UKC

According to mountain-training FAQs, there's "How come the North York Moors and Dartmoor are on the list of mountainous areas?" - which I believe to mean that Dartmoor would count as a QMD location. Does anyone know for sure?
Secondly, can anyone recommend a good one day QMD route in Dartmoor? We'll be there during a weekend.

In reply to SenzuBean:

http://www.mountain-training.org/walking/skills-and-awards/mountain-leader/...

For the purpose of the Mountain Leader scheme, ‘mountainous country’ may be defined as wild country which may contain unavoidable steep and rocky ground where walkers are dependent upon themselves for immediate help. In the United Kingdom and Ireland mountainous country includes:
Snowdonia
Brecon Beacons
Lake District
Mountains of Mourne
Scottish Highlands
Galloway Hills
Cork & Kerry Mountains
Galway & Mayo Mountains
Donegal Mountains
Dublin & Wicklow Mountains

Dartmoor isn't on the list, however if you can address some of these, then I'd suggest they can count. I had 2 days in Dartmoor on my Dlog prior to assessment, the assessor is looking at your overall capability in a variety of UK terrrain.

Usually some or all of these criteria would be fulfilled:
the individual takes part in the planning and leadership
navigation skills are required away from marked paths
experience must be in terrain and weather comparable to that found in UK and Irish hills
knowledge is increased and skills practised
attention is paid to safety
five hours or more journey time
adverse conditions may be encountered

In reply to SenzuBean:

I've spent a fair amount of time working on Dartmoor and the nav can be nails, but it's not really mountainous.
You wouldn't want many of your DLOG entries to be there, but they can certainly be super valuable days out.

When assessing you can normally tell whether or not people have spent enough time in "proper" mountains without even looking at their DLOG.

In reply to Tony the Blade:

Hi Tony, thanks for the reply.

I'm well aware it's not on that list (which does not say that it's an all-inclusive list). But there's a separate FAQ that specifies Dartmoor is on the list. I'll just email mountain-training with that question.
Also I'm asking for a specific route, as I'm a bit anxious about making up my own route on MOD land - I'd prefer some local knowledge as to a route that gets done regularly (and thus is likely to be free of ordnance).

In reply to jezb1:




It'll only be the one QMD from Dartmoor - pretty much all of my other QMDs are in the "proper" mountains

In reply to SenzuBean:
Completely understand your reasoning but it somewhat flies in the face of what really is one of the big counters towards a QMD - you plan it. Maybe a solution, rather than a route offered to you, would be advice on where or where not to go.

In reply to SenzuBean:

7/ How come the North York Moors and Dartmoor are on the list of mountainous areas?

Yes, one would expect these kinds of areas to come under Hill and Moorland Leader exclusively. There are two points to make: • a Mountain Leader award holder can operate in Hill and Moorland Leader type terrain. The reverse is not true.
• The Mountain Leader scheme pre-dates the Hill and Moorland Leader by more than 30 years so the list is historic and has not been changed since the inception of Hill and Moorland (formerly Walking Group Leader). There are no plans to change the list in the near future. Hill and Moorland terrain is described in a different way.

I think that if you really want to make QMD out of your trip to Dartmoor you should look to set your own objectives and route.
If you are visiting at the weekend there is no firing on the ranges so you can work on the open moor comfortably.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4...
There is very little ordnance lying about these days and what there is likely to be flash, smoke or small arms. The advise is to not touch any metallic objects so you should be fine.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):


By route, I didn't mean a full-on route, but maybe like "this peak to that peak and back via this other peak". Or to frame it differently - what's the best part of Dartmoor to go for a QMD?

In reply to SenzuBean:

Get to Princetown and if the firing times are no good use the South area and if the firing times are in your favour head North. Loads to go at and plenty of overnight possibilities for a wild camp too.

In reply to TMM:
I'm quite happy to plan my own route, but for example if someone asked me "I'm looking to get a nice QMD in Snowdonia, what would you recommend?" then I'd say "Oh, well there's nice routes on the Glyders. The Carneddau make a nice day out. I also recommend the Nantlle ridge - great little place that's usually fairly empty" - etc.
I'm not asking for a .gpx file or anything (not that I even have a GPS)

In reply to jezb1:


No need - it's all online these days:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dartmoor-firing-programme

In reply to SenzuBean:

Bear in mind that Fur Tor is reputedly the place furthest from a road in England, so it's worth heading out that way to get the best 'wildness' out of the moor. As Jezb1 says head north from Princetown area if they're not firing.

In reply to Tom Last:


Thank you for actually recommending _something_

I will check the map and see what I can find around there.

In reply to SenzuBean:

No problem

In reply to SenzuBean:

Here's a couple of good days out - taken from my Dlog...

Hound Tor:
A 10 mile circular walk from Ramsleye in undulating terrain, walking on waymarked paths & bridleways, difficult tracks and over open upland.
A navigation instruction session with an experienced walker with limited knowledge of navigation techniques. We worked on map orientation, using a grid reference, taking and walking to a bearing (from both map and terrain), pacing and timings.

Yes Tor:
A circular from Okehampton. Navigation training with a mixed ability group. Okehampton to Hound Tor then West to Wild Hillhays before returning via Yes Tor. Walking on clear paths and bridleways.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Dartmoor was specifically on the list until a few months ago, when it silently vanished, but is still referenced in various places on the ML website (like that FAQ).

