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The latest version of the Rockfax App brings even more great areas to your iPhone, including Kalymnos, North wales Winter and Haute Provence, as well as adding some useability improvements. Read more
3
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
Looking forward to the Android release.
Are there any thoughts on discounts for those who already own the books themselves?
Looking forward to the Android release.
Are there any thoughts on discounts for those who already own the books themselves?
2
In reply to mattcooperkay:
Hi Matt
It is impossible for us to know who owns a book so we we will never be able to offer discounts for books that have already been purchased.
Even for future purchases it currently isn't possible to offer in-App purchase discounts via the Apple App Store, however there are so many requests by developers for this to be added (and I think it is possible via Android) that I anticipate it may be possible some time soon.
Alan
> Are there any thoughts on discounts for those who already own the books themselves?
Hi Matt
It is impossible for us to know who owns a book so we we will never be able to offer discounts for books that have already been purchased.
Even for future purchases it currently isn't possible to offer in-App purchase discounts via the Apple App Store, however there are so many requests by developers for this to be added (and I think it is possible via Android) that I anticipate it may be possible some time soon.
Alan
2
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
The way to do it is to create two packages:
com.appname.fullPriceMallorca
com.appname.freePriceMallorca
Both packages will have same content, only difference is in price.
In app then person click to buy Mallorca app will check if person already owns a book (scan, code etc.). If he does app will get him com.appname.freePriceMallorca. If not app will offer com.appname.fullPriceMallorca.
In that way developer is not breaking any rules and it is reasonably easy to implement and support in future.
Another common way of doing that is to sell in app coins. Then someone buys your book they get a code providing coins as well. Equal to the among of book price in app. But there's an exploit allowing user to spend coins on something else. You will have no control.
I never used this method myself, but I seen a lot of apps passing Apple Nazi with it.
The way to do it is to create two packages:
com.appname.fullPriceMallorca
com.appname.freePriceMallorca
Both packages will have same content, only difference is in price.
In app then person click to buy Mallorca app will check if person already owns a book (scan, code etc.). If he does app will get him com.appname.freePriceMallorca. If not app will offer com.appname.fullPriceMallorca.
In that way developer is not breaking any rules and it is reasonably easy to implement and support in future.
Another common way of doing that is to sell in app coins. Then someone buys your book they get a code providing coins as well. Equal to the among of book price in app. But there's an exploit allowing user to spend coins on something else. You will have no control.
I never used this method myself, but I seen a lot of apps passing Apple Nazi with it.
In reply to nutme:
As far as we are aware, this is not allowed by Apple. They are incredibly protective of the App environment and I can't imagine them allowing products to be 'free' in-App where codes may be being sold elsewhere. I am sure there are Apps that do this, but we also know of Apps that have been thrown out of the App Store for a practice like this.
When you also consider that we have over 500 packages now which take ages to compile and upload, plus the increase in book price (surprisingly significant) of including a unique code, it doesn't seem worth it at present. Especially since we anticipate a proper solution to the problem sometime in the future.
I don't know about this but I suspect it would make it extremely difficult to attribute payments to specific products which is required for us to properly reimburse our authors.
There is also the more fundamental point that, as far as we are concerned, these are different products which have effort and money associated with producing them. We are happy to offer discounts but the 'book with free App' option is not ever likely to be on offer.
Alan
> In app then person click to buy Mallorca app will check if person already owns a book (scan, code etc.). If he does app will get him com.appname.freePriceMallorca. If not app will offer com.appname.fullPriceMallorca.
> In that way developer is not breaking any rules and it is reasonably easy to implement and support in future.
> In that way developer is not breaking any rules and it is reasonably easy to implement and support in future.
As far as we are aware, this is not allowed by Apple. They are incredibly protective of the App environment and I can't imagine them allowing products to be 'free' in-App where codes may be being sold elsewhere. I am sure there are Apps that do this, but we also know of Apps that have been thrown out of the App Store for a practice like this.
When you also consider that we have over 500 packages now which take ages to compile and upload, plus the increase in book price (surprisingly significant) of including a unique code, it doesn't seem worth it at present. Especially since we anticipate a proper solution to the problem sometime in the future.
