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Interested to hear the thoughts/experiences of the panel re. the pros and cons of tethering your belayer to the deck on single pitch climbs. I've read conflicting accounts.
For context, my 'friend' currently tips the scales around 15 stone, and his belayer is about 8 stone wet through.
For context, my 'friend' currently tips the scales around 15 stone, and his belayer is about 8 stone wet through.
1
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Tie me belayer down, trad... Tie me belayer down.
Too soon for Rolf Harris references?
Tie me belayer down, trad... Tie me belayer down.
Too soon for Rolf Harris references?
1
In reply to Clauso:
My dad used to tie me down when I belayed him on trad sometimes (when I was about 13 and he was 40 odd).
Probably saved his life once when he took a huge whipper off Warspite Direct (E2 5b) and stopped about 3 feet off the rocks below with me suspended in the air, held tight against the sling used to tie me down.
Lesson there is, don't try on sighting at your limit with no gear big enough for the crack when belayed by a child barley 2/3rd's your body weight.
My dad used to tie me down when I belayed him on trad sometimes (when I was about 13 and he was 40 odd).
Probably saved his life once when he took a huge whipper off Warspite Direct (E2 5b) and stopped about 3 feet off the rocks below with me suspended in the air, held tight against the sling used to tie me down.
Lesson there is, don't try on sighting at your limit with no gear big enough for the crack when belayed by a child barley 2/3rd's your body weight.
16
1
In reply to Clauso:
Perhaps a little .
Well I'm not really got much experience of climbing with someone a different weight but I would have thought you want to use belay. Especially on trad where you don't want to be falling further than you have to. I'd wait till someone with more experience comes along to offer a more in depth opinion though.
One thing I do know is you shouldn't anchor the bilayer too far away from the cliff. You don't want to zipper gear.
Perhaps a little .
Well I'm not really got much experience of climbing with someone a different weight but I would have thought you want to use belay. Especially on trad where you don't want to be falling further than you have to. I'd wait till someone with more experience comes along to offer a more in depth opinion though.
One thing I do know is you shouldn't anchor the bilayer too far away from the cliff. You don't want to zipper gear.
Post edited at 21:43
In reply to Clauso:
There is a video on youtube, Where they tie a belayer down, (might have been on a multipitch) and simulate a leader fall with a big tire. Lets just say the belay gets wrecked face first and nearly always lets go of the rope.
There is a video on youtube, Where they tie a belayer down, (might have been on a multipitch) and simulate a leader fall with a big tire. Lets just say the belay gets wrecked face first and nearly always lets go of the rope.
5
In reply to zimpara:
>... Lets just say the belay gets wrecked face first and nearly always lets go of the rope.
Ahhhhhhhh... So you're basically saying that, if I ensure that I don't fall off holding a big tyre, then I ought to be grand?
>... Lets just say the belay gets wrecked face first and nearly always lets go of the rope.
Ahhhhhhhh... So you're basically saying that, if I ensure that I don't fall off holding a big tyre, then I ought to be grand?
17
In reply to zimpara:
This Seb Grieve bloke seems to like tying his belayer down too. Saucy sod.
youtube.com/watch?v=0YGePHW5wG8&
This Seb Grieve bloke seems to like tying his belayer down too. Saucy sod.
youtube.com/watch?v=0YGePHW5wG8&
3
11
In reply to Clauso:
Ground anchor every time. (it's what my belayer does). Even used a stack of stones over a sling, the "anchor" doesn't need to be totally belay-quality; it's enough to add sufficient weight to get closer to somewhere around 80% of climber's weight.
The idea that you might lose security by the belayer not being able to move is a bit of a red herring: if the weight difference is around 1/2 then the belayer will go flying; (even if they were totally attentive and reacted accordingly the moment you came off)
Ground anchor every time. (it's what my belayer does). Even used a stack of stones over a sling, the "anchor" doesn't need to be totally belay-quality; it's enough to add sufficient weight to get closer to somewhere around 80% of climber's weight.
The idea that you might lose security by the belayer not being able to move is a bit of a red herring: if the weight difference is around 1/2 then the belayer will go flying; (even if they were totally attentive and reacted accordingly the moment you came off)
Post edited at 23:07
2
1
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
I haven't tied down in the past but have recently considered it for a sport route where there is a substantial weight differance; still not convinced either way, pros and cons as always with climbing
You did well at 13 to have held a fall like that.
