UKC

With impeccable timing, our gas boiler has just given up the ghost. It provides, or more accurately used to provide, central heating and hot water that is stored in a tank; so a conventional boiler rather than a combi.

A chap will be round later to look at it, take a small intake of breath, confirmed that it's knackered, tell us that we need a new one and, inevitably, say that he won't be able to install it until the new year. This will be inconvenient, but I'm sure we'll cope.

So before I go boiler shopping, does anyone have any recommendations of conventional gas boilers that are good, or of ones to avoid? I don't want to replace it with a combi as I quite like having a conventional system and an airing cupboard is proving very useful.

Ta folks,

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

If you have to go down the combi route the advantages are unlimited hot water (at a cost though) so no argument about who took the hot water. But filling a bath takes 2 or 3 times as long. You get to use all of the airing cupboard, worth having a small radiator plumbed in but of course this only works in winter. Water tank etc cleared out of the attic.

Not sure about any cost gains of only heating water when needed as opposed to filling a hot tank and gradually loosing the heat (so that the airing cupboard warm).

If I had the choice now I would again change to a combi. But we were having a lot of other work done so the disruption and cost of changing the tanks and pipework was not so much an issue. In your case just a new boiler sounds a lot quicker and easier.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Worcester-Bosch or Valliant are probably the best manufacturers on the market. There is a Which report out there somewhere. I am a building services engineer and we tend to specify Worcester for most domestic projects.
Do you know what the output of your old boiler was?

Another thing to note is that your airing cupboard may become useless. Your old boiler probably gave off quite a bit of heat but a new one wont. We have had customers complain of this before. This does save you money on wasted energy though!

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Worcester Bosch seem to be the best of the common makes out there.
If it's fitted by a Worcester Bosch approved engineer. the 5 year warranty is extended to 8 years.

Had one fitted just over a year ago for £1865.00; this included changing the system to a pressurised system from a pumped open system and having thermostatic valves fitted on 10 radiators.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:



I replaced my boiler/tank last year with a combi. Whilst I have only minor regrets loosing the tank, my combi is actually designed to allow it to heat a hot water tank. The settings are all in the programming unit. My heating engineer did specifically say he could install a hot tank if that's what I wanted. I chose not too and went for an higher performance combi that is over specced for heating but can provide hot water faster than anything I could use e.g. Including two shower outlets running together.

Yes, there is a bit more delay than a tank, but not that much in practice. I actually get niggled more by the start stop it does by every on/off of the taps! There is also a setting to minimise that though (if I used it) called a comfort setting where it actually store a small amount of water heated in the boiler itself. You also can get boilers with a "built in" hot tanks at the back of the combi which apparently is effectively the same as a boiler and hot tank (save that only little hot water is stored so if gas off, you wouldn't have enough for a bath or shower etc, but minimises the delay of hot water to tap as the combi starts the heating the instant that the tap is opened.

On balance if I was replacing again I would consider going for the combi with the small attached hot tank, but not separate boiler/hot tank. The latter though is more useful say when the boiler is remote from the main useage taps. One of my neighbours put his combi at the other end of the house from his bathroom etc, and said it takes minutes to get the water to the shower. He was a bit miffed when I said they can go anywhere now including the attic!

Anyway, I would suggest keep an open mind at this stage.

In reply to m0unt41n:

Switching from an open system to a pressurised one does away with the expansion tank

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

had the same problem last year and got a Worcester compact, got it for free as our old boiler came under the British Gas trade in as the previous one met the very old and not very green requirements. Cost was just for fitting. Had a new radiator done at the same time and full flush of the system. Bills have come down considerably.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Worcester Bosch boilers are not cheap but are very well-regarded. I have one (combi, but I'm sure their system boilers are as good).

As something you buy once in a blue moon, it's probably worth paying for quality if you can find a way to afford it.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Viessman are also well-regarded.

Steer clear of Ferroli.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

I feel your pain. I had mine replaced yesterday at a cost of £3450

For what it's worth, my old boiler was a Worcester Bosch and I replaced it with a Grant after everyone locally (and two plumbers) said they were the best. Mine's an oil burner though, not sure if they make gas boilers.

