UKC

Abseiling from a double fig 8 with short tails - really or is it my imagination?!
youtube.com/watch?v=l_5z6A5Z1h0&

In reply to Chris Reid:

Abseiling from a well-tightened 8 with long tails.

In reply to jimtitt:

I am sure I saw just the same as you.

In reply to zimpara:

Take a look at this video and you'll understand what Chris Reid is on about

https://northeastalpinestart.com/2016/09/27/one-of-these-knots-can-kill-you...

In reply to Woolly:

I know what he is on about thanks!

I am adding to jimtits surprise.

In reply to Chris Reid:

Seems a bit silly to teach a method that can work but has been shown to be far from ideal.

I also don't like tying knots in the end once you've already started, or bouncing around without your prussik backed up.

In reply to Chris Reid:
This video has come up before, and as I remember the makers responded. I think their arguments were that they had tested both knots and found the fig 8 better (unlike most other people); there was also something about tying the knots in the end afterwards because 'that's what guides in Chamonix do' (or something like that).

Having just flicked back to the video I immediately ended up on the bit where the guy puts his prusik on, grabs the anchor, unclips himself, and _then_ holds his brake rope... they seem to have an almost religious faith in their prusiks.

In reply to Chris Reid:

Strange choice when so much is good about the video. I especially like the idea of knotting the rope ends just before reaching the end of the descent rather than before throwing the ropes down. Such an obvious minor detail.

In reply to Stairclimber:
One of the many reasons for putting knots in the end of your ropes when abbing is so you don't go off the end by accident (maybe you get knocked unconscious whilst abseiling and your Prussik slips) . Although it might make throwing the ropes a bit easier, tying your knot when you are already at the end of them does mean you only have the protection of the knots for the last couple of metres.

In reply to Scott Kirkhope:

OMG. He was being so sarcastic when he said that.

In reply to Scott Kirkhope:

It's all about compromises. ENSA works in the context of Alpinism, and a knot at the end of a rope getting stuck somewhere out of reach after you throw them when abseiling from an alpine route can really mess up your day. At best it'll delay you, which could mean getting benighted or stuck in an incoming storm, at worse it will add extra dangers when trying to get to them to retrieve them, or by dislodging rocks on you if pulling on them. Doing the knots when lower down is a middle of the road compromise in that context.

In reply to zimpara:

I'm sorry, I didn't see anything that suggested he was being sarcastic. I must pay more attention next time!

In reply to Mr Lopez:

This is very true, it is all about compromise and applying the most appropriate/safest/quickest method or technique we have in our arsenal. At the same time and from my perspective abseiling is probably one of the most dangerous things we'll do and it doesn't matter to me whether it is 50m off the floor or 800m, make a mistake and it is probably lights out.

In reply to Chris Reid:

I was also surprised that when the second climber reached the ledge he clipped his cowtail to the first climber's krab rather than independently into the belay powerpoint. This raises the possibility that if climber 1 goes first again, when he unclips climber 2 is left unattached to the belay. It should be OK if climber 2 is going to be the first to descend, but the film ended before we saw that.

In reply to Howard J:

I think the second guy down was indicated to clip there by the first, presumably to avoid clipping two carabiners into the maillon and then having to squeeze a rope in as well. You could clip the three legs of the cord but that's tricky when it is loaded. I think you would have to be really, really dumb to unclip that krab anyway as it is pretty obvious what is going on (unlike say abseiling off the end of a rope, which you barely need to be dumb at all to do if you haven't tied knots in the end. Also if one person is leading and the other is under instruction then the leader will have a clear plan, further reducing the risk of that sort of confusion (wrong person going first).

Personally I don't see the point of tying knots at all if you don't tie them until you see that you are close to the end anyway (since this presumably means you are paying attention)? Although I guess if you get into the habit of doing it say 20m it could work for you.

In reply to Scott Kirkhope:

Hi Scott. No sarcasm intended. Please take anything I post at face value. I have learned something today, which may well have been obvious to others. I don't normally knot the rope ends to avoid snagging, but always use a prussik. I will try the compromise knotting just short of the stance in future.
I hope posters can use this forum to comment sensibly in the spirit of sharing/questioning practice, without worrying about 'bluffs' designed to entertain or massage egos.

In reply to Stairclimber:

No worries at all, I too hope that this can be a place for people to learn and draw from others experiences. Happy climbing!

In reply to Chris Reid:

As mentioned by others, ENSA has tests that suggest the figure 8 is as good or better than the ordinary EDK. youtube.com/watch?v=N-jE-Da4P1U& . This result doesn't agree with tests done by others. It also seems that when they use ropes of unequal diameter and an EDK, they fail to use the best configuration for roll prevention. A potential issue is that the ENSA tests seem to be conducted at a relatively high constant pull rate, something that doesn't seem to me to model any climbing situation.

One thing you can see in the ENSA tests, already remarked on by Moyers in the original set of tests, is that the EDK "rolls" whereas the figure-8 "capsizes." The difference is that the figure-8 rather suddenly pops into a new configuration, chewing through a lot of the tail in the process. This behavior by itself would, from my perspective, motivate forearm-length tails.

For those of us who have been rappelling for many years without knotting the ends of our ropes, the compromise idea of not tossing strands with the snagging equivalent of a nut on the end but still protecting against going off the ends if the landing is sketchy seems like a good idea. It also allows the climber to tie both strands together with one knot, something that frequently works out very badly if you try it from the outset of the rappel.

In reply to andrewmc:


The first climber will be unclipping that krab in order to descend. That would leave the second climber unattached to the belay (although still attached to the first climber). Either the second climber must rearrange his attachment before the first climber descends, or he must descend first (which was probably the plan, but the video should have made it clearer and not faded out at the crucial moment). And it might not be so obvious what is going on when you're both crowded onto a tiny ledge, the weather's broken and it's getting dark.

I agree it's unlikely to go wrong if everyone is clear about what is going to happen, but when abseiling it's good to have a system which keeps things simple and obvious so you're less likely to make mistakes when things get stressful. What they demonstrated is probably fine if their system is clear that they are always going to take turns descending first, but there may be situations where that is not possible.

In reply to Howard J:


Presumably they'll do what they did at their first belay - both threaded their own descenders on the rope and clipped into them - then the second climber to abseil doesn't need to be attached to the belay as he can't move till his mate's weight is off the rope.