UKC

I take my four year old to the climbing wall and he likes it, but hes's four and he'd like his pal to come along too. What's the best way to handle that?, do I set the second child at the end of the rope and get him to pretend belaying? or whats the best approach? At four the attention span isnt great, so I wouldn't expect either to stand and wait their turn, so i'd like to involve both but not sure how.
Any advice would be appreciated?
Thanks

In reply to Seocan:

Bouldering, taking turns on suitable problems, that way the wait for a turn is much shorter.

Are they heavy enough to use the autobelays? If so one can be on that while you belay the other on a nearby climb.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

One of those wacky warehouse clip n climb places, where the climbing is more geared towards the smaller frame.

Come to think of it, some of my vertically challenged pals might benefit from a visit there too.

In reply to Seocan:

Break it up with different activities so the things they have to take it in turns to do are mixed up with things they can do at the same time, for example a bit of roped climbing one at a time, a bit of traversing at the same time (if there is a traversing wall or there aren't many other people there) a bit of bouldering. As they start to get tired you can wander round together looking for the novelty holds shaped like animals or fruit or faces etc, or break for a snack.

In reply to Mark Kemball:


Surely you're not suggesting a 4 year old climbs on an autobelay regardless of whether they are heavy enough to activate it properly?

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I thought of that, there's one at Ratho just now, the weekend slots are booked till April (that's as far forward as I looked).

In reply to EddInaBox:

thanks, sounds like you've been there done that.

In reply to pec:
I don't really see the problem - train them to jump off at about 2m, then get them to try it from a little higher etc. Would obviously depend on the kid, and there's the issue of judging if they're happy with the situation, but given that it should be OK. I'd certainly be happy for my 4 year old granddaughter to try if she wanted, and all these "Clip and Climbs" run on autobelays.

In reply to Seocan:

Just go and have fun.
First rule of indoor climbing when you're 4 or 40 is to have fun

In reply to Mark Kemball:


This is really annoying as another wall user on autobelays. Kids goes up jumps off and just sits around not really using it clipped in, while they have to wait as you're belaying the other. If there's only one or two autos, avoid doing this please.
I mean, I'm sure as a human we can talk to you as another human and say 'can I unclip this youth and go on', but it's not ideal.
As someone suggested earlier, break it up, bit of routes, bouldering traversing, and back to the start, so there isn't long periods of waiting. Like you suggested, get the 'backing up' you on belay.

In reply to Tim Davies:

We do anyway, the two of us. , what I was really after was advice, I mean , I see instructors with two on a rope and the non climber just being part of the setup but not really doing anything. The rope just feeds through his belay. What's going on there and is it something you'd recommend.

In reply to Tomtom:

This could be an issue, but it depends very much on the kid and the supervising adult - it should be fairly easy to work out if the kid is able to use the autobelay sensibly or not (ie is capable of making a reasonable attempt at climbing the line). Young kids can get a lot of pleasure and sense of achievement from this sort of thing.

In reply to Seocan:

The non climbing kid can do bell ringing belaying. You clip the belay plate to the kid and get him to stand with his back to the wall. He pulls the rope down and you pull the tail out. You lower the climber and just make sure belaying kid keeps his face to the side so rope doesn't rub.
Auto belays absolutely fine with wee ones too as long as you practice coming down lots

In reply to Mark Kemball:


The first problem I see is that the braking effect has barely kicked in after 2m, you'll almost hit the ground as hard as if you'd just jumped off from that height with no belay.
Assuming you overcome that, what if the kid freaks out near the top? You can't reassure them and gently coax them into letting go when they are freaking out whilst getting increasing pumped, furthermore you're belaying another 4 year old at the same time who may need your attention.
There's also the fact that they lower you pretty damn fast, lots of adults don't like using them for that reason and can you really rely on a 4 year old to land in a controlled way every time?
Finally, autobelays are of necessity on overhanging routes, otherwise you'd scrape yourself down the wall at that speed, can you really expect a 4 year old to climb a 10-15m overhanging route, they'd need some serious stamina by 4 year old standards to do that.
I'd be amazed if any wall would let you put such young kids on an autobelay in the first place.

In reply to Seocan:


Yes. Top tip is to make sure children who haven't done it before are comfortable with being lowered down before they get out of reach. Slabs often have the easiest routes to climb, but are the most awkward to be lowered back down, I have found that a rope up a vertical corner is best for practising lowering, it makes them feel a bit more secure, let them climb a few feet then get them to lean back and walk down, or practice bouncing down (in very short hops) SAS style to make it a bit more fun, but you have to control the decent, letting the rope out as they swing out and locking off just as they come back in and make contact with the wall.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Thanks girlymonkey, that's the term I was looking for, I wasn't familiar with it.
Now at least I can ask about it. Thanks everybody else as well.