I haven't tied down in the past but have recently considered it for a sport route where there is a substantial weight differance; still not convinced either way, pros and cons as always with climbing
You did well at 13 to have held a fall like that.
In reply to Clauso:
If you tie them a little short so that the 'tether' is roughly in tension, and if it's in line with the direction they'll be yanked to (1st bolt) it's fine. For best results use the tail of the rope for tying down, a grigri for peace of mind, and make sure the tether is not running between the legs unless the belayer is being filmed.
If you tie them a little short so that the 'tether' is roughly in tension, and if it's in line with the direction they'll be yanked to (1st bolt) it's fine. For best results use the tail of the rope for tying down, a grigri for peace of mind, and make sure the tether is not running between the legs unless the belayer is being filmed.
9
In reply to Clauso:
This just reminded me of a conversation with the gf (usual belayer) after a day out climbing with another friend of ours of similarly scrawny build.
Me:.. Fell of on lead today..
Her: oh my God, was she OK?..
(did nearly land on her head, but it's nice to know folks have concern for your welfare)
This just reminded me of a conversation with the gf (usual belayer) after a day out climbing with another friend of ours of similarly scrawny build.
Me:.. Fell of on lead today..
Her: oh my God, was she OK?..
(did nearly land on her head, but it's nice to know folks have concern for your welfare)
9
In reply to Clauso:
My experience as a weighty climber (fat git, if you prefer) is that a belayer about 2/3 the weight of the climber is fine, below that and you need some kind of weight bag, ground anchor or whatever to bring it to or better than that.
My experience as a weighty climber (fat git, if you prefer) is that a belayer about 2/3 the weight of the climber is fine, below that and you need some kind of weight bag, ground anchor or whatever to bring it to or better than that.
Post edited at 23:39
1
In reply to Clauso:
I prefer to use nails. It encourages the belayers to make an effort to get heavier instead.
I prefer to use nails. It encourages the belayers to make an effort to get heavier instead.
1
In reply to Neil Williams:
Thanks for the responses chaps.
... You too Lusk, even though you mysteriously deleted it. For the record; that would be a waste of good pies, ya crazy cat.
Thanks for the responses chaps.
... You too Lusk, even though you mysteriously deleted it. For the record; that would be a waste of good pies, ya crazy cat.
1
In reply to Clauso:
Be careful tying the belayer down if there is any chance they may need to dodge loose rock
Be careful tying the belayer down if there is any chance they may need to dodge loose rock
10
1
In reply to Clauso:
The best option is to have a competent belayer that can provide a 'soft catch ' via dynamic belaying. However, being dropped by someone who reacts badly to being jolted or crashing into the rock face could be disastrous. A ground belay can be arranged to either take all of the force or some of it or even to provide a back up to a dynamic catch. Get the belayer to tie in the end of the rope as for climbing, clove hitch into a low anchor point and operate the belay device from a carabiner clipped into the waist tie rather than the harness (abseil) loop.
The best option is to have a competent belayer that can provide a 'soft catch ' via dynamic belaying. However, being dropped by someone who reacts badly to being jolted or crashing into the rock face could be disastrous. A ground belay can be arranged to either take all of the force or some of it or even to provide a back up to a dynamic catch. Get the belayer to tie in the end of the rope as for climbing, clove hitch into a low anchor point and operate the belay device from a carabiner clipped into the waist tie rather than the harness (abseil) loop.
In reply to Clauso:
The advice in Germany is to tie down a belayer weighing >20kg less than the leader (to a weight bag). Personally...it depends on the situation. I've been in a 'leader throws a TV sized rock at me' situation where the ability to dodge falling objects is key, and also a 'leader fell off and nearly dragged me into the sea' situation. Being free is desirable for the former, and being tied to something desirable for the latter. It also helps tremendously if the belayer is used to holding falls and being launched into the air in the process. It was quite a novel experience to belay someone nearly twice my weight (I'm 82kg...) at the indoor wall last year - when he fell off it was like being picked up by the hand of god!
