UKC

I was at the Roche aux Sabots yesterday with a couple of English friends.
There were a group of 3 young climbers from the ROKT climbing gym, identifiable by their snazzy ROKT team t-shirts, trying hard to climb the 27R, a tough 5+, one of those problems that possibly spits off more wanabee visitors who thought they could do 7a than any in the forest. It seems they were trying it as a kind of compensation for having failed on the harder Jetset, just to the left (which one of them had apparently done on a previous visit).

The Roche aux Sabots is one of the most popular massifs in the forest, and one of the most trashed. For lots of locals, it now has the feel of an outdoor bouldering gym – and I don’t mean that in a good sense, if there is one. It’s common to see large groups of visiting climbers squatting a single problem/boulder for hours, all desperate for the tick. But it often seems as if few of them, if any, are actually capable of getting it, despite dozens of attempts, plastering everything in chalk, tick marks…

The conditions yesterday were rubbish – it was hot and sticky – but this didn’t deter the ROKT team, even though they were obviously not capable of doing either problem. So lots of chalk was being caked onto the holds during their repeated attempts, there was overzealous brushing, chalk applied to rock shoes (!!!) etc.

We had to wonder, instead of spending time and energy failing on a 7a and a 5+ and helping to trash them in the process, why didn’t they lower the grade a bit and go off and get some volume in – lots of the classic blues and maybe some of the easier reds – and come back better and wiser the next day or at the end of their stay? How many wanabee visitors come to Font and get absolutely spanked because they think a winter at the wall has made them strong (as if strength is enough), or because UK bouldering gym setters don’t know what Font 6b is? Why do so many visitors seem to climb for the grade and not the problem and the simple pleasure of climbing?

Nearby, another group of visitors had set up hammocks and a slackline right in the middle of the massif. They then lowered the slackline and just left it trailing across the ground. I love slacklining and I love hammocks but this was selfish, thoughtless behaviour.

The forest and the rocks we love to climb on are a precious natural asset and the more popular bouldering becomes, the more we have to think about our impact on that asset and how our behaviour might impact the enjoyment of other users.

In reply to Steve Gough:

What did you say to them?

In reply to Steve Gough:


Feels like that to visitors too.



You're just describing bouldering. Same in the Peak, same everywhere. Think of Sabots as a sacrificial lamb, and to be fair it's all that horrible marble rock that's been reflectively polished for decades - what difference does it make if a bunch of mouth-breathers are plastering an inch of chalk over the entire venue? If you want decent rock and no dreadlocks, go somewhere else.

My personal bugbear in the Peak is when I go to obscure problems off the beaten track and I can see the chalk-plastered, over-brushed holds from half a mile away, as I did tonight (Beauty (f6C).

In reply to Steve Gough:

I was in Bas Cuvier a fortnight ago and the amount of absolutely massive tick marks and general mess was depressing.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I was brushing all the tick marks off at the other end of the crag yesterday. Shame, it's a brilliant problem

In reply to deacondeacon:

It was gently suggested they drop a few grades and do some volume, given the difficulty they were clearly having and the slimey conditions. They didn't seem particularly responsive to that idea though they did abandon their seige. They were perfectly nice youngsters, they just seemed typical of a certain kind of bouldering mindset and behaviour.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yeh Jon, not saying the problem is unique to Font. I'm just talking about my back yard because I know it well. But Font gets a much higher volume of foreign visitors than the Peak.

In reply to seankenny:

Yeah and I was at Stanage Popular and it was noisy, the routes were polished and there was crap everywhere. Up at Marble Wall, on the other hand, it was lovely.

In Font, you go to Cuvier if you want to be part of circus on a motorway verge. If that's not your bag, there's an awful lot of other places to go to!

In reply to Steve Gough:

You miss my point. Sabots is a honey-pot, there's no point in moaning about all that that entails, you are pissing in the wind. There is so much brilliant, off-the-beaten track bouldering in Font that you can just go there instead and have a much nicer time, rather than giving us the Victor Meldrew...

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I didn't have a go on Beauty tonight, was on the easier highballs. Did this for the first time in ages, a classic bit of scrittly fun Flesh and Blood (E1 5b). No shirt-off-beanie-on chalk plasterers on that one. I still sent it, though dude...

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Sure, the RauxS is a honey pot, like Cuvier and Isatis, and that's where the worst behaviour often is, but you say yourself that being off the beaten track is no guarantee of finding problems that haven't been overbrushed and overchalked.

In reply to Steve Gough:

I wouldn't consider anywhere at Stanage as "off the beaten track" to be honest anyway mate LOL

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Such as?