> Another common way of doing that is to sell in app coins. Then someone buys your book they get a code providing coins as well. Equal to the among of book price in app. But there's an exploit allowing user to spend coins on something else. You will have no control.
I don't know about this but I suspect it would make it extremely difficult to attribute payments to specific products which is required for us to properly reimburse our authors.
There is also the more fundamental point that, as far as we are concerned, these are different products which have effort and money associated with producing them. We are happy to offer discounts but the 'book with free App' option is not ever likely to be on offer.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I would argue that it is same product with different ways you are selling and delivering it. But at same time understand that if you are able to charge twice for same content you will do it as long as it generates any profit. I would to.
> There is also the more fundamental point that, as far as we are concerned, these are different products which have effort and money associated with producing them. We are happy to offer discounts but the 'book with free App' option is not ever likely to be on offer.
I would argue that it is same product with different ways you are selling and delivering it. But at same time understand that if you are able to charge twice for same content you will do it as long as it generates any profit. I would to.
1
In reply to nutme:
It is far from the same content. For a start, the content is different in many of the App packages with extra information, secondly, when you buy a guidebook or app, you aren't buying the data, you are buying the presentation of the data. This is different between the formats.
Another way of looking at it would be to suggest that, when buying the new edition of a guidebook, you only pay the fraction of the cost correlating to new information if you owned the old version of the guidebook. I can't imagine anyone ever doing that.
Alan
> I would argue that it is same product with different ways you are selling and delivering it. But at same time understand that if you are able to charge twice for same content you will do it as long as it generates any profit. I would to.
It is far from the same content. For a start, the content is different in many of the App packages with extra information, secondly, when you buy a guidebook or app, you aren't buying the data, you are buying the presentation of the data. This is different between the formats.
Another way of looking at it would be to suggest that, when buying the new edition of a guidebook, you only pay the fraction of the cost correlating to new information if you owned the old version of the guidebook. I can't imagine anyone ever doing that.
Alan
5
In reply to nutme:
Also, of course, if you do think it is the same content, then there would be no need to buy the version you don't own.
Alan
> I would argue that it is same product with different ways you are selling and delivering it. But at same time understand that if you are able to charge twice for same content you will do it as long as it generates any profit. I would to.
Also, of course, if you do think it is the same content, then there would be no need to buy the version you don't own.
Alan
3
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
Hi,
I see on the Rockfax website that Cote d'Azur is due to be added in March. Just wondering is that a realistic deadline seeing as there's only a couple of days left?
Heading off to SE France at the end of April, would be handy to have.
Cheers,
R.
Hi,
I see on the Rockfax website that Cote d'Azur is due to be added in March. Just wondering is that a realistic deadline seeing as there's only a couple of days left?
Heading off to SE France at the end of April, would be handy to have.
Cheers,
R.
In reply to RoK:
Hi Ronan, we've hit a couple of stumbling blocks preparing the data from this book for the app, but it's nothing serious – I expect to have it ready in the next week or so, definitely before your trip at the end of April.
Hi Ronan, we've hit a couple of stumbling blocks preparing the data from this book for the app, but it's nothing serious – I expect to have it ready in the next week or so, definitely before your trip at the end of April.
3
In reply to Stephen Horne - UKC:
Thanks Stephen, appreciate the reply. I am fully aware how things slip in this world. I have the book anyways, just be nice to have one thing less to lug about.
Thanks again.
Thanks Stephen, appreciate the reply. I am fully aware how things slip in this world. I have the book anyways, just be nice to have one thing less to lug about.
Thanks again.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
It was quite interesting being in Finale with a big group this last week (which has an app guide "for free" with a guidebook scratchcard code) and seeing how different people in the group used each and when (or didn't use it).
Personally, I think in 5-10 years time you'll be reflecting on this strategy quite differently. The underlying IP you're exploiting is in essence the same (of which in the app a lot of the extra content is user generated), the commercialisation and delivery of the underlying IP is different and different per user group (book only, app only, app+book, old book owner etc). I understand your rationale for saying it's completely different IP, but despite me thinking it's a well built app, not solving this commercial problem is the main reason that I (and others I know) don't use the apps. I think there's a lot more secondary brand value in people downloading and using apps (and generating more content in them) than you're currently realising and I suspect the app consumers (and potential future users) feel they're primarily paying for convenience of delivery and interaction; where you feel you're primarily charging them for different content. Those two positions have two very different perceived 'value for money' price points.
