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DMM's new belay device has just won an Industry Award at the OutDoor Friedrichshafen mega-show, but what does a weekend punter make of it on the crags of the Peak District and Pembroke?Read more
In reply to UKC Gear:
"BD recommend backing up such lowers with an Italian hitch on a second fixed krab - safe but lots of hassle."
Are you suggesting you don't need to back up a pivot when lowering in guide mode?
"BD recommend backing up such lowers with an Italian hitch on a second fixed krab - safe but lots of hassle."
Are you suggesting you don't need to back up a pivot when lowering in guide mode?
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In reply to jezb1:
I agree with Jez on this one. I find a lower in guide mode just using a krab twisted in the hole is hard to control without a back-up.
I agree with Jez on this one. I find a lower in guide mode just using a krab twisted in the hole is hard to control without a back-up.
In reply to Jim Walton:
Really? I've never had any issue with this. If anything I find it pays out too slow rather than uncontrollably fast.
Really? I've never had any issue with this. If anything I find it pays out too slow rather than uncontrollably fast.
In reply to UKC Gear:
I´ve tested the Pivot against most of the competition (tested as in measured its performance).
It´s a good belay plate, less braking force than an ATC XP or ATC XP Guide but still a solid performer.
Rope feed is slightly worse than the BD offerings as the keeper wire is too short but still acceptable.
Lowering is slightly better than most of the competition but worse than the Alpine Up for example.
Rope take-in in guide mode is as bad as all the rest except the Alpine Up which is far worse with thick ropes.
The guide locking mode fails completely with thinner ropes (7.8mm and below) in common with most competitors.
Would I use it as a belay device- yes, a good mannered and effective belay plate.
Would I use it in guide mode-no, there are better alternatives for single (GriGri) and double ropes (Gigi or Alpine Up).
I´ve tested the Pivot against most of the competition (tested as in measured its performance).
It´s a good belay plate, less braking force than an ATC XP or ATC XP Guide but still a solid performer.
Rope feed is slightly worse than the BD offerings as the keeper wire is too short but still acceptable.
Lowering is slightly better than most of the competition but worse than the Alpine Up for example.
Rope take-in in guide mode is as bad as all the rest except the Alpine Up which is far worse with thick ropes.
The guide locking mode fails completely with thinner ropes (7.8mm and below) in common with most competitors.
Would I use it as a belay device- yes, a good mannered and effective belay plate.
Would I use it in guide mode-no, there are better alternatives for single (GriGri) and double ropes (Gigi or Alpine Up).
1
In reply to jezb1:
Presumably if you lose control with the pivot and let go then it locks back up again. I've seen other devices in guide mode lower using your body weight to assist with a sling looped back through the belay to the device, if you lose control like that your weight will keep the device open.
I'd prefer to have a play with one before commiting but from that video I think I'd be happy being lowered off a pivot without a backup. I think I'd rather that than someone try and control both it and an italian hitch.
Would have been interesting if the most distinguishing feature of the device was tested in the review.
Presumably if you lose control with the pivot and let go then it locks back up again. I've seen other devices in guide mode lower using your body weight to assist with a sling looped back through the belay to the device, if you lose control like that your weight will keep the device open.
I'd prefer to have a play with one before commiting but from that video I think I'd be happy being lowered off a pivot without a backup. I think I'd rather that than someone try and control both it and an italian hitch.
Would have been interesting if the most distinguishing feature of the device was tested in the review.
In reply to Sharp:
If you let go of any of them they'll lock up, but rope can run through super quick prior to them locking.
I can't see why the pivot would be any different, but I haven't used one yet so am more than happy to stand corrected.
This is the backup method I use: http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk/news/new-video-releasing-a-loaded-guide-p...
If you let go of any of them they'll lock up, but rope can run through super quick prior to them locking.
I can't see why the pivot would be any different, but I haven't used one yet so am more than happy to stand corrected.
This is the backup method I use: http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk/news/new-video-releasing-a-loaded-guide-p...
6
In reply to jezb1:
The difference is that you can redirect the release mechanism so that you use your body to get some leverage on the plate. If you ever tried to release the plate in not-so-perfect conditions, it can be quite difficult! With DMM Pivot, you would use a carabiner as a lever so that it is very easy to release it.
