouble if you've got a ring on. Statistics of actual happenings I don't know, but do you want it to be you?
Taping a ring is useless in all cases.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
We had a novice girl join our club a few years back - climbing outdoors, she arrived at my belay for me to discover she was wearing an engagement ring made of CORAL! Needless to say she took it off pretty quickly when I mentioned that it wouldn't last very long if she carried on wearing it to climb on gneiss and granite!
We had a novice girl join our club a few years back - climbing outdoors, she arrived at my belay for me to discover she was wearing an engagement ring made of CORAL! Needless to say she took it off pretty quickly when I mentioned that it wouldn't last very long if she carried on wearing it to climb on gneiss and granite!
In reply to Shapeshifter:
I saw someone get de gloved by a quick draw at a climbing wall. Without doubt the most revolting thing I've even seen - poor chap looked about ready to keel over through shock.
I saw someone get de gloved by a quick draw at a climbing wall. Without doubt the most revolting thing I've even seen - poor chap looked about ready to keel over through shock.
In reply to Shapeshifter:
I'd be interested to find out if such an injury has ever occurred in a UK climbing wall as you describe it.
Catching a ring on a part of a hold? No. Don't believe it.
I can see it if someone sticks their finger through a bolt hanger and then slips / falls 'degloving' might happen.
So I'm not sure that this is something the BMC / ABC should be specifically putting resources into.
I've never seen a sign warning that long hair might get caught in a belay device. And that is more probable
I'd be interested to find out if such an injury has ever occurred in a UK climbing wall as you describe it.
Catching a ring on a part of a hold? No. Don't believe it.
I can see it if someone sticks their finger through a bolt hanger and then slips / falls 'degloving' might happen.
So I'm not sure that this is something the BMC / ABC should be specifically putting resources into.
I've never seen a sign warning that long hair might get caught in a belay device. And that is more probable
A friend of ours was climbing bare top at a wall and got his nipple ring clipped into the end of a quick draw. He didn't fall thankfully and got it out.
His nickname is now nipples
(hi Steve if your reading!)
His nickname is now nipples
(hi Steve if your reading!)
1
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