Is the app data a certain "one-off" lifetime payment? Or will we be charged at a later date if you do a major update?
It was quite interesting being in Finale with a big group this last week (which has an app guide "for free" with a guidebook scratchcard code) and seeing how different people in the group used each and when (or didn't use it).
Personally, I think in 5-10 years time you'll be reflecting on this strategy quite differently. The underlying IP you're exploiting is in essence the same (of which in the app a lot of the extra content is user generated), the commercialisation and delivery of the underlying IP is different and different per user group (book only, app only, app+book, old book owner etc). I understand your rationale for saying it's completely different IP, but despite me thinking it's a well built app, not solving this commercial problem is the main reason that I (and others I know) don't use the apps. I think there's a lot more secondary brand value in people downloading and using apps (and generating more content in them) than you're currently realising and I suspect the app consumers (and potential future users) feel they're primarily paying for convenience of delivery and interaction; where you feel you're primarily charging them for different content. Those two positions have two very different perceived 'value for money' price points.
Is the app data a certain "one-off" lifetime payment? Or will we be charged at a later date if you do a major update?
1
In reply to JR:
Thanks John for that interesting post.
As far as we are aware, this isn't allowed officially in-App under the rules of the App Store. You can get round it by having the code verified on an external web site, but that brings down the usability of the App. We were very keen from the off to have an App that people can buy crags, while out there, without having to enter card details etc. ie. using the full Apple framework.
Actually we quite definitely regard the App as the same content delivered in a different way. I have always said that you buy the presentation of the information in a guidebook, not the actual information itself. For example, all our route descriptions are available free of charge on the web sites.
This is something we haven't fully decided yet. It is likely that new books will have new versions which would need to be paid for. I appreciate that some might find this difficult to deal with but we would find a way of keeping the old data live so you could consider it in the same way as you consider a book.
What would be great is if Apple could come up with some way of making in-App purchases more flexible so that discounts can be offered and deals. Then new information could be offered like a software upgrade.
Alan
Thanks John for that interesting post.
> It was quite interesting being in Finale with a big group this last week (which has an app guide "for free" with a guidebook scratchcard code) and seeing how different people in the group used each and when (or didn't use it).
As far as we are aware, this isn't allowed officially in-App under the rules of the App Store. You can get round it by having the code verified on an external web site, but that brings down the usability of the App. We were very keen from the off to have an App that people can buy crags, while out there, without having to enter card details etc. ie. using the full Apple framework.
> ..... I suspect the app consumers (and potential future users) feel they're primarily paying for convenience of delivery and interaction; where you feel you're primarily charging them for different content. Those two positions have two very different perceived 'value for money' price points.
Actually we quite definitely regard the App as the same content delivered in a different way. I have always said that you buy the presentation of the information in a guidebook, not the actual information itself. For example, all our route descriptions are available free of charge on the web sites.
> Is the app data a certain "one-off" lifetime payment? Or will we be charged at a later date if you do a major update?
This is something we haven't fully decided yet. It is likely that new books will have new versions which would need to be paid for. I appreciate that some might find this difficult to deal with but we would find a way of keeping the old data live so you could consider it in the same way as you consider a book.
What would be great is if Apple could come up with some way of making in-App purchases more flexible so that discounts can be offered and deals. Then new information could be offered like a software upgrade.
Alan
2
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
'For example, all our route descriptions are available free of charge on the web sites'
But not your excellent topo diagrams.
'What would be great is if Apple could come up with some way of making in-App purchases more flexible so that discounts can be offered and deals'
Apple are notorious for prioritising their own profits at the expense of both their customers and their suppliers.
'For example, all our route descriptions are available free of charge on the web sites'
But not your excellent topo diagrams.
'What would be great is if Apple could come up with some way of making in-App purchases more flexible so that discounts can be offered and deals'
Apple are notorious for prioritising their own profits at the expense of both their customers and their suppliers.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Sure, but I'm saying the purchasing decision is definitely a huge amount preference, UX and convenience, not just presentation. There's essentially nothing available free of charge in the app but if the "free" information that was available online was there, my logbook, route comments and logging functionality, I'd probably log routes in there. That would at least get me (and others) using the app more, and more likely to upgrade to access the topos and other "presentations". It's quite rare these days not to be able to access UKC at the crag on 3G/4G across the whole of Europe so it's not like that free data isn't broadly available if one wants to access it at the crag.