I have done some unscientific testing with equalized system so I could see how much difference does it make. I was surprised how easy it is to release the weight compared to the BD ATC Guide! Basically you lower 1.5m (all the way to the ground) with DMM Pivot before the weight under BD ATC Guide system starts to move.
The difference is that you can redirect the release mechanism so that you use your body to get some leverage on the plate. If you ever tried to release the plate in not-so-perfect conditions, it can be quite difficult! With DMM Pivot, you would use a carabiner as a lever so that it is very easy to release it.
I have done some unscientific testing with equalized system so I could see how much difference does it make. I was surprised how easy it is to release the weight compared to the BD ATC Guide! Basically you lower 1.5m (all the way to the ground) with DMM Pivot before the weight under BD ATC Guide system starts to move.
1
1
In reply to UKC Gear:
Been interested to read the other posts on this device. I bought a pivot recently, mainly because of its advertised ability to release safely and easily under load. Using similar devices in guide mode is a pain when your second falls on the rope then requires slack to get back on the rock or lower to retrieve gear or even return to the ground. Jez's video gives a clear demo of the palaver required, even in 'easy' circumstances.
The pivot seemed to work for me smoothly as advertised under 'test' conditions - ie using weighted bags and a tree as an anchor with a clear drop.
Unfortunately I've had a couple of 'real life' occasions when it hasn't performed to expectations. The first was when my second fell off: the pivot locked off but it was only with great difficulty that I could release the load. The second was when I was trying to lower my second from a stance: the pivot locked when the second's weight came on to it but it then proved impossible to release.
I am certain that I was using the device in the correct way on both of these occasions. The only factors I can think of are the weight involved - 75 -80kg; or other factors inherent in a 'real life' setting such as rock surfaces and angles, rope running at an angle,etc.
Would be interested to hear if anyone else has had difficulties like this.
I've also found the pivot to be a bit 'grabby', particularly when starting to abseil. I've put this down to the shortish keeper wire loop.
It has worked well as a normal belay device ie not in guide mode.
Been interested to read the other posts on this device. I bought a pivot recently, mainly because of its advertised ability to release safely and easily under load. Using similar devices in guide mode is a pain when your second falls on the rope then requires slack to get back on the rock or lower to retrieve gear or even return to the ground. Jez's video gives a clear demo of the palaver required, even in 'easy' circumstances.
The pivot seemed to work for me smoothly as advertised under 'test' conditions - ie using weighted bags and a tree as an anchor with a clear drop.
Unfortunately I've had a couple of 'real life' occasions when it hasn't performed to expectations. The first was when my second fell off: the pivot locked off but it was only with great difficulty that I could release the load. The second was when I was trying to lower my second from a stance: the pivot locked when the second's weight came on to it but it then proved impossible to release.
I am certain that I was using the device in the correct way on both of these occasions. The only factors I can think of are the weight involved - 75 -80kg; or other factors inherent in a 'real life' setting such as rock surfaces and angles, rope running at an angle,etc.
Would be interested to hear if anyone else has had difficulties like this.
I've also found the pivot to be a bit 'grabby', particularly when starting to abseil. I've put this down to the shortish keeper wire loop.
It has worked well as a normal belay device ie not in guide mode.
Post edited at 21:42
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In reply to jezb1:
Doesn't everyone else hold the dead rope when lowering? If you lose control then you effectively have a standard friction belay setup?
Doesn't everyone else hold the dead rope when lowering? If you lose control then you effectively have a standard friction belay setup?
1
In reply to UKC Gear:
I quite like the grivel master pro in terms of lowering a second, also slightly confused as to if the pivot is any safer or simply more practical (which could make it very slightly safer in of it's self I suppose.
I quite like the grivel master pro in terms of lowering a second, also slightly confused as to if the pivot is any safer or simply more practical (which could make it very slightly safer in of it's self I suppose.