The advice in Germany is to tie down a belayer weighing >20kg less than the leader (to a weight bag). Personally...it depends on the situation. I've been in a 'leader throws a TV sized rock at me' situation where the ability to dodge falling objects is key, and also a 'leader fell off and nearly dragged me into the sea' situation. Being free is desirable for the former, and being tied to something desirable for the latter. It also helps tremendously if the belayer is used to holding falls and being launched into the air in the process. It was quite a novel experience to belay someone nearly twice my weight (I'm 82kg...) at the indoor wall last year - when he fell off it was like being picked up by the hand of god!
7
In reply to Clauso:
I suspect, like much else, it depends on the exact circumstances but I do vividly remember watching a large friend falling off something at Kyloe & his much smaller belayer leaving the ground ending with both of them suspended almost side by side. Fortunately nothing damaged.
I suspect, like much else, it depends on the exact circumstances but I do vividly remember watching a large friend falling off something at Kyloe & his much smaller belayer leaving the ground ending with both of them suspended almost side by side. Fortunately nothing damaged.
In reply to Toerag:
It was quite a novel experience to belay someone nearly twice my weight
I think this is a very good point; most folks don't have 1st hand experience, and often not much appreciation, of how big a flyer you can take.
> 'leader throws a TV sized rock at me'
sounds nasty - how much dodging did you do; or did you just squeeze yourself against the rock and make a face? It was quite a novel experience to belay someone nearly twice my weight
I think this is a very good point; most folks don't have 1st hand experience, and often not much appreciation, of how big a flyer you can take.
In reply to harold walmsley:
Exactly - I'm surprised someone didn't say that sooner. There's always a chance of that, and at a lot of crags it's a significant risk, especially on trad where you don't have bolted lower-offs. I'm very wary of tethering myself (on the ground), and don't generally do it unless it seems absolutely required, either because of a massive weight difference, or because the belay position itself is unsafe (e.g. on a platform with an adjacent drop, or atop a steep slope).
> Be careful tying the belayer down if there is any chance they may need to dodge loose rock
Exactly - I'm surprised someone didn't say that sooner. There's always a chance of that, and at a lot of crags it's a significant risk, especially on trad where you don't have bolted lower-offs. I'm very wary of tethering myself (on the ground), and don't generally do it unless it seems absolutely required, either because of a massive weight difference, or because the belay position itself is unsafe (e.g. on a platform with an adjacent drop, or atop a steep slope).
In reply to bpmclimb:
kind of answered your own question there; the discussion started with regards to massive weight difference.
> because of a massive weight difference...
kind of answered your own question there; the discussion started with regards to massive weight difference.
In reply to Clauso:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=8217
Okay, it's another bit of kit to carry around, but it will reduce the impact force on the belayer without totally eradicating the possibility of a dynamic belay and allow your belayer to move around for best position/dodging falling material.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=8217
Okay, it's another bit of kit to carry around, but it will reduce the impact force on the belayer without totally eradicating the possibility of a dynamic belay and allow your belayer to move around for best position/dodging falling material.
In reply to daWalt:
True, but various people implied using ground anchors more generally, with at least one poster recommending "ground anchor every time" (also, the OP's thread title clearly said sport, yet the first four replies all mention trad: threads do tend to widen in scope fairly rapidly).
My point is that use of a ground anchor is a two-edged sword, and the fact that mobility is sometimes very important seemed to me underemphasised. Being pulled upwards to some degree could compromise safe belaying, but being hit on the head by a large rock almost certainly will!
> kind of answered your own question there; the discussion started with regards to massive weight difference.
True, but various people implied using ground anchors more generally, with at least one poster recommending "ground anchor every time" (also, the OP's thread title clearly said sport, yet the first four replies all mention trad: threads do tend to widen in scope fairly rapidly).
My point is that use of a ground anchor is a two-edged sword, and the fact that mobility is sometimes very important seemed to me underemphasised. Being pulled upwards to some degree could compromise safe belaying, but being hit on the head by a large rock almost certainly will!
In reply to Hephaestus:
Seems a good investment for climbers of large weight difference who sport climb together a lot - although for occasional users the price might be prohibitive.
> Okay, it's another bit of kit to carry around, but it will reduce the impact force on the belayer without totally eradicating the possibility of a dynamic belay and allow your belayer to move around for best position/dodging falling material.
Seems a good investment for climbers of large weight difference who sport climb together a lot - although for occasional users the price might be prohibitive.