I haven't been to Font since the 80s when even Brits still called it 'bleau. I'll be passing through that way in August and could stop off for a day or two. Is it even worth bothering in summer (especially a summer like this one)? And if so, where's a good spot with decent stuff in the low 6's that's climbable in the heat?

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Not done it, but I'll search it out. Probably wait until my new slouchy beanie arrives from Bergfreunde though

In reply to Rocknast:


if you think that makes you sound knowledgeable, you are mistaken

In reply to AlanLittle:

there'll be folk much better qualified to advise, I've never been in summer. I did a great, shady blue circuit once from the isitis car park, heading off way right of the normal crag. Gorge du houx has good rock and shade, and is numpty-free (its quite hard to find...)

In reply to AlanLittle:
I would say there's almost zero point in climbing in Bleau at the moment, unless you're ready to get up super early. And even then: two weeks ago I went to Bas Cuvier for the first time (I like being on my own so I'd never bothered going there), got up at 6, got there at 6.30, it was already something like 25°. By 10 it was well over 30. Do not expect to be able to hold slopers in such conditions But temperatures are likely to fall by August... or not. For shade, try Rocher d'Avon, Puiselet (though I think it's covered with moss, and the boulders are bloody high), Petit Bois (probably the most shaded area, but the further you go from the carpark, the more moss and lichen you'll find).

I wholeheartedly support the OP's message and am appalled by a lot of what I see everytime I go climbing in Bleau. I haven't really been to any other world-class bouldering area (except for Ailefroide) so I can't compare, but I'm under the impression that Bleau attracts more nitwits than other places. It's like people leave their common sense home when they come here. We're getting virtually zero rain at the moment, until yesterday we'd had nothing in at least two weeks, the grass is extremely dry, we got fires raging in Cul de Chien, Potala, Videlles and so on, and yet there's still people barbecueing in the carpark at Roche aux Sabots. Seriously?

I suppose the main problem is, apart from the increasing popularity of bouldering, that many of those who come to Bleau have barely ever climbed outside their gym and know squat about how to treat the rock and the surrounding nature. Or maybe they simply don't care, I mean people have been repeating for years and years that you should always brush off the holds and clean up your shoes with a mat before climbing, that you shouldn't climb right after the rain and so on. But nobody's listening. I was glad to see that in his last video, Nikky Ceria staged himself brushing off the holds and tick marks, and I wish more climbers did that to show others the right thing to do.

I also agree that the grades used in gyms (not just in the UK, it's about the same here in France and was the samed in Dublin) are completely unrealistic, and that this may have a damaging effect on people's attitude: "why the chell can't I get my ass off the ground on this lousy blue?? I can flash 6B at the gym!". And that's how you get situations like the one described by OP. I think that's also why people go the same places as everyone else: in addition to the proximity to the carpark (Isatis (at least Cuisinière is quieter now), Cuvier, Sabots), they'll do the same problems as everybody else has because that usually means they're soft for the grade, but all they want is to bring back a 6A/7A and show off a bit. I mean come on, who genuinely believes Le surplomb du lépreux, with it horribly polished holds, is worth 6A?

And yes, slacklines, hammocks, pushchairs, footballs, 10 people sitting in a circle in the middle of the path, "Alles Gute zum Geburtstag" written with chalk at Drei Zinnen (writing with chalk seems to be the latest trend), campers staying overnight at the carparks, dogs running free during the fauna's rearing period, people destroying trees to bivy in the forest... The list goes on.

In reply to Steve Gough:

We should cover all the holds in pine resin instead, because that'll help. Oh wait....

In reply to Adrien:

This is really sad to read. We'd intended to take the kids on the way back from Ariege but clearly not a good idea. Your comments about indoor are spot on and helps me justify our position that the kids climb on rock and not indoors, sadly not in Bleau it appears...... There are so many ways to be embarrassed to be English........

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Ouch!

In reply to herbe_rouge:

Oh I never said it was the English. It's the locals (well maybe not, more like the Parisian weekenders), the Spaniards, the Germans, the Swedes, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Swiss and the British (in no particular order). It has much more to do with the climbing "culture" than with a particular nationality.

Now I'm not saying don't come to Bleau, it's still a fantastic place and I consider myself extremely lucky to live here. I'm sure my comments apply in part to most world-class areas in Europe (the Peak District looks as if it isn't spared by these attitudes). I suppose you'd have to go to, say Rocklands to find great quality rock and an unspoilt environment (I haven't been there so I'm only assuming). I'm sure your kids would love Bleau nonetheless, there really is climbing for all ages of skills. Plus it shouldn't be quite as hot as in Ariège My advice is simply to get up early and climb on weekdays to avoid the crowds (and the heat).


Kid Spatula: you do realize virtually nobody uses pof anymore, right?