In reply to UKC Gear:
I think another key point missing in the review (I am sorry, Toby!) is that the pivot part of the belay plate is rated to 16kN. There were some concerns raised that the pivoting part does not look very strong. However, it's really solid construction.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=614302&v=1#x8034091
I think another key point missing in the review (I am sorry, Toby!) is that the pivot part of the belay plate is rated to 16kN. There were some concerns raised that the pivoting part does not look very strong. However, it's really solid construction.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=614302&v=1#x8034091
In reply to jezb1:
Face for radio not video ? You do yourself a great disservice young man - you could be the next UKC poster boy
As for all the scratching - midges eh ??? a likely story - you wanna see the doctor m8, I'm sure he'll give you some cream to put on it
Face for radio not video ? You do yourself a great disservice young man - you could be the next UKC poster boy
As for all the scratching - midges eh ??? a likely story - you wanna see the doctor m8, I'm sure he'll give you some cream to put on it
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In reply to jezb1:
Really clear video Jez, enjoyed watching.
I've always found a biner can be used to lever the belay plate and holding the dead rope whilst doing this and slowing paying the rope through works a treat. It's very quick, uses only 1 biner, and is safe. Also means there's less clearly up to do when the climber starts climbing again.
Really clear video Jez, enjoyed watching.
I've always found a biner can be used to lever the belay plate and holding the dead rope whilst doing this and slowing paying the rope through works a treat. It's very quick, uses only 1 biner, and is safe. Also means there's less clearly up to do when the climber starts climbing again.
In reply to jezb1:
Hi Jez - I'm on holiday with only intermittent internet access so sorry I haven't gotten back to you on this. I guess I would say that I'm not claiming anything but having looked now at the DMM video and pdf instructions that comes with the device they do not suggest you need the additional back up. I checked the same sources for the Mega Jul and it seems Edelrid also do not seem to suggest you need one.
It is so long since I needed to lower someone in guide mode on my ATC guide, I can't remember how I did it. I have more recently lowered people with the mega jul and the Pivot though and not had any issues when not using a back up. You are obviously a qualified professional while I'm just a hobbyist punter so I take your advice seriously, but I have to say I've never thought the Pivot (or the Mega Jul) felt worrying when lowering people with out any back up. Indeed, you still need quite a lot of puff to lever the the devices into an "open" position to allow lowering (less so with the Pivot because of the pivoty-thingy). You let go at all and the thing locks up again quick smart. Keeping my hand on the dead rope felt perfectly natural but actually you are controlling the speed far more by how much you pivot the device, and the forces on it are very much trying to 'close' it again. I would be very hard to imagine a situation where some ones panicked response would be to lever it 'open' more (unlike say, the release lever on the Grigri - the issue the Ederid Eddy set out to solve).
My thoughts about your video though, if I understand correctly, is that by sitting down and weighting your harness, you are actually pulling the device into an 'open' position. This seems to counteract the devices natural urge to 'close' when being used to lower like this. If the belayer in your system gets clonked by a rock and knocked out, would they not fall back in their harness possibly 'opening' the belay device? I guess your prussik should stop rope going through if this were to happen, but the DMM designers could possibly argue that you are solving a problem that they don't believe is there and in doing so potentially making more problems. Thoughts?
Hi Jez - I'm on holiday with only intermittent internet access so sorry I haven't gotten back to you on this. I guess I would say that I'm not claiming anything but having looked now at the DMM video and pdf instructions that comes with the device they do not suggest you need the additional back up. I checked the same sources for the Mega Jul and it seems Edelrid also do not seem to suggest you need one.
It is so long since I needed to lower someone in guide mode on my ATC guide, I can't remember how I did it. I have more recently lowered people with the mega jul and the Pivot though and not had any issues when not using a back up. You are obviously a qualified professional while I'm just a hobbyist punter so I take your advice seriously, but I have to say I've never thought the Pivot (or the Mega Jul) felt worrying when lowering people with out any back up. Indeed, you still need quite a lot of puff to lever the the devices into an "open" position to allow lowering (less so with the Pivot because of the pivoty-thingy). You let go at all and the thing locks up again quick smart. Keeping my hand on the dead rope felt perfectly natural but actually you are controlling the speed far more by how much you pivot the device, and the forces on it are very much trying to 'close' it again. I would be very hard to imagine a situation where some ones panicked response would be to lever it 'open' more (unlike say, the release lever on the Grigri - the issue the Ederid Eddy set out to solve).
