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Painful house buying

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m0unt41n 16 Dec 2016

This is in England and Wales.

Twice had sellers pull out within a few days Edit - Before exchange of contracts. Have found another but they want 2 months or more from exchange to completion to sort out their house / sale. We are cash buyers, in rented accommodation, and don't need a mortgage.

After quite a bit of googling there doesn't seem much protection for a buyer after contract other than they get their deposit back and can claim some expenses, not sure how you then get those. Seller is fine since they have the 10% deposit if the buyer pulls out after exchange.

Anyone got ideas (legal ones!) and not requiring that we buy a house in Scotland?

Unfortunately we know exactly what and where we want to buy so only a few places there.

I guess final option is for us not to be so picky.

Thanks
Post edited at 16:22
 Dr.S at work 16 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

Two months does not seem too long?

At the moment down here (Bristol and environs) it's very much a sellers market.
m0unt41n 16 Dec 2016
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Two months does not seem too long?

But this is from exchange of contracts to completion, not from offer. Usually it is 1 or maybe 2 weeks from exchange to completion.
 Trangia 16 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:


> After quite a bit of googling there doesn't seem much protection for a buyer after contract other than they get their deposit back and can claim some expenses, not sure how you then get those. Seller is fine since they have the 10% deposit if the buyer pulls out after exchange.

Are you sure about that? The seller is in clear breach of contract, and in my (limited) knowledge of the Law of Contract the buyer should be able to enforce the contract, through the Courts if necessary, and claim the expenses of so doing.
m0unt41n 16 Dec 2016
In reply to Trangia:

Well so far all I can find from a lot of solicitor's advisory web sites is the seller has to return the buyers deposit and the buyer can claim some expenses but these seem to just amount to actual fees and interest on the deposit.

I haven't seen anywhere the idea that you can enforce the contract, merely that you can recover some of your costs.
Whereas the seller seems able to keep the deposit and charge costs.
 pencilled in 16 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:
I wouldn't be keen on selling with a long completion. If the buyers not right for now, find another. I was under the impression that the deposit is lost if you were to pull out after exchange. The problem with a long completion is that it opens the door to further mishaps and dropouts that force you into a breach situation.
Sadly, although a sellers market in Bristol, your sale is only as good as the quality of your buyer. We had a professional footballer pull out of buying our house at the 11th hour which jeopardised the entire but very short chain. The new buyers are very green and don't seem to understand the whole process so need shepherding at every twist and turn.
The people we are buying from have been very patient and open enough to come round for a discussion one evening which settled everyone's nerves.
The thing I keep reminding myself is that it's not like it was, say, when I bought my first house for 60 grand. I was blissfully unaware of the consequences of anything and just went with sold as seen. Nowadays the Internet is full of information that through misinterpretation can cause jitters at any time. It's a ducking ordeal at times.
Good luck, be patient and positive.

And don't get me started on buyers who attempt to negotiate on things that were pointed out during the viewing!
Post edited at 22:51
 nathan79 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

Be picky! It'll be the roof over your head!
 marsbar 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

If you are a cash buyer with no chain then in theory you are the ones in a strong position. If you want the house and they want to sell, then why can't they rent for a couple of months? If they are being ridiculous at this stage already instead if wanting to get on with it, then I'd say it won't get any better.
 wintertree 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

Exchange contracts and wait the 2 months? It's not long compared to how long you'll hopefully be in the house, and it's probably less time than it will take you to get this far with another house.

As Trangia says the standard contract terms allow the buyer to force the seller to complete on time and to reclaim the cost of all legal action taken to also so; obviously check which terms of the standard contract are not applied in your case...
m0unt41n 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

Thanks all.

I still cannot find anything that means that if the seller pulls out then I as the buyer can force them to sell, all I can do is get my 10% deposit back and claim some expenses.

nathan79 - yes any pain now will be offset in future, and vice versa.

pencilled in - I agree that 2 months delay could be scary. Anything from the seller or family dying to illness to change in circumstances to having second thoughts which is why I continue to push to shorten it.

Marsbar - yes I have to keep reminding myself I am meant to be the ideal buyer. I told the agent if the seller insisted on a long delay that instead we could accept the completion date but have the exchange only a week or so before but that in the months before I may well look elsewhere in case something comes up. He said then the seller would put it back on the market so I said yes of course, and they would hope that someone offers them the asking price (which we did) and then that person has sold and that they do no need finance and they can complete all the searches without query? I asked him if that reminded him of anyone then?

Wintertree - agree in the greater scheme of things it is not long at all. It's not that its the extended period of risk which I am trying to reduce if possible.

Ah well see what happens
 wbo 17 Dec 2016
In reply to pencilled in:
without seeming to be harsh, did you read the OP - he is the buyer! Sellers are his problem
 wintertree 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

> Thanks all.

> I still cannot find anything that means that if the seller pulls out then I as the buyer can force them to sell, all I can do is get my 10% deposit back and claim some expenses.

