UKC

I'm having thoughts about a trip to the Bavarian or Austrian Alps.

Has anyone got any suggestions about where and when to go and what to do? Or whether the whole thing is a terrible idea? We're probably after either big easy trad climbs and scrambles or multi-day walks into remote country, but we don't really do glaciers.

In case anyone wants to do the "don't do that, do this instead" thing, the background is basically that my partner's going to be in Brussels from March through to the end of July, we like the idea of doing an overland trip from there to some mountains, and you seem to be able to get a reasonable train connection from there to a sleeper that'll get you to Innsbruck or Munich.

Thanks!

In reply to Ramblin dave:
How about the Oberreintal cirque in the northern part of the Wetterstein, just on the German side of the Austria/Germany border. It's a few hours enjoyable and spectacular walk through the Partnach Gorge south from Garmisch. I would imagine that rail travel Munich - Garmisch would be routine. Probably contains everything from easy ridges up to UIAA 10.There's a DAV hut there.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/map/?q=WETTERSTEIN

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Remote is something that will be hard to find in Bavaria. Big trad climbs of all difficulties can be found in the Wetterstein and Karwendel, so basing yourself in Mittenwald or Garmisch and staying at some of the climbing huts for a few days each is probably your best bet. Oberreintal hut would be the obvious first choice!
For Austria, the other side of the same mountains, and of course the Wilde Kaiser come to mind.

CB

In reply to Ian Parsons:
You can get a train from Munich to Garmisch but it stops at every signal box, apparently. There's a bus (https://meinfernbus.de/en/staedte/bus-ab-muenchen) that goes from Munich airport to a bus station next to Munich central railway station and on to Garmisch which is better. However the Garmisch - Innsbruck train journey is worth making for impressive views down the Inn valley.
We did the hut-to-hut walk round the Stubai valley two summers ago which was great but possibly a bit too easy for the OP.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
I presume the Herzogkante in the Karwendel at V and 20ish pitches qualifies sufficiently as “long”? Especially given that it has an adventuruous & hairy descent. But how easy is "easy"? Whereas the Eichhorngrat from Oberreintal is even longer at around 1500 metres, but probably a bit easier and the descent is anything but hairy being equipped with a pub every couple of hundred metres.

The Blassengrat in the Wetterstein at III is and great fun – better than the adjacent much overrated Jubilaumsgrat – but a long day out and generally lacking in pubs along the way.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Think "fat rambler on holiday" and you're about there!

For relatively relaxed "holiday climbing", I guess my ideal - without knowing whether this sort of thing exists or not - is nice mountain days out, maybe a bit of scrambling or a few hundred metres of technical climbing - up to about severe on trad gear or French IV or V on bolts - with a nice peak at the end. From limited experience in the Pyrenees, we'd probably get on well with PD-ish alpine grades.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice so far!

In reply to fimm:



Hmm, the train takes less scheduled time than the bus and there´ s one an hour. Personally I wouldn´ t think there´ s any real difference between taking the bus and the train except at busy periods when the end of the motorway is inevitably a traffic jam.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

In that case, have you considered doing via ferrata (Klettersteig in German)? There are some nice looking ones of varying levels of difficulty around and about in that area of the northern alps.

Failing that, I've fancied doing some multi-day walks via various huts by using the ferry over the Königsee near Berchtesgarten. Proper, real "wilderness" in the sense of being alone somewhere on a moor in the Scottish highlands will be hard to find, but I think that would come pretty close. The Königsee is certainly a spectacular place.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I enjoyed a trip to the Wilder Kaiser about 10 years ago. If you stay in the Stripsenjochhaus you have very quick access to the Totenkirchl and Fleischbank which have some easy long routes. There is also the Predigtstuhl, although I don't have any experience of that one.

Plus there are some klettersteigs, one of which I recall did a full circuit of the Fleischbank and Totenkirchl.

Totenkirchl
Fleischbank
Predigtstuhl

The hut was a bit of a yomp up a hill, but once you were there it was a great location to stay for a few days. It was run by an active local climber who had put up a lot of the routes in the area. Not sure if he is still running it.

Cheers,

Chris

In reply to Ramblin dave:

First of all definitely do it, it's one of the most beautiful places I've been to, would second Berchtesgaden it's awesome (the walks that give you views down on to the Konigsee are incredible). You can get away from the crowds a bit by choosing non-DAV tracks - the DAV is the main German mountaineering club and they maintain and signpost a lot of the paths. The non-DAV paths tend to be the black smaller marked ones on the 1-25k maps rather than the red ones and you'll probably need to pick your own routes, generally I've found the paths to be just as good but much less busy but a bit of navigation is necessary.

Climbing wise you could try and get hold of the Panico "genuss" (enjoyment) guides which are for the easier grades and have routes up to 35 pitches! They also have a pretty good indication of protection although obviously use your own judgement about what makes sense to get on.

I lived near the chiemsee lake for a few years so know that area well and you just can't go wrong there and in Berchtesgaden too, as well as around the two Kaiser's which are just south of the chiemsee into Austria. Hanging out at the lake and walking nearby is cool as you get a mountain and a beach experience in one. Stringing walks together between huts is great but you need to book early with lots of them, or just do day trips and enjoy food and a beer there. I'd suggest getting into Austria in the spring before all the flowers are cut - it's spectacular Heidi country around that time, Zillertal is another stunning location particularly around then. Enjoy!!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

In that case, Meilerhütte in the Wetterstein would definitely be good for a couple of days. High up by local standards (~2500 metres) with long but pleasant approaches and lots of not too long but pleasant easy climbs on good rock ending on summits.