In reply to bpmclimb:
True dat. But if Darren's 'friend' is twice the weight of his belayer, then the investment might be worth it
> Seems a good investment for climbers of large weight difference who sport climb together a lot - although for occasional users the price might be prohibitive.
True dat. But if Darren's 'friend' is twice the weight of his belayer, then the investment might be worth it
1
In reply to Clauso:
re massive weight difference:
belayer will fly - they may be happy with this.
soft catch - you'll get one.
getting wiped into the wall might be uncomfortable,
coming into contact with the 1st clip/runner sounds nasty (although not known this personally)
anchor:
anything that assists is helpful, even it's weak / only adds some general ballast
ground anchor positioning is rarely ideal - however you can be usually be very flexible in positioning if all you need is a bit of extra assistance / flight control.
i.e. having a ground anchor a good few meters back from where you stand will still help: allows some vertical load to be transferred / stops belayer flying horizontally / minimizes uplift....
re falling rock:
this can be managed - location of where you stand, and freedom of movement in the system (not necessary to be pinned to one spot).
having slack in the anchor is ok - you'll still minimize belayer flight (travel through air - not running away)
how much freedom of movement do you think you need - to a certain extent you're already limited in movement by the climbing rope and the terrain you're on.
stuff falls fast and will bounce randomly in any direction - looking up reduces the effectiveness of your helmet (bye bye sweet high cheekbones...)
worth discussing options with belayer; make sure they're happy
I'd suggest that the person in sole charge of operating the single mechanism that stands between yourself and extreme pain / terminal death (the worst kind) should be comfortable in what they do.... (and know what to expect if they do and don't use ground anchor)
re massive weight difference:
belayer will fly - they may be happy with this.
soft catch - you'll get one.
getting wiped into the wall might be uncomfortable,
coming into contact with the 1st clip/runner sounds nasty (although not known this personally)
anchor:
anything that assists is helpful, even it's weak / only adds some general ballast
ground anchor positioning is rarely ideal - however you can be usually be very flexible in positioning if all you need is a bit of extra assistance / flight control.
i.e. having a ground anchor a good few meters back from where you stand will still help: allows some vertical load to be transferred / stops belayer flying horizontally / minimizes uplift....
re falling rock:
this can be managed - location of where you stand, and freedom of movement in the system (not necessary to be pinned to one spot).
having slack in the anchor is ok - you'll still minimize belayer flight (travel through air - not running away)
how much freedom of movement do you think you need - to a certain extent you're already limited in movement by the climbing rope and the terrain you're on.
stuff falls fast and will bounce randomly in any direction - looking up reduces the effectiveness of your helmet (bye bye sweet high cheekbones...)
worth discussing options with belayer; make sure they're happy
I'd suggest that the person in sole charge of operating the single mechanism that stands between yourself and extreme pain / terminal death (the worst kind) should be comfortable in what they do.... (and know what to expect if they do and don't use ground anchor)
In reply to Clauso:
To add my tuppence...
I've been glad of being tied in, for example when belaying a friend at Twistleton Scar. Although he fell off above me, his 1 measly bit of gear did slow him down a bit before it popped. Did my best to catch him before he hit the deck, but he rather glanced off me and kept going (ground there is quite steep and rocky) before somehow coming to rest between various spikes of rock. If I hadn't been tied in, there's no way I could have scuttled out of the way anyway and I like to think I saved him more serious injury by beaking his fall. He still hurt his back and something on his rack gashed one of my fingers as I tried to grab him, but I'm sure it would have been a lot worse. In hindsight, I could have been off to the side a bit more, but bit of a tricky base and other people around.
Sea cliffs, equally, I'd tend to favour being tied in, depending on the base - even a freak wave at low tide can catch you out.
For what you describe, I think it's sensible, you just need to be careful about how you arrange it - especially, keep the anchor taut and in as direct a line as possible to the first clip, if you see what I mean.
To add my tuppence...
I've been glad of being tied in, for example when belaying a friend at Twistleton Scar. Although he fell off above me, his 1 measly bit of gear did slow him down a bit before it popped. Did my best to catch him before he hit the deck, but he rather glanced off me and kept going (ground there is quite steep and rocky) before somehow coming to rest between various spikes of rock. If I hadn't been tied in, there's no way I could have scuttled out of the way anyway and I like to think I saved him more serious injury by beaking his fall. He still hurt his back and something on his rack gashed one of my fingers as I tried to grab him, but I'm sure it would have been a lot worse. In hindsight, I could have been off to the side a bit more, but bit of a tricky base and other people around.