My mistake perhaps; I checked the relevant contract and it gave the vendor powers to force us as a purchaser to complete if we didn't complete in time. So the other way round; this was on a repossession so had a few non standard terms.

Ultimately the terms of the contract are a negotiation between you and the vendor however, so one way to mitigate the risk is to seek some non standard terms, for example a larger penalty for them pulling out. Doesn't seem unreasonable if they want more time. Then again by the time you've negotiated all this...
 marsbar 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

I must admit I don't trust estate agents. As for them putting the house back on the market, that's just bonkers. Do they want to sell or not?
 Dax H 17 Dec 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> I must admit I don't trust estate agents. As for them putting the house back on the market, that's just bonkers. Do they want to sell or not?

I wouldn't trust the slimy bastards as far as I can throw them.
We put our house on the market and shortly after accepted an offer from a friend's daughter at a significant discount because of the friend relationship and to help her get a start in life.
We told the agent to stop viewings and they carried on showing people round.
We only found out because the friend and daughter lived opposite the house.
I told the agent again, stop the viewings and again they carried on so I took the keys from them.
Their arguments for going against my wishes were that a new buyer might be willing to pay more despite me telling them it was a done deal and I was selling to a friend so the price was irrelevant.
2 days later they phoned asking for the keys because they had booked another viewing.
 Babika 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

You have my sympathies.

I've done exchange and completion on the same day (absolutely no need for 1 - 2 weeks) and I've also done a 5 month gap between exchange and completion. The difference being that both situations were agreed and acceptable to both parties.

There is very little you can do as the buyer to force this. My only advice is to develop a really strong personal relationship with the other party at an early stage - make direct phone calls, don't just go through solicitors and agents - and the law of human nature makes it less likely that you will piss one another around.

Best of luck - you will look back and laugh one day.......
 Co1in H 17 Dec 2016
In reply to Babika:
Surely if the estate agents and solicitors did their jobs on time and in a pro active way there wouldn't be half the hassle that there is? Rhetorical question speaking from personal experiences.
m0unt41n 17 Dec 2016
In reply to Babika:

Yes I think that is good advice. With our sale we started out well because the buyer offered near the asking price and was a cash buyer and so we said yes and said (and were) generous with what we would leave etc. You then quickly build up the relationship that both parties are working towards the common good. The two properties we tried to buy but the sellers pulled out were both second homes so it felt as if they had no moral connection and it was just a commodity to get the best deal on so they didn't care about any wreckage they may cause.

I am looking forward to when it is over but time drags whilst you wait though.


m0unt41n 17 Dec 2016
In reply to Co1in H:

My experience has been that the solicitors are total reactive, they do nothing unless required to do. So they instigate a search and then wait for the results, then raise a query and wait until they get a response.

Agents are proactive in that they will ring up to find out what is happening instead of just waiting. But I suspect a lot of the messages they pass on heavily spun and glossed over. Some diplomatically so but often when they should be telling the seller to pull their finger out or reduce a ridiculous price they do nothing for fear that the seller can go elsewhere without any penalty.

What seems to happens is that a lot of house owners put it first on at a silly price, partly because of the sales job by the Agent at the beginning to convince them to use their Agency. They refuse to reduce by anything sensible and then after a fruitless 6 months move it across to another Agent and now put it at a more reasonable price. Then finally it stands a chance of selling.

We have some classic examples locally of houses the owners have greatly extended or "improved" which are now priced at double all the surrounding houses. Which of course no one is going to buy. If as soon as you Zoopla the house address and find all the neighbours are worth half the price few bother.
 SouthernSteve 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:
House buying is nearly always a horrible affair. Estate agents can be very useless and people do change their minds about selling for good and bad reasons. If you go for an extended time between the exchange and completion then that might be fine or not. My best advice, from my Dad when we bought our first house, is to get a really good solicitor to do the conveyancing, who is willing to be grumpy and work hard for you to get what you want. You are merely a pawn!
Removed User 17 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

I've worked in residential conveyancing for the past 10 years in a solicitors office. I deal with files from giving quotes right through to registering the property on completion.

> My experience has been that the solicitors are total reactive, they do nothing unless required to do. So they instigate a search and then wait for the results, then raise a query and wait until they get a response.

It's important to realize that you're not the only file we have to work on. If we get a draft contract in we apply for the search on the same day, and then yes, we have to wait for that to come back to raise enquiries on the result of the search if necessary. But we've already gone through the paperwork sent with the contract and raised any necessary enquiries based off that and forwarded the relevant bits to the client to ask if they want to raise any enquiries we haven't already thought of. We'd then be waiting for mortgage offer to come through so we can send everything for signing to the client in 1 letter. All the while fending off estate agents who don't know or care what's happening other than when they'll get paid.

tl;dr if I'm not working on your file it's because there's nothing more I can do on it until I hear back from whoever I'm waiting on. They get chased after a reasonable period of time has passed for them to deal with my query and get back to me, not every day until they reply until that's the urgency required. Clients do not know what level of chasing is needed.