In reply to Adrien:

Yeah, however a lot of the problems are essentially destroyed by the use of it historically. Last I saw the local activists where still advocating it's use as well.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

A lot of the problems? Now that's grossly exaggerated to me, I've only ever seen (and felt... whoosh!) the effects of pof a couple of times (and so far I've been to something like 20 areas). Sure some of the classics are barely climbable, but since the times when pof was used loads of climbers have tried these problems and polished the holds by climbing on them, so I doubt that the layer of resin that existed is still there. (And anyway those so-called "classics" are often overrated, just because they were climbed long ago doesn't make them good.) Again, if you go to, say, Éléphant, and check out the classics there (Surplomb du lépreux, Surplomb de l'éléphant, L'Y, La voie Michaud), you'll see that the holds were destroyed not by pof, but by the countless people who set foot on them, it's not glassy and ultra slippery like when pof was used, it's just dug out and white and grainy. These days when you see pictures or videos or locals putting up problems they use chalk as well.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

I'd love to hear your explanation then as to why the polish in Bleau is a recent phenomenon (last 10 years or so) just as pof use is declining after 80 years of climbing in Bleau. This 'pof' argument is a convenient cop-out.

Clearly the rock is being destroyed by current climbing practices - I'm sure the moronic refusal to clean shoes does and climbing on the damp most of the damage -but I strongly suspect chalk has a role.

In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:


In my (limited) experience it is the footholds that are the most polished. I have always assumed it is just sandy shoes. Which is going to wear down soft sandstone faster - rubbing a chalky hand on it or grinding a piece of sandpaper into it (which is basically what standing on a sandy shoe does)? I don't think explanations beyond this are really needed.

Maybe just give the police the power to confiscate climbing shoes if being used with sand on? :P

In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:

Nonsense. I started climbing in Font nearly 20 years ago and the polish was really bad then on popular easier circuits and doesnt seem to have changed. The worst polish is on easier slabs where pof and chalk stupidly got combined by climbers with different mindsets. There are still lots of nice out of the way places in the forest and loads of stuff not listed but letting the masses know just transfers the problem there. Climbers need to up their own their act and always challenge bad practice, not just report it (maybe the ROKT crew could explain themselves or if ithe report is true, apologise)

Jon is also right about Stanage but even the Popular End is lovely (except the polish and cam damage) at dawn on a summer morning.

In reply to Offwidth:


Apologise? For what? Not getting up a problem in the requisite number of goes? And who should they apologise to? All the other people who were also cluttering up a notoriously busy crag? Jeeze, you may well have won the competition for most pompous post of the year, and that is very hotly contested category!

In reply to Adrien:

No, BleausardUK said it was the English! Regardless, shan't take the kids in high season, I think I'd rather sweat it out in Ariege .... I'm aware it's not just the English and you're right, it's happening in the UK too but that's little consolation..... Desolee.....

In reply to herbe_rouge:


If you're passing anyway then why not take them, see how you get on, you might get a break in the weather but even if you don't there's plenty to see and the forest is lovely even if it's too hot during the day to climb hard.

jk

In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:

Yeah this is not in fact true. It was mega polished when I went to Font in the early 90s. So no, not a recent phenomenon at all. Chalk is going to do bugger all to the rock, and it was mainly the footholds that were buggered even back then. The pof covered holds of doom were possibly the worst thing, much worse than a chalked up hold.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

Certainly at that time any problem that I might be interested in at Sabots remained unpolished, sadly not the case any more. Possibly dirty shoes have always been an issue on easy circuits. It's certainly not unusual to see people climbing them in filthy trainers to show off.



This is based on what? I have no idea what reactions could be taking place and neither do you. At a very minimum, there's the constant brushing of an abrasive into the holds and the slipping of feet and hands caused by the loss of friction that chalk causes on sandstone.

In reply to Adrien:

I'll give you that the latter part of your list are certainly all anti-social activities but the first four items you list strike me as pure snobbery. Slacklines and hammocks could certainly be badly placed or put up in a way that damages a tree but there's nothing inherently wrong with them, as far as I can see.

It's difficult to see anything at all wrong with pushchairs.

Footballs, again, could certainly be used dispruptively but it seems unfair to suggest they shouldn't be around the forest at all.

In reply to Luke90:

I didn't say they don't belong to the forest, what I was targeting was the way people hog the place by coming in large groups complete with the aforementioned items and settling like they own the place (it's all in the attitude). Often they end up monopolizing an entire clearing, blocking paths with hammocks or slacklines, leaving their pushchairs in the middle of the path, playing football right beside boulder problems, etc. I'm obviously not saying it's always the case, but it happens often enough to be really annoying.