Sea cliffs, equally, I'd tend to favour being tied in, depending on the base - even a freak wave at low tide can catch you out.
For what you describe, I think it's sensible, you just need to be careful about how you arrange it - especially, keep the anchor taut and in as direct a line as possible to the first clip, if you see what I mean.
Post edited at 13:26
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In reply to Clauso:
No one says the belayer has to be tethered for the whole route, maybe just the dangerous/ probable ground fall section.
If before I left the ground, I thought I was on for a close to ground fall, and the running/jumping option wasn't appropriate, then I'd tie them down. To one side if I thought there was a rock fall issue.
A bloody nose if the leader and belayer collide is better than a dead leader. The belayer just has to take one for the team and hopefully suck it up without the need for too many pints compensation.
Another way is place low multidirectional gear. They may hate you for it, but being pulled through a krab stops most belayers.
Sport routes should be safe. Any trad route which is more dangerous isn't for me as a leader anyway. Trouble with trad - its all a bit of an unknown, but low grade routes have plenty of things to hit on the way down, so I'd only want to fall off VS, HVS and preferably E's. By which time I should know better.
No one says the belayer has to be tethered for the whole route, maybe just the dangerous/ probable ground fall section.
If before I left the ground, I thought I was on for a close to ground fall, and the running/jumping option wasn't appropriate, then I'd tie them down. To one side if I thought there was a rock fall issue.
A bloody nose if the leader and belayer collide is better than a dead leader. The belayer just has to take one for the team and hopefully suck it up without the need for too many pints compensation.
Another way is place low multidirectional gear. They may hate you for it, but being pulled through a krab stops most belayers.
Sport routes should be safe. Any trad route which is more dangerous isn't for me as a leader anyway. Trouble with trad - its all a bit of an unknown, but low grade routes have plenty of things to hit on the way down, so I'd only want to fall off VS, HVS and preferably E's. By which time I should know better.
In reply to Clauso:
For what it's worth, I am 2/3 the weight of my partner who went through a brief spare of tying me down (he was troubled by how often his feet would meet my face at the first clip).
I found tying down to be very problematic - being stuck in one position while he redpointed a route trashed my neck (still suffering). I was unable to take in/pay out as quickly being glued to the spot (i.e. couldn't move) and I couldn't really give him a soft catch (because I couldn't move). Mercifully, he abandoned the tying down thing when I purchased a shiney new grigri (if I get knocked out/hurt, I'll be less likely to drop him).
I've become accomplished in running up the wall/rock face when he takes a whipper - this seems scares other the other climbers less, and makes me look dead cool so it's a victory all round
For what it's worth, I am 2/3 the weight of my partner who went through a brief spare of tying me down (he was troubled by how often his feet would meet my face at the first clip).
I found tying down to be very problematic - being stuck in one position while he redpointed a route trashed my neck (still suffering). I was unable to take in/pay out as quickly being glued to the spot (i.e. couldn't move) and I couldn't really give him a soft catch (because I couldn't move). Mercifully, he abandoned the tying down thing when I purchased a shiney new grigri (if I get knocked out/hurt, I'll be less likely to drop him).
I've become accomplished in running up the wall/rock face when he takes a whipper - this seems scares other the other climbers less, and makes me look dead cool so it's a victory all round
3
In reply to daWalt:
The route was a 20ft wall with slabby groove above and the rock came from about 45ft up. I saw it bounce once on the slab and break in two before I'd pressed myself into the base of the crag - I knew I couldn't run far as a) I'd pull my climber off; and b) to one side was an navigable 6ft pedestal. Nothing hit me, but that was pure fluke. One piece big enough to cause serious damage landed atop the pedestal about 2ft to one side of me. It's always fun climbing sea cliff routes that haven't had an ascent since the '80s
> sounds nasty - how much dodging did you do; or did you just squeeze yourself against the rock and make a face?