> Agents are proactive in that they will ring up to find out what is happening instead of just waiting. But I suspect a lot of the messages they pass on heavily spun and glossed over. Some diplomatically so but often when they should be telling the seller to pull their finger out or reduce a ridiculous price they do nothing for fear that the seller can go elsewhere without any penalty.

Agents are useless. I know literally 2 agents out of dozens(hundreds?) I deal with who I'd trust to actually help me with an issue that I can't solve myself speaking to the seller's solicitor. They generally have no idea of the conveyancing process and when they call for updates they listen for key words like 'search applied for' / 'contract received' and then invariably ask when completion will take place even if they've only send us confirmation of sale a couple of day earlier. Mind you that's from a solicitor's perspective, from what I know of buyers or sellers trying to get information from them or chase them or ask them to chase the other party they are just as hopeless then too. At least if you call me and I'm not available or I can't help you I'll give you a call or an email back when I can. All my experience with agents has shown me that they are truly shit at customer service.
 pencilled in 17 Dec 2016
In reply to wbo:
Ah. What a drongo! Late night forum rants in the name of trying to be helpful fail.

m0unt41n 17 Dec 2016
In reply to Removed User:

I guess the starting point is that I only have one house to sell and buy and as for most people it is one of the most important or crucial things I am doing when it happens.

Whereas my solicitor has loads of jobs all running at the same time and all at different stages and fundamentally they want facts and preferably in writing so they have to send off a question and wait for a "definitive if possible" answer. Only when a delay has become obvious and frustrating will they chase.

Whereas my Agent doesn't really need facts other than completion date, and just wants reassurance from all concerned everything is OK so they much prefer to chat and try to keep everyone happy, even if spinning the truth and facts upside down.

For whatever reason all parties seem to prefer to keep the buyer and seller apart. The Agent because otherwise what is their purpose and the solicitor because they don't then know what is being said / agreed. So communication goes out the window replaced by guesswork and assumptions stirred up with stress. And instead of having both sides working towards the common good it drifts towards adversarial. I can understand how vicious divorces can get as soon as you introduce solicitors or anyone who is being paid only to look after the interests of just one side.

It must be a total nightmare if there is a chain since if every time there is a hiccup you end up with a whole string of Agents and sellers / buyers all spinning and at times outright lying about what the situation hoping that it doesn't fall apart.

At the moment that's my consolation, just us and the seller.


 Dax H 17 Dec 2016
In reply to Removed User:

Your probably the exception to the rule.
Our solicitor was constantly telling us (when we managed to get hold of them) that the buyers solicitor was messing them around and not returning paperwork.

Conversely the buyers solicitor was telling her that our solicitor was dragging their feet.

The best one was when our solicitor said they were waiting for a document from the buyers solicitor, apparently Lisa needed to sign a form up hadn't, we new that was crap though.
My wife was out of work and to speed up the process neither us nor Lisa was posting anything, Sara hand delivered and got a receipt for both our paperworks.
Removed User 18 Dec 2016
In reply to m0unt41n:

We are a bit restricted as solicitors in that we can't directly speak to the party we don't represent. We can only speak to the other solicitors and the agents. Really we're only going to go to the agents if we're being stonewalled by the solicitors (or rather if we suspect we're being stonewalled - the other party could have told their solicitors to delay things for example).

I've found that solicitors in general are exceptionally slow to change when it comes to advances in technology. There's zero reason you can't ask a question in the morning and it be emailed to the other party's solicitor before the day is out. The days where we had to get the question in writing and then draft and produce a letter which is then sent by snail mail or even fax should be well gone by now. Unfortunately some practices are slower to adapt to new things than others. I know for a fact that one of the offices near me (a chain of solicitors with 4 branches) do not give their solicitors computers to work on. They work off paper files and dictate to secretaries who do have computers. It's totally nuts.
 Babika 18 Dec 2016
In reply to Removed User:

> I've found that solicitors in general are exceptionally slow to change when it comes to advances in technology.


so true, so true. It is pathetic.

But there is a reason you know: Conveyancing solicitors have to justify a fee for basically acting as a glorified pillar box. They pretend that they are doing a really complex job whereas in 95% of cases its utterly straightforward. I've done my own conveyancing on buying and selling several times, the fastest being offer on a Sunday afternoon, completion 3 weeks later and I had a weeks holiday abroad in between.

But if conveyancers acted super quick and efficiently the clients would start to say "why am I paying £800 for 3 hours work?"
m0unt41n 18 Dec 2016
In reply to Removed User:

Based on wintertree idea I wondered whether the same conditions that apply to a buyer could be written into the contract for the seller. They have to also make a 10% deposit etc Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that both sides should be treated equally, except I suspect that their solicitor would advise strongly against it.

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