My thoughts about your video though, if I understand correctly, is that by sitting down and weighting your harness, you are actually pulling the device into an 'open' position. This seems to counteract the devices natural urge to 'close' when being used to lower like this. If the belayer in your system gets clonked by a rock and knocked out, would they not fall back in their harness possibly 'opening' the belay device? I guess your prussik should stop rope going through if this were to happen, but the DMM designers could possibly argue that you are solving a problem that they don't believe is there and in doing so potentially making more problems. Thoughts?
3
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
The difference is when, as in the video, a sling and body weight is used to release the device rather than a carabiner. If you do this I would suggest a backup is a really good idea as the plate opens fast and provides much less friction than a belay plate would in for example an indirect belay. And falling off the belay ledge would be catastrophic once the sling is clipped to you - so the prusik goes on first, just like in the (excellent) video.
However, I have found a krab of the correct size works fine with a reverso (not used a dmm pivot - happy to try one if DMM send me one). Letting go then re-locks the device. Adding in a munter at the waist might still be a good idea the first few times you do it.
> Doesn't everyone else hold the dead rope when lowering? If you lose control then you effectively have a standard friction belay setup?
The difference is when, as in the video, a sling and body weight is used to release the device rather than a carabiner. If you do this I would suggest a backup is a really good idea as the plate opens fast and provides much less friction than a belay plate would in for example an indirect belay. And falling off the belay ledge would be catastrophic once the sling is clipped to you - so the prusik goes on first, just like in the (excellent) video.
However, I have found a krab of the correct size works fine with a reverso (not used a dmm pivot - happy to try one if DMM send me one). Letting go then re-locks the device. Adding in a munter at the waist might still be a good idea the first few times you do it.
In reply to TobyA:
"I belayed her using an ATC Guide in autoblock mode. The device was attached directly to the anchor (tree to the right of the top of P1). I thought to switch the belay device over, so that I would lower off of my harness and have the rope re-dirceted through the power point of the anchor, but through poor judgement thought that I would be OK to lower with it in autoblock. To lower her, I girth hitched a sling to the belay biner and re-directed it through the anchor. I then kept by brake hand (left hand) on the brake strand, and used my right to pull on the sling to release tension from the belay device. At first, tension did not release, so I pulled slightly harder and the the rope went through very quickly. The bleay device was set up properly, and at no point did my brake hand let go of the rope. I thought I released the pressure instantly from the sling, but may have been mistaken, or may not have released enough pressure from the sling. I did eventually stop my partner, but not before she hit her head and her hip on the way down. I was able to lower her in a controlled manner the rest of the way to the ground. "
There are more out there like this if you care to look
"I belayed her using an ATC Guide in autoblock mode. The device was attached directly to the anchor (tree to the right of the top of P1). I thought to switch the belay device over, so that I would lower off of my harness and have the rope re-dirceted through the power point of the anchor, but through poor judgement thought that I would be OK to lower with it in autoblock. To lower her, I girth hitched a sling to the belay biner and re-directed it through the anchor. I then kept by brake hand (left hand) on the brake strand, and used my right to pull on the sling to release tension from the belay device. At first, tension did not release, so I pulled slightly harder and the the rope went through very quickly. The bleay device was set up properly, and at no point did my brake hand let go of the rope. I thought I released the pressure instantly from the sling, but may have been mistaken, or may not have released enough pressure from the sling. I did eventually stop my partner, but not before she hit her head and her hip on the way down. I was able to lower her in a controlled manner the rest of the way to the ground. "
There are more out there like this if you care to look
1
In reply to TobyA:
Hey Toby, cheers for your reply, I haven't had a chance to have a proper play with one yet.
In the video, you're right that the prussik would do the backing up.
I've heard a number of stories of people having very near misses when lowering guide plates, as they seem to be a bit on or off in terms of paying rope out - the Pivot sounds like it might be much better in this regard.
Hey Toby, cheers for your reply, I haven't had a chance to have a proper play with one yet.
In the video, you're right that the prussik would do the backing up.
I've heard a number of stories of people having very near misses when lowering guide plates, as they seem to be a bit on or off in terms of paying rope out - the Pivot sounds like it might be much better in this regard.
