UKC

So this is really odd. (I'm going to talk European shoe sizes because there are so many confusing scales and this one seems the most accurate)

My feet are 272 and 274 mm respectively from heel to toe. This averages at shoe size 42.45 and for many years I've worn street shoes in size 43.

I currently have size 44 Scarpa Velocity V shoes. They are so tight that after a few hours of climbing, I have to stop because of toe pain and it takes multiple days to recover. There's no way I could go climbing 2 days in a row because of this.

I spent much of today trying on shoes and I found that I need size 45 or 46 for my toes to be only slightly bunched up inside the shoes.

So why is it that most people take shoes smaller than their street size while I need them to be 2-3 sizes bigger? My feet don't look any different from other people's.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Sounds like those rockshoes really don't fit! You're doing yourself some damage, get some comfy shoes, at once.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I find that the toe box shape makes a huge differance

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'd second that. Seems likely that the shape of your foot is different to the shoes you're trying to wear. Try other makes/models - best go to a specialised climbing shop. Also pay attention to whether your foot is wider - you'll want a shoe to accommodate that.

In reply to phil456:

It appears so. I tried on a pair of Evolve Shaman today and the fact that the toe box is really accommodating made a huge difference. That's top of my what-to-buy shortlist at the moment.

Can you recommend any other shoes with a toe box which might help with my problem? The Shaman fits really well but it's a little more aggressive than I was hoping for.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I have wide feet with a high arch and big toe that is the longest.
For performance, Scarpa Vapour V in 46, slightly narrow but the toe shape is acceptable
Comfort, Sportiva Tarantula in 46.5, they have stretched a bit, but are wide enough and comfortable

When I am near a climbing shop I pop in and try different shoes even if I don't need them as when I do it's a major effort to find some

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Well, aggressive's not bad if it's also the most comfortable option! One of the reasons people often advise against rushing to get aggressive shoes when you're starting out is that they're often less comfortable, but that's not always the case.

I have bad bunion pain in the big toe joint of one foot, and have found that I tend to get least pain in shoes which are at least mildly down-turned and medium-stiff; flat shoes where the toes can get bent back (which might be other people's comfy shoes) are much worse for me.

Obviously the downside of down-turned shoes is that they're not great on slabs or anything requiring smearing. But if they're actually the ones that cause you least pain, that's a very good reason to go for them.

Also downturned shoes will tend to flatten out at least a bit over time, so they will get less aggressive.

In reply to slab_happy:

I ended up getting the shamans after trying on at least 4 other shoes today and swapping backwards and forwards between them. I wasn't intending to get something this aggressive so early in my climbing career but they feel right on my feet.

They're really no where near as sensitive as my velocity V shoes but I'll get used to that I'm sure.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

I can't but think that you've likely just bought them in an enormous size. Shamans should not be comfortable.

Then again, if you climb more because you like your cool shoes, who loses?

In reply to MikeMarcus:

Hi Mike, The 27cm or so you quoted equates to a size 44.5 according to the conversion chart I just found online. Could you have been under-sizing all of this time??

Unfortunately, the whole sizing thing isn't that simple anyway since there are different starting points in measuring sizes of shoes. Iirc it can be based on: the size of foot the final shoe might fit; the size of the last the shoe is built on, or the actual dimensions of the shoe. The same shoe would get a progressively bigger measurement as you progressed through that list.

None of this is much direct help but I hope is can reassure you that you did the right thing by disregarding the number and trying lots on.

One other thing to be aware of. Most toes happily bend at the middle knuckle but I found one person in 10 or 20 had toes that wanted to bend at the joint with the foot instead - they almost invariably got horrible cramp if they tried to scrunch their toes into climbing shoes like the rest of us (normal people). If you are one of these, a lower volume shoe that lets you fit with the toes flat or nearly flat is likely to fit much better.

Hope some of that helps.

In reply to neuromancer:


*tilty hand gestures*

I think it depends on what you mean by "comfortable" (and I've been throwing the word around and probably contributing to the confusion).

I mean, yes, absolutely, an aggressive shoe shouldn't feel like you could go for a walk in it, wear it for hours without a break, etc.. It need to be tight all over. It shouldn't be "comfortable" like a pair of trainers.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be causing foot pain that takes days to recover from. For example, for me, my tight down-turned shoes are significantly more "comfortable" (in terms of not triggering sharp foot pain) than soft flat smear-y shoes. They're tight and I'll take them off as much as possible, but they feel right and work with my foot shape and issues.