The route was a 20ft wall with slabby groove above and the rock came from about 45ft up. I saw it bounce once on the slab and break in two before I'd pressed myself into the base of the crag - I knew I couldn't run far as a) I'd pull my climber off; and b) to one side was an navigable 6ft pedestal. Nothing hit me, but that was pure fluke. One piece big enough to cause serious damage landed atop the pedestal about 2ft to one side of me. It's always fun climbing sea cliff routes that haven't had an ascent since the '80s
In reply to Toerag:
aye, sounds nasty all right.
From my view, and I mean this in the context of all comments on this thread, the idea of dodging falling rock is easier said than done.
I haven't experienced anything that big, that close myself.... (don't want to either).
The closest thing that's ever come to hitting me was a belay plate - partner managed to drop it while setting up the belay and didn't notice.....
fell from about 25m up and wacked into the ground about 1m from where I was standing - I 2nd up to the top he says "I brought you up on an Italian hitch, I can't find my belay plate"
tchuh!...............
aye, sounds nasty all right.
From my view, and I mean this in the context of all comments on this thread, the idea of dodging falling rock is easier said than done.
I haven't experienced anything that big, that close myself.... (don't want to either).
The closest thing that's ever come to hitting me was a belay plate - partner managed to drop it while setting up the belay and didn't notice.....
fell from about 25m up and wacked into the ground about 1m from where I was standing - I 2nd up to the top he says "I brought you up on an Italian hitch, I can't find my belay plate"
tchuh!...............
In reply to Clauso:
As a tiny person - it depends on circumstances for me. Most small climbers are not in the least bit alarmed by air time - we do it regularly. I always teach people to hold falls where they get lifted, no matter how big they are, just in case!
There are times where I think landing is sufficiently bad that I don't want to give my climber a dynamic catch, there are times where I am in a precarious position to belay and I might choose to ground anchor. There are times where I feel no need for a ground anchor and I just belay.
As with many things in the outdoors, it depends!
As a tiny person - it depends on circumstances for me. Most small climbers are not in the least bit alarmed by air time - we do it regularly. I always teach people to hold falls where they get lifted, no matter how big they are, just in case!
There are times where I think landing is sufficiently bad that I don't want to give my climber a dynamic catch, there are times where I am in a precarious position to belay and I might choose to ground anchor. There are times where I feel no need for a ground anchor and I just belay.
As with many things in the outdoors, it depends!
In reply to Clauso:
Could the first piece of gear be placed really low (below the belayer) designed to take an upward load? If your friend ends up falling his skinny mate would be pulled down, rather than up.
Or your friend could give up pies and lard for a while.
Could the first piece of gear be placed really low (below the belayer) designed to take an upward load? If your friend ends up falling his skinny mate would be pulled down, rather than up.
Or your friend could give up pies and lard for a while.
In reply to bpmclimb:
I think the general answer is that it depends on the circumstances, potential fall factor, etc. What I generally used to do was rig up a ground anchor but make sure that this could be unclipped very quickly and easily. I would usually unclip once the leader was high up with with lots of rope out and plenty of runners, usually so that I could get further away from the crag with a better view of the pitch with less craning of the neck.
I think the general answer is that it depends on the circumstances, potential fall factor, etc. What I generally used to do was rig up a ground anchor but make sure that this could be unclipped very quickly and easily. I would usually unclip once the leader was high up with with lots of rope out and plenty of runners, usually so that I could get further away from the crag with a better view of the pitch with less craning of the neck.
In reply to daWalt:
If you climb on Wye valley limestone it becomes second nature
I've dropped a couple of toaster-sized blocks on my belayer, he's used to it now. On one memorable occasion he stepped out of the way and it landed exactly where he'd been standing. He'd forgotten his helmet that day too ( and declined my offer to use mine while belaying ). I don't think it would have made any difference anyway - toaster-sized block from 20m V a helmet?
> aye, sounds nasty all right.
> From my view, and I mean this in the context of all comments on this thread, the idea of dodging falling rock is easier said than done.
If you climb on Wye valley limestone it becomes second nature
I've dropped a couple of toaster-sized blocks on my belayer, he's used to it now. On one memorable occasion he stepped out of the way and it landed exactly where he'd been standing. He'd forgotten his helmet that day too ( and declined my offer to use mine while belaying ). I don't think it would have made any difference anyway - toaster-sized block from 20m V a helmet?
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