Personally, as I've got a QMD or 2 from when it was on the list, I'm leaving them on my DLOG. By the time I actually get round to doing ML I'll have an excess of QMDs anyway.

In reply to Tony the Blade:

...then West to Wild Hillhays

Nice, poetic spoonerism

In reply to SenzuBean:



Excuse my confusion but you asked for a route in your OP.

If you want a solid couple of days on the moor I would suggest starting from Princetown, Two Bridges or Postrbridge and look at doing a loop around the North moor encompassing Fur Tor, Cosdon, High Willhays, Yes Tor, Great Links Tor, Tavy Cleave, Lynch Tor and Great Mis Tor.
That will give you some nicely varied terrain, plenty of interesting nav, camping options and lots of historical interest.

I hope the information on the ranges was useful.

In reply to Tom Last:



Oops haha

In reply to SenzuBean:

I've not done ML, so I don't know what's best towards that, but I'd look into doing a day on the south moor if you can, seems like it gives you some nice variety in navigation with less prominent features etc. Maybe starting at Lud Gate and heading up Pupers on the way to Rhyder's and then cross to the joy that is navigating to Ducks Pool (particularly in the mist/mizzle), before heading down to Shell Top before heading back east to Clapper Bridge (possibly via Three Barrows) and up.

On the north moor I'd be tempted to start at Merrivale and do a cloackwise (ish) loop taking in Staple, Roos, Cocks, Fur, then east to Sittaford, and back around, maybe via the Whites or Rough to Mis and back down to the pub. Although a similar loop could start from Princetown/Two bridges (but more time spent in civilisation/with the tourists) with small adaptions and a bit more time near the roads/farms.

I'd assume part of the reason for including Dartmoor (or not excluding it) is to give people form the SW a chance to get some stuff done without driving for 3-5 hours minimum, but I guess the same could be said if you live in Great Yarmouth (although why would you ).

In reply to climbwhenready:


It was mentioned in one of newsletters that if will be removed from the list. As well as Peak District and some other area.

I remember having a lot of wild camping logs from Dartmoor at my training time and instructor was perfectly happy with that. But it was a while ago. Generally I noticed that instructors are chilled out and happy to 'count' anything as long as you are fit, don't get lost and comfortable on near to vertical ground.

In reply to TMM:






Thanks very much TMM - exactly what I was after. Sounds like I'll have to come back and do more another time - this trip I'm asking about it's my partner and I, and we're booked into a B&B (so no camping). In fact if the weather is great we might even just go climbing on the tors

In reply to SenzuBean:

http://javu.co.uk/Climbing/Guides/DartmoorBouldering/index.shtml

No shortage of climbing on tors

In reply to TMM:

I have quite a few Dartmoor qmds in my loogbook, all of which I think counted towards my ml pass. I stand by the fact that the moors can be one of the hardest places in the uk to nav when the mist comes down, even if it isn't exactly mountainous.

As mentioned above Fur tor on the oakhampton range makes for a good destination, and can be combined with several tors around it walking from the south. Also, I've never had a problem with finding ordinance in the firing zones.

In reply to LJC:



Ah that's good to hear - looking forward to it now!

In reply to SenzuBean:

As per many of the helpful responses here, the moor has many faces to show you and interesting places to be found and explored.

I would steer clear of a start at the very north of the North Moor (Okey, Belstone etc). At anything like ML standard you would have to try pretty hard to get lost within the roads and tracks of the military training area. I would go for West, or even better East of there. Easy access start would be from Throwleigh, walking out over Watern Tor towards Sandy Hole or East Dart Waterfall and then even Fur Tor for a long, wild day.
From the middle of the moor Postbridge (out to East Dart Waterfall, Cut Hill, Fur Tor etc), or Merrivale (Gt Mis Tor, Deadlake, Tavy Hole, Fur Tor) are both good for starts. Thing to watch on the North Moor is your planned river crossings; DNPA are allergic to footbridges!

The South Moor is lonelier. Hexworthy is a great starting point and then out through the Swincombe to Childes Tomb and then to "outer space" beyond Fox Tor is wild and you are unlikely to see anyone else!

Enjoy!

In reply to SenzuBean:
Map and compass are almost always to hand on Dartmoor. Much less so in mountains because the nav is usually blindingly obvious in comparison. Go out on South Dartmoor and try and get to the head of the Avon from the North. Tricky.

In reply to SenzuBean:

If I remember correctly, a QMD needs a 2000' peak as well as the 5+ hours - that means you'd need to include Yes Tor / High Wilhays. I include days on Dartmoor in my logbook, but not as QMDs. It is totally brilliant for practicing night nav - if you can find your way on Dartmoor at night, you should be able to find your way anywhere. It's so featureless though that it is probably worth having GPS as back-up.

Have fun.

In reply to SenzuBean:

When I did my ML, one of the sections the team at PYB spent a lot of time stressing the seriousness of, was river crossing. Dartmoor has loads of streams that swell quickly and suddenly into dangerous crossings after a heavy downpour. Often after you've passed them, blocking a retreat. I recall a Tor to Tor event being cancelled, with parties helicoptered off for this reason. This coupled with the nightmarish nav warrants a place in my opinion