So, "feels right" (after trying lots of different pairs) seems like a good sign to me. And the Shamans have an interestingly-designed toe box, with extra space for the big toe knuckle -- could be this is what MikeMarcus needs.

In reply to MikeMarcus:

How about confy LS TC Pro shoes? A low toebox is heaven.

Works like charm for me. My sneakers are 42-43 and climbing shoes are 42(+/-0,5).

My old broken big toe joint is very happy and let me climb around 6(soon 7 without pain.

In reply to slab_happy:

Of course, but - and I don't put myself up to be some kind of climbing guru here - but if you've not climbing outside of 5's, and you're saying things like "So why is it that most people take shoes smaller than their street size while I need them to be 2-3 sizes bigger? My feet don't look any different from other people's." - I'd argue you're just not used to wearing and fitting rock shoes properly.

I don't really see the logic in "oh look this one specific really downturned shoe is a great fit [if i size it 3 sizes larger than most people do]". Most shoes will be comfortable if you size them five times too big. Doesn't mean they fit you. Also, it will make your climbing a lot harder as soft shoes rely upon tension in the rand to provide support to stand on holds. If you don't have a midsole and you don't have tension in the rand, it's like trying to put c3 crampons on bananas. You're gonna have a bad time.

In reply to neuromancer:


Bouldering V2-3, according to his profile.

And in a previous thread, he mentioned that after climbing, he had continuous pain in his big toes for a week or ten days. That's a different league from the normal discomfort you'd get from tight climbing shoes.

Which is why my brain went to "maybe this is a specific fit issue", versus "maybe this is someone who doesn't understand that climbing shoes are meant to be tight and not comfortable in the ordinary sense" . But in the end, MikeMarcus is the only one who can determine which perspective is right in his case, and that is a question he must reflect on and contemplate inwardly. *g*

I completely agree that over-sized aggressive shoes are worse than useless, though. I have seen a few people in Sportiva Solutions sized like clown shoes, and it doesn't seem to do a lot for their climbing ...

In reply to slab_happy:

Oh well, I guess I missed that thread.

My diagnosis would be to get shoes that are not lined with rubber above the joint of the big toe - that way they can stretch where his toe knuckle flexes. (not a shaman, but ymmv)

The 'knuckle of the toe pain' does sound a whole lot like what most people experience when they first try and wear shoes that demand their toes are curled to fit.

Then again, it does sort of remind me of a conversation I watched happen between mum+dad+daughter the other day. Both mum and dad were trying to persuade daughter that she needed to choose the shoes that fit her, not the ones that were brightly coloured and cool looking. I sort of wanted to stop them and say "It doesn't bloody matter if they fit, if they make her want to go climbing more give her a pair of futuras".

In reply to neuromancer:

You're making a lot of assumptions about me neuromancer. But as long as it helps you retain a sense of superiority I suppose all is fine.

In reply to MikeMarcus:
I hope you enjoy your ultra-high-end competition bouldering velcro slippers sized several sizes too big and that your pain recedes and you continue to enjoy climbing.

No superiority here; I just wear what fits my foot shape. I can't get my feet into, say, shamans because they are narrow, so i would have to size them to my street shoe size and have enough space to fit a chalk ball in the heel with my foot.

If you read my posts I said twice that I don't really give a shit if someone who can't climb v1 wears a pair of solutions (not that this is you) - if anything if they climb more then great! - I just offered actually honest advice which was that buying aggressive shoes sized too big is less likely to solve toe pain in the long run better than buying less aggressive shoes sized appropriately, especially if you have no need for aggressive shoes.

In reply to neuromancer:
I hope your ego is suitably bolstered by your certainly that you know more about the fit of a stranger's footware (which you've never seen and been given little information with which to form an opinion on), than he does himself - As it happens my new shoes were fit by a climbing instructor.

I also hope that you consider patronising someone (who you've never met and know nothing about), to be a valid and constructive use of your time.

For those of a less condescending nature, I thank you for your advice. After four or so climbing sessions on the Shamans I've realised that the problem lies with the fact that my toe knuckles swell considerably when warmed up from exercise, and the extra room above the toe accommodates this without compressing my toes into the front of the shoe or forcing me to size too big to allow for this. I think I also might have a somewhat similar "abnormality" to the that which IainWhitehouse described.

As a result of my pain-free new shoes I can climb for longer, and more often than I could before. My footwork also seems to be improving at a faster rate.