In reply to Rob Parsons:



I'd agree with both of those statements, in fact German colleagues say Viessmann are better than Worcester, think Mercedes compared to BMW. I'd also throw Vokera into the mix. Been around for years and seem to last, at least from my anecdotal evidence from friends and family. My dad still has a working combi one which is 20 - 25 years old now and has have *very* little maintenance / trouble during that time.

In reply to Everybody:

Well thank you everyone, there's a lot of good stuff there plus a good deal more to think about. Ours is an open system so moving to a pressurised one is something to consider. Additional expense perhaps but as has been said, we shan't be doing this every day so it's worth getting something good and doing it right.

The house was built 16 years ago and we've been here a bit over two. So far, I've found it to be a solid build but a lot of stuff involved in making the house work - plumbing, electrics and the like - falls into the category of 'cheap to install, expensive to maintain'. So I'll go the extra mile to get something that will hopefully be trouble- and maintenance-free for the years ahead.

But thanks to you all for your contributions, they're most useful and more than I could have hoped for. Hope you all have a warm Christmas!

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Could you get it fixed under a BG contract?

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Not unless we took one out Jim. But I'll have a look!

T.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Grants are the best Oil boilers on the market. I don't believe they have a gas fired range.

In reply to FinlayThomson:

Another in agreement....That's good to know!

In reply to Pursued by a bear:
We have a 6 year old WB combi and cannot really fault it. We do have it serviced every September to give it the best chance for surviving the winter.

Given the choice, I'd go against the trend and put a tank in. Reason is that solar hot water and a back boiler would save me loads - having 2 daughters.....

It's possible to have solar heating and a back boiler with a combi, but would be easier to sell the kids.

Edit to remove some typos.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

I had a baxi (best not let that autocorrect slip through) duotec installed 5 years ago on the recommendation of a council gas fitter who had installed hundreds if not thousands of the same boiler in council houses all over south Wales.
At the time it was half the price of a Bosch equivalent (although the price of Bosch boilers seems to have dropped a bit since) and so far, touching wood, it's been absolutely excellent.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:
My issue with the combi boiler in my home is that it isn't a constant stream of hot water coming into my bath when I occasionally have one, but hot = then cold a bit - hot - etc.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

A vote against Keston.

Other considerations if you are tempted to combi:
1. You can't add any other heat source (e.g. stove and back boiler or solar tubes or solar PV)
2. If mains water pressure is low, showers can be weak
3. If you go for the integrated store version and somethign breaks then you have a more expensive thing to throw away (like built in VCRs in TVs were)

However, if you do, the airing cupboard effect can be achieved with a small oil filled radiator or towel rail.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Mr Marsbar is recommending Ideal boilers these days I think.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

What makes you think its terminal? It might be something simple to fix. Fingers crossed for you.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Put a Bosch Worcester gas combi in my last house. Worked a treat. Anything you get now will be condensing, make sure the condensate pipe is installed up to spec so it doesn't freeze in a bad winter.

We're an oil Worcester combi now. Planning to fit a thermal store with electric element to soak up surpass solar PV (going to solar slate the garage roof) and pre heat the water into the combi; modern worcesters are designed for that. Should give us boiler independence for ~9 months of the year and get the flow rate of hot water back up to a level closer to a system boiler.

In reply to marsbar:


Thanks, but the chap that came to service it (it was working, asthmatically, before he arrived but really wasn't happy) yesterday hoovered quite a lot of gunk out of it, after which it wouldn't spark up and after a deal of taking bits apart and using electrical testing meters and the like, said that he would get someone else to come and identify the precise fault but suggested that fixing it would probably not be as wise an investment as getting a new one.

I think it's worth enduring a heating-free holiday in order get the problem properly sorted thereafter, rather than waiting for the next bit to break.

Fun? I'm sure I had some once...

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:


That wouldn't be an acceptable solution in my household!

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

A new boiler might actually save you money. Although on oil, we're using £600 less oil a year which means in 5 years the new (Grants) boiler won't have cost anything. I'm sure a new efficient gas one will save money too.

In reply to marsbar:

Our plumber said that ideal are terrible. Plumbers love to fit them because they are cheap but they constantly break