In reply to UKC Gear:
How do you think this would compare to the CT Be Up...and one used one yet ?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=6859
youtube.com/watch?v=grYj8nOA0xY&
How do you think this would compare to the CT Be Up...and one used one yet ?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=6859
youtube.com/watch?v=grYj8nOA0xY&
In reply to UKC Gear:
I've never experienced a problem with my Reverso 3 other than the effort required to get it moving. I've certainly never had the rope run uncontrollably through the device when lowering a second. I just ease off pressure on the krab that is being used as the lever and the lowering stops. As far as I can see the Pivot just makes the whole process easier. Is this problem something that is only encountered with the BD Guide perhaps?
Admittedly lowering a second/s is not something I have had to do very often so I would be keen to hear from those with more experience of this.
Al
I've never experienced a problem with my Reverso 3 other than the effort required to get it moving. I've certainly never had the rope run uncontrollably through the device when lowering a second. I just ease off pressure on the krab that is being used as the lever and the lowering stops. As far as I can see the Pivot just makes the whole process easier. Is this problem something that is only encountered with the BD Guide perhaps?
Admittedly lowering a second/s is not something I have had to do very often so I would be keen to hear from those with more experience of this.
Al
Post edited at 17:10
In reply to jezb1:
No but as I try to visualise that, I would have thought that would cause problems as the live rope is not pressing down as effectively on the dead rope as the dead rope is being pulled away and up as well as levering the device possibly.
Al
No but as I try to visualise that, I would have thought that would cause problems as the live rope is not pressing down as effectively on the dead rope as the dead rope is being pulled away and up as well as levering the device possibly.
Al
Post edited at 17:16
In reply to jimtitt:
Isn't this a bit different? It seems like a complete misunderstanding of how to release a guide plate rather than a problem with the "usual" method? He/she says they've hitched the sling to the "belay biner", which means he is effectively turning the device very rapidly into a redirect biner with a constriction, rather than gradually releasing the friction between the live and dead ropes whilst maintaining the usual working of the belay device (with the biner locked up against the plate)? This would seem to be even worse than trying to lower someone using a normal belay whilst forcibly pulling your belay plate away from the biner (as he/she probably has the dead rope going close to parallel to the live rope). I may have misunderstood however.
Isn't this a bit different? It seems like a complete misunderstanding of how to release a guide plate rather than a problem with the "usual" method? He/she says they've hitched the sling to the "belay biner", which means he is effectively turning the device very rapidly into a redirect biner with a constriction, rather than gradually releasing the friction between the live and dead ropes whilst maintaining the usual working of the belay device (with the biner locked up against the plate)? This would seem to be even worse than trying to lower someone using a normal belay whilst forcibly pulling your belay plate away from the biner (as he/she probably has the dead rope going close to parallel to the live rope). I may have misunderstood however.
In reply to Robin Woodward:
Neither DMM nor Petzl suggest using a backup. I wonder if the groove slots on a BD ATC Guide are wider than on either of these devices causing the rope to perhaps sometimes slip down the side and not clamp the inactive rope as effectively. That would also explain why some people find the BD offering less "grabby". I have to say I can't mimic the symptoms highlighted by Jezb1 with either the DMM Pivot nor the Petzl3. I release the krab and the rope is grabbed immediately. I'm still keen to hear of other experiences though as this could be a serious issue.
Al
Neither DMM nor Petzl suggest using a backup. I wonder if the groove slots on a BD ATC Guide are wider than on either of these devices causing the rope to perhaps sometimes slip down the side and not clamp the inactive rope as effectively. That would also explain why some people find the BD offering less "grabby". I have to say I can't mimic the symptoms highlighted by Jezb1 with either the DMM Pivot nor the Petzl3. I release the krab and the rope is grabbed immediately. I'm still keen to hear of other experiences though as this could be a serious issue.
Al
In reply to jezb1:
Jez,
Why do you use a prusik instead of an italian hitch on your harness? Do you find an italian hitch too grabby with all the other friction in the system, or is it just personal preference?
Jez,
Why do you use a prusik instead of an italian hitch on your harness? Do you find an italian hitch too grabby with all the other friction in the system, or is it just personal preference?
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