Wetterstein Nord from Panico is the current guidebook.

Also on the way up from the German side you go past Schachen - Mad King Ludwig's hunting lodge, complete with unusual microclimate and herbaceous garden with some very unusual mountain vegetation.

In reply to Matt Vigg:

Good tips Matt. The Steinernes Meer south of Königsee is an amazing landscape with lots of relatively remote Grade II/III summits.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Great stuff from everyone, thanks again!

Any advice on climate and when to go?

Cheers!

In reply to AlanLittle:

Thanks Alan, reminds me I'm overdue for a trip down south.... Hope you're keeping well.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Mid June onwards would be my suggestion, but of course that varies from year to year.

If you are after REALLY long routes you could always try the Watzmann East face, the highest wall of the Eastern Alps that rises right from the Königssee to the summit.

The normal route through that face is called Berchtesgadener Weg, it is only UIAA III+, but offers 3000m of climbing for 1800m of elevation gain!

Technically this may sound easy, but the route finding can be tricky, and you definitely do not want to get caught there in a thunderstorm.

CB

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Within your dates you could still see a bit of snow at the start but you could also get lovely and stable weather for the whole of that time depending on where you go. Might be best deciding where you want to go and looking at conditions nearer the time.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
As to when to go and fire your enthusiasm - look at the webcams at http://www.foto-webcam.eu/ as most are in Germany / Austria to see when the snow disappears (you can change the date, and also zoom in nicely). If you pick one (eg. Zugspitze gipfel) the rest are listed by proximity and the info>map tab will show you where they are exactly. Like most places in the Alps, when you want 'non-snowy' stuff pre-July is risky, especially on Northern faces. Start of September is normally the best time as it avoids late snow patches, the summer (August) crowds and thunderstorms, yet the lifts & huts are still working. You can see the first of autumn snows though, I got caught out like that a couple of years ago.
Anyhow, Training in from Munich is easy - either to Fussen, Murnau, Garmisch, or Rosenheim areas. Fussen will get you to the Allgauer alps (Tegelberg webcam, Neuschwanstein castle). If you go the Murnau way you can get to the Hoernle area for nice walking around 800-1600m altitude (mostly wooded, but with grass summits). Garmisch and beyond (Mittenwald, Innsbruck etc.) give you access to the alps proper and some good VF (Mittenwalder Hohenweg, Alpsitze Ferrata, Mauerlaufer klettersteig, Hollental klettersteig etc.). Zugspitze summit is an excellent viewpoint on the edge of the alps and the Hollental klettersteig gets you up there if you don't want to pay for the underground funicular/cablecar (Be warned that the long cablecar will be out of order soon for replacement). Someone posted a link to the DAV huts website on here recently. Alpspitze has some easy climbing on it but I've not done any climbing in the area so can't comment. Herzogstand-Heimgarten ridge is a lovely easy day out but I don't know how practical it is without a car - I think you could do it from the train at the western end.
If you weren't bothered about seeing lots of places then Garmisch is the no-brainer - stay in the hut below the Alpspitze and do climbing on it and the 3 VFs from there.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
If you wanted a multi-day walk then consider the Lechtaler Hohenweg - a mix of walking & oldskool VF, with the opportunity for grade 2/3 summits on the way. I've not done it but it's on my hitlist. http://www.lechtaler-hoehenweg.at/ In terms of remote country....there isn't really anything truly 'remote' like Norway in that part of the alps, but you can certainly avoid the crowds by avoiding weekends and/or doing things that require an overnight in a hut.
Oh, in terms of the Rosenheim area....I've not been, but my missus lived there for a while and says there's lots to do round that way.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Right, thanks everyone - I've been doing a bit more reading around and the Northern Wetterstein looks great. One worry is weather - the original motivation was that my partner is already going to be on the continent up until the end of July, but the climate stats for June and July make them look pretty wet, ie 50% of days with precipitation.

Given that we're probably going to need to book leave in advance and can't plan a trip around a good forecast, what's the risk of just not getting much done? Does 50% of days with precipitation mean afternoon thunderstorms with everything dry again by the next morning? Or is it more like 50% of days with constant driving rain and the other 50% with everything still wet as a result? Would we be better off going in May and accepting that high stuff will be cold and North faces might still be icy, or leaving it til September and going straight from the UK?


Cheers!

In reply to Ramblin dave:
Could be anything. My first time up to the Meilerhütte was in July; we walked up in heavy rain that turned into a blizzard higher up, and walked down the next day in a foot of fresh wet snow (in cold soggy approach shoes). But last July I was in Oberreintal for five days; we had some showers every day but one, but we also managed to do a route every day and only got soaked abbing down in a thunderstorm once.

It's the Alps; you might get a week of stable settled weather but if you do you'll be lucky. But if you've got more than a weekend your chances of getting some good weather are pretty good.

But avoid the weekend of the Zugspitze fell race. That's usually a weather catastrophe.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

just be flexible enough to change your plans geographically - if that week happens to be wet on the north side of the alps, move on to Trentino or Tessin.