Sure, the apple framework is pretty restrictive if you're wanting to do it the way you are. Did you ever consider a subscriptions model (which is a big shift though I'm sure you have enough sales data to model whether it's viable)? You could buy app access for set periods of time for trip guides, with discounted, recurring subscription bundles also available for the whole UK/areas etc? Almost certainly less painful at the consumer end if you're going to charge for major upgrades and for single trips where you might not want to pay €30-40 for a guide for a week but you might want to see the data for a month or two to plan your trip and climb on it.
Anyway, keep up the good work...
> Actually we quite definitely regard the App as the same content delivered in a different way. I have always said that you buy the presentation of the information in a guidebook, not the actual information itself. For example, all our route descriptions are available free of charge on the web sites.
Sure, but I'm saying the purchasing decision is definitely a huge amount preference, UX and convenience, not just presentation. There's essentially nothing available free of charge in the app but if the "free" information that was available online was there, my logbook, route comments and logging functionality, I'd probably log routes in there. That would at least get me (and others) using the app more, and more likely to upgrade to access the topos and other "presentations". It's quite rare these days not to be able to access UKC at the crag on 3G/4G across the whole of Europe so it's not like that free data isn't broadly available if one wants to access it at the crag.
> What would be great is if Apple could come up with some way of making in-App purchases more flexible so that discounts can be offered and deals. Then new information could be offered like a software upgrade.
Sure, the apple framework is pretty restrictive if you're wanting to do it the way you are. Did you ever consider a subscriptions model (which is a big shift though I'm sure you have enough sales data to model whether it's viable)? You could buy app access for set periods of time for trip guides, with discounted, recurring subscription bundles also available for the whole UK/areas etc? Almost certainly less painful at the consumer end if you're going to charge for major upgrades and for single trips where you might not want to pay €30-40 for a guide for a week but you might want to see the data for a month or two to plan your trip and climb on it.
Anyway, keep up the good work...
In reply to JR:
Small point, but there is actually plenty available on the App for free - 1 reasonable crag per area, full access to UKC Listing and massive Crag databases, plus the weekly Top Photos.
However, the other things you ask for are obviously extremely attractive, all all in the pipeline and part of the long term plan. First off will be access to the voting, then we hope to add full route logging as well. This is quite a difficult thing to do though due to the size of the database we are dealing with.
We have umm..ed, and ahh...d a lot about this during development. It would solve a lot of problems - like the ability to offer discounts, creating a longer term system for upgrades - but it also presents us with a lot of problems, and would almost certainly have to be quite expensive to the end user in order to make economic sense for us. We haven't ruled it out though as a future option.
Alan
> Sure, but I'm saying the purchasing decision is definitely a huge amount preference, UX and convenience, not just presentation. There's essentially nothing available free of charge in the app but if the "free" information that was available online was there, my logbook, route comments and logging functionality, I'd probably log routes in there. That would at least get me (and others) using the app more, and more likely to upgrade to access the topos and other "presentations". It's quite rare these days not to be able to access UKC at the crag on 3G/4G across the whole of Europe so it's not like that free data isn't broadly available if one wants to access it at the crag.
Small point, but there is actually plenty available on the App for free - 1 reasonable crag per area, full access to UKC Listing and massive Crag databases, plus the weekly Top Photos.
However, the other things you ask for are obviously extremely attractive, all all in the pipeline and part of the long term plan. First off will be access to the voting, then we hope to add full route logging as well. This is quite a difficult thing to do though due to the size of the database we are dealing with.
> Sure, the apple framework is pretty restrictive if you're wanting to do it the way you are. Did you ever consider a subscriptions model?
We have umm..ed, and ahh...d a lot about this during development. It would solve a lot of problems - like the ability to offer discounts, creating a longer term system for upgrades - but it also presents us with a lot of problems, and would almost certainly have to be quite expensive to the end user in order to make economic sense for us. We haven't ruled it out though as a future option.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Sure I get that, tho I don't access it through there as I don't know what is free per area, so I don't bother to check.