In reply to Steve Gough:

Well, I went in 88 and 89, and I remember lots of polish. Used to stay at the free camping at Cuvier. The woods were ankle-deep in shit, fires were rife, but the bouldering was a lot quieter and more civilised than the account here. And our guidebook used only the ed sup grades.

A diversionary story. The only facilities at that campsite was a toilet so full you couldn't physically enter the cubicle, and a standpipe. Every evening this gorgeous pair of french girls would bathe naked under it while we ate our sausage and sauerkraut. Everyday we'd try bonjours in a vain seventeen year old attempt at seduction. On our last day, not thinking, I said 'good morning'. 'Oh! You're English too! We thought you were French.' Turned out they were from somewhere like Bristol.

In reply to Tyler:


I wasn't suggesting they should apologise or even that they have anything to apologise for. They're just doing what lots of other climbers are doing in the forest, day in day out, particularly perhaps younger, wall-trained climbers who are on a short visit and a mission to tick some elusive grade.
It's a good idea for all of us to think from time to time about the how and why of our climbing, what we're getting out of it, and the impact our habits have on others and the environment.

In reply to Tyler:


It may be hotly contested but Offwidth is well ahead...

In reply to Gael Force:

Offwidth is man secure of his own convictions, so that's sort of his UKC job, particularly when Mr G. Stainforth isn't around to patiently tell people why they are completely wrong.

I guess Font suffers from being such a "destination" - people from literally all around the world go there to just boulder, so you have a holiday atmosphere plus a big mix of different climbing cultures/expectations from people coming from very different regions/countries etc.

In reply to Adrien:


'Unspoilt' depends on what you are comparing it to. Compared to its pristine state in the early 90s, parts of Rocklands looked quite well worn ten years later. I guess to most people it would still look pretty unspoilt but I'm afraid that I'd probably get quite a shock if I went there now.

That doesn't necessarily mean that people don't care about these beautiful places (although some are poorly informed about how fragile they are) but the sad fact is that when large numbers of people visit wild places it shows.

In reply to Steve Gough:

Well, I'll be there from sunday for a week, with the masses
No pushchair, slackline or hammock....but mats, chalk, brush, and factor 30.
Camping at La musardiere (pool for my non climbing partner)
So if anyone wants to have any early morning sessions or even come round for an evening beer you would be very welcome
Cheers
Nick and Bev

In reply to TobyA:

I have plenty of grey areas (and not just the hair). It just doesn't include tolerating litter, vandelism etc. Of course I have a strong preference to follow good practice (like the bouldering ten commandments) so we can retain the quality of lines as best we can for the next generation. I'm genuinely surprised a ROKT team would be involved in the poor practice described, as I'm aware of their community spirit, including being involved with one of their clean-ups at Woodhouse Scar, so I would very much like their side of the story.

Gordon is thoughtful, highly experienced, and very well informed and clearly indentifable. For me his posts are often a highlight of the forums and a welcome change to some of the noisier folk here where we have no obvious basis or accountability for their views.

In reply to David Alcock:

Quality story!

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm still not sure what poor practise is though? The OP accuses them of trying hard, wearing snazzy t-shirts and failing on Jetset. I've done all three at least once and I've never felt I ought to apologise nor that it was "poor practise". The OP does not say they were slacklining who I agree are beneath contempt maybe you are over egging what the OP said

In reply to Tyler:
I suggest you must have missed the 3rd paragraph where pretty direct allegations are made of the ROKT group involved with: overchalking, over-zealous brushing, chalking shoes and seige tactics on something too hard. Hardly the worst I've heard of or seen but inconsitent with the attitude I'd predict from an enviromentally sensitive wall. Initial failure at font is the expected norm unless you are not trying hard but siege failure with crap technique is rude and is increasing damage. Excesive chalk use at Font is pointless (it makes problems harder) and the mess is increasingly moving us towards access issues.

In reply to Steve Gough:
I'm afraid that you're just gonna have to deal with it mate.

In reply to Tyler:

You misrepresent what I said Tyler.
The things you list as criticisms were just observations. I did not say that trying hard, wearing snazzy t-shirts or failing on stuff constitute bad practice. Obviously.

Overuse of chalk - (or pof) including applying it to rock shoes - and overbrushing I would say are poor practice.
But I think it's fair to ask about what does constitute bad practice, or to wonder about - particularly for ambitious inexperienced climbers who really want to move up the grades - what is the best way to get better and get the most out of a week in Font in temps exceeding 30°, without negatively impacting the environment and other climbers.

In reply to Offwidth:


I would argue that "Excessive" chalk "use" is pointless and indeed actively counter-productive, as you say, anywhere.
In Bleau I would argue that any chalk "use" is counter-productive as it makes the holds slippery, which is the reason it's use is strongly discouraged by cosiroc and others.