UKC

When you're trying to piece together a climb, or when falling/failing in the same place - what do you use as the crucial feedback that it's time to stop both on that day and/or on the problem?

I get to a point I'm doing worse than the last attempt but still have a nagging feeling I gave up to soon and won't get it if I don't keep trying. I don't feel easy stopping for the day or giving up. (roped)

Weirdly, I think I give up too quickly on boulder problems because it all feels more 'bitty' and playful!

In reply to flopsicle:


How long do you rest when you reach this point? I found for myself that if I have a good rest when I get to this point - an hour at least - then I recover enough to have a couple of more good attempts before having to give up for the day.

In reply to Willi Crater:

Good point! Never as long as an hour - climbing time is like gold dust....

In reply to flopsicle:

Sounds like your pacing between goes needs work.

Make up your mind if you are training or performing.

If training, give yourself 3-4mins rest then have another burn, if performing rest 10-15mins or greater to recover, just don't get cold and size up.

BW
Alex

In reply to flopsicle:
That makes a lot of sense, I was all over the shop this eve. It was very cold and I'd get nattering in between attempts, get goosebumps start to shiver, do some brushing or an easy then hit it again, or just come down, wait for pump to fade then get on it straight away.

I'd still be interested in rules of thumb for when to jack it for the day, or even to back off a problem completely.

In reply to flopsicle:

I usually work on three solid tries to fall on sport routes. Then leave it for at least a day and think about what I am doing/getting wrong.
Trad is gear dependant, good gear as above, iffy gear involves a lot of down climbing.

In reply to flopsicle:

http://betamonkeys.co.uk/fingers/

In reply to Ramblin dave:

or this http://betamonkeys.co.uk/warm/

In reply to flopsicle:

Are you talking about a route or boulder problem here?

With both if you know you're too tired to do it you can still keep practicing the moves, maybe not the crux moves necessarily. Think of it as information gathering. The more information you have (like the subtleties not just basic how to do a move) the more chance you'll have when you return.

Another measure is stop when you are having to thrash through the moves and not do them as powerfully as before. Not only will it not get you anywhere you could injure yourself too.

A third criteria is stop when you're not having fun.

There is a guide which states something like rest for ten times longer than you spent on the rock. Not sure how useful that is though since you might fall off feeling relatively fresh because of a foot slip or maybe because you're completely spent. And the climbing could be anything from a continuous power endurance sprint or it might be broken up with rests. So its not a hard and fast rule.

On a hard sport route at your limit 45 minutes to an hour is fairly normal resting time assuming you've given it a really good go.

In reply to flopsicle:

When boredom sets in usually!

In reply to stp:
Cheers. I think on boulder problems I know I give up too soon but am working on it.

Roped stuff is just short indoor climbs but I've begun to get the benefit of working stuff I didn't have a prayer of getting even in a handful of goes and that's where I've hmmmed and harrred over how far to push it once really feeling the effects of previous efforts.

The advice from last week had the effect of making me take the pauses between more seriously and that definitely increased the time I was productively working on my home made challenge (got my first f6c a few weeks ago and came back to the panel last week to try and work the same route but just features for feet to consolidate). I was really pleased with being able to do more productively and worked ALL the moves, linking all bar the last move. By the time I called it quits I only had 5 minutes left anyway - still went to finish on a F6a which I dogged due to lack of oomph, it did tell me that I'd called it right to pull off the project though.

My climbing time is often limited so it adds to pressure to use it well, in addition, it's indoors so it's get it done or it'll be gone!

BTW - love the betamonkeys!

In reply to flopsicle:

If I fall or fail once, I think "Oops, got that wrong, try again". If the same happens a second time but I'm well established on the route I will try again. If it happens a third time I accept that it's too hard for me, even indoors, but then I'm an old traditionalist who doesn't like redpointing. By the same token however I don't get hung up on it if someone gives me a bit of beta and with very few exceptions I don't like repeating routes.

I have the same problem with mountain biking. If I've done a trail a couple of times I get bored with it. I think I must have a very, very low boredom threshold

Al

In reply to flopsicle:

I give up when it stops being fun or rewarding or interesting or I'm getting worse or starting to get hurt or tired or it's dark or I'm cold and hungry... whichever excuse comes to me first

Some projects I've kept going back to week after week until they're done, some I've tried over several seasons, one or two are rapidly heading toward the second decade of occasional sessions. They're never really given up on and occasionally on those special days where everything goes right I make a bit of progress or even tick one off the list.

With problems you should be able to do in a session try walking away sooner, do something different or easier for a break, have a sit down with your shoes off and see how others get on then go back to it fresh.

With routes I generally have one or two goes working it bolt to bolt without too much repetition of the moves then 2 to 3 redpoint attempts in me assuming a short-ish session and I'm redpointing something that's multi-session hard for me. A fitter person might manage more goes.
jk

In reply to flopsicle:

Thanks for the clarification.

I think indoor routes are different again for several reasons:

1. We tend to have shorter sessions there (unlike going to the crag for a day)
2. Switching between belaying and climbing can happen really fast and you get very little rest.
3. There's the thought that this is a training session to get fitter/stronger rather than trying to tick a route.
4. The routes don't have names or permanence like on rock.
5. We tend to go back to our local walls far more regularly than a specific crag.

Because of this I've sometimes wondered what the best approach indoors is. I think for training value you definitely want to be climbing above your onsight grade a fair bit of the time. But at the same time I now think getting too pumped is counterproductive. If you get too pumped then you need to rest for too long and in a short session this means you do less climbing (or end up trying routes that are just too easy).

A lot of climbers seem to just stick to easier routes and do a fair bit of volume. Whilst good for endurance I don't think its that useful for getting stronger or upping one's grade. You end able to do more climbing but not necessarily harder climbing, and harder routes feature harder climbing, not more climbing.

My current approach is to try harder routes but with rests. If you do a route with one or two hangs you can think of it like doing several boulder problems in short succession. I try not to climb until I'm completely pumped and take a strategic rest before that happens. You can vary the time hanging to make each section just manageable. Gradually over successive sessions you can whittle the rests down to none, though usually at the start of the session, if its a route near your limit. The other tactic I use is to switch between different styles of routes each go. One time I might be doing a juggy roof, the next a crimpy wall. Because you're using different muscles in different ways (to some degree at least) its a bit like having more rest.

In reply to flopsicle:
I rarely bother properly redpointing indoor routes - just don't feel inspired by them and feel the nature of them is pretty rough on the joints compared to outdoor climbing where the holds are more insecure, and you're less able to bone down on them repeatedly.

Nowadays if I want to try a hard indoor route (for me) I'll pick one just 2 grades or so above my onsight grade and see if I can do it in 3 goes, with good rests (i.e. 15 minutes or so until I feel de-pumped) between goes. If I can't, I'll leave it and maybe try it once or twice in future sessions, after I've spent some time getting a bit stronger or fitter in the meantime.
This contrasts with outdoors where I would redpoint 4 grades harder than onsight, have more goes and rest much longer, until I felt fully recovered.

If I'm falling at the same place I would analyse whether it was because I was making mistakes and wasn't fluid enough on this or earlier sections of the route - in which case more goes are needed - or whether I was just getting too pumped by the sequence or didn't feel strong enough on the moves. In the latter two examples more training might be needed. Strength in particular needs to be trained fresh rather than thrashing around on the same moves over and over.