Good to hear! Personally, I think that's where I'd have started, got users and monetised it later...
No doubt it's problematic, but purchasing pain for the end-user is a lot less by paying a smaller amount more frequently than paying a fairly large one off payment, especially for something you already "own on paper".
Good Luck!
> Small point, but there is actually plenty available on the App for free - 1 reasonable crag per area, full access to UKC Listing and massive Crag databases, plus the weekly Top Photos.
Sure I get that, tho I don't access it through there as I don't know what is free per area, so I don't bother to check.
> However, the other things you ask for are obviously extremely attractive, all all in the pipeline and part of the long term plan. First off will be access to the voting, then we hope to add full route logging as well. This is quite a difficult thing to do though due to the size of the database we are dealing with.
Good to hear! Personally, I think that's where I'd have started, got users and monetised it later...
> We have umm..ed, and ahh...d a lot about this during development. It would solve a lot of problems - like the ability to offer discounts, creating a longer term system for upgrades - but it also presents us with a lot of problems, and would almost certainly have to be quite expensive to the end user in order to make economic sense for us. We haven't ruled it out though as a future option.
No doubt it's problematic, but purchasing pain for the end-user is a lot less by paying a smaller amount more frequently than paying a fairly large one off payment, especially for something you already "own on paper".
Good Luck!
In reply to JR:
It is under 'Downloads' tap on an area and tap 'Download Sample' with the name of the area underneath.
Yes, we could have done it that way, but the Rockfax data is really tight and solid, and the UKC data vast and slightly ropey, so it seemed easier this way round.
We are actually quite pleased with the App take up - over 4000 installs so far and purchases in each of the last 2 months out did purchases in the launch month of October last year when there were almost 2200 installs in one month.
Alan
> Sure I get that, tho I don't access it through there as I don't know what is free per area, so I don't bother to check.
It is under 'Downloads' tap on an area and tap 'Download Sample' with the name of the area underneath.
> Good to hear! Personally, I think that's where I'd have started, got users and monetised it later...
Yes, we could have done it that way, but the Rockfax data is really tight and solid, and the UKC data vast and slightly ropey, so it seemed easier this way round.
We are actually quite pleased with the App take up - over 4000 installs so far and purchases in each of the last 2 months out did purchases in the launch month of October last year when there were almost 2200 installs in one month.
Alan
1
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:
Hi Alan
Used the app last week in Catalunya. One issue I found is that i can't get photo topos on my iPhone - they do however appear on the iPad. All I get on the phone is line diagrams against a black background?
Is this correct ? Is there some setting I've not changed. Ended up taking photos of the page in the guidebook when we did a multi-pitch route at Vilanova - the topo i can see on the iPad is exactly want I wanted
Hi Alan
Used the app last week in Catalunya. One issue I found is that i can't get photo topos on my iPhone - they do however appear on the iPad. All I get on the phone is line diagrams against a black background?
Is this correct ? Is there some setting I've not changed. Ended up taking photos of the page in the guidebook when we did a multi-pitch route at Vilanova - the topo i can see on the iPad is exactly want I wanted
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Hey Chris,
Can you let me know what topo(s) this is effecting? Also are you seeing this on any other crags? With this information it will be easier for us to investigate any potential issues.
The fact that you are seeing the route lines and you are also able to use this topo on your iPad suggests its probably a data issue and you are likely missing some of the topo image data on your phone. Try reinstalling. This might fix the issue.
Cheers,
Martin
Hey Chris,
Can you let me know what topo(s) this is effecting? Also are you seeing this on any other crags? With this information it will be easier for us to investigate any potential issues.
The fact that you are seeing the route lines and you are also able to use this topo on your iPad suggests its probably a data issue and you are likely missing some of the topo image data on your phone. Try reinstalling. This might fix the issue.
Cheers,
Martin
In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:
Appears to affect all 14 crags in the Catalunya bundle.
Just downloaded the Ariege and Kalymnos samples, and they work just fine. But I can now see that crag pics from the Catalan crags are missing at each stage.
Will delete and reload
Appears to affect all 14 crags in the Catalunya bundle.
Just downloaded the Ariege and Kalymnos samples, and they work just fine. But I can now see that crag pics from the Catalan crags are missing at each stage.
Will delete and reload
1
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