In reply to pec:


I've done this with nephews, and seen others do it, and it's really not a problem (admittedly I've only done it will one-to-one supervision).


So they get half or a third of the way up ... then jump off ... no problem.


Generally they stop going upwards when they get uncomfortable with the height. They then gradually get used to greater height, and get used to jumping off and being lowered.


They're really unlikely to hurt themselves, even if they land bum first on occasion.

In reply to pec:

See girlmonkey's comment above. The key is to get them to jump off from gradually higher points so they get confident and don't freak out.

Not all autobelays are on overhanging walls. My local wall has one on a slab but it is positioned on a beam such that the climber swings out slightly and away from the wall.

In reply to pec:

We put kids of all ages on auto belays at our wall all the time. I make them all jump off several times within my arms reach to begin with and make a judgement on how competent they are. I then decide how far I will let them go and whether I need to stand behind them or not. I have in the past put a rope tail on the back of a harness to help control their position relative to the wall on descent.
Kids tend to prefer the autos to ropes.
None of our autos are on overhangs, you just use your feet to keep off the wall as you do on ropes.

In reply to pec:
My four year old uses an autobelay and climbs whole routes on it, the wall I use most frequently has no problem with this. He trained by letting go at steadily increasing heights (after a fair bit of top-roping experience). When on the autobelay I am 100% attentive to supervising him and would not be happy belaying another climber whilst he was using it.
The anxiety about braking speeds is misplaced - the braking is actually far more effective with lighter climbers, if you watch two climbers of significantly different weights top out simultaneously on adjacent autobelays the heavier climber will be back on the deck considerably sooner, even from modest heights the braking works pretty well with diminutive climbers.

In reply to Seocan:

The problem isn't putting a 4 year old on an autobelay, the problem is putting one on while you're locked into a belay with another 4 year old half way up the wall. The child cannot and should not be clipping in or un clipping from one.

Also, I imagine many walls will frown upon bell ringing when done by a punter and not an instructor.

In reply to Tomtom:



They include campanology at your wall? Cool - beats cheesy heavy metal soundtracks. I'm thinking it's a decommissioned church. Alien Rock?

In reply to Tomtom:

so don't put them on until you're free...agreed that the child should be clear that clipping in & out is a grown-up's job (TBH most 4-8 year olds wouldn't be able to work the push/twist/squeeze mechanism anyway), but as the Ivanator advises, build them up.
And i'm unclear why a wall would object - i can see that most would want to watch you do it initially to check you're safe at it (a bit like belaying!), but are you suggesting the technique is safe for someone with a CWA to do, but not someone with significant experience? Sounds like your wall needs a few more auto-belays, Tomtom (or you need to be a bit more inclusive about other people being there?!)

To the OP, the bell-ringer is useful, but you can also do the 'feeding the dead rope into a bucket' if you want...but as people have suggested, a variety of things to do is the best plan to break it up - our wall has top ropes, about 5 auto belays, a bouldering area, a cafe & a hard/soft play bit (and an ice wall, but i can't get stiff boots small enough for the kids ) and i can think of at least 2/3 others around the country with a similar set-up...

In reply to pec:

I'm perfectly happy for my 3 y.o. to go on the auto belays... In fact, he and his 6 y.o. sister will both climb adjacent routes hiding collecting cards or chocolates on the way up before swapping over.

In reply to Seocan:

I take my 3 and 4 year olds and they are happy to watch & wait their turn on a rope.
They can both boulder at the same time next to each other, with me spotting (the 3 year old is pretty good so I have to watch her but I know the 4 year old won't go higher than a metre as he gets scared). They also love holding the dead end of the rope pretending to belay.

I was surprised when I saw another parent with children at the wall, giving them her ipad to play on when it wasn't their turn. Both ended up deciding that the ipad was more interesting... which was a shame. They missed out on the other things I take the children to the wall for - a bit of inspiration from other climbers, encouraging each other, learning patience, etc....

In reply to Removed User:


But then back to my earlier point, that you will annoy other wall users. Clip them in, that's fine, trot off to belay the other youth for however long, meanwhile theres a child hogging the autobelay and potentially not actually using it. Where there's five autobelays, that's probably not an issue, but at smaller walls with one or two, at peak period, when I imagine the group in question will likely attend, it becomes an issue.

Sounds like your wall needs a few more auto-belays, Tomtom (or you need to be a bit more inclusive about other people being there?!)

Because unfortunately someone saying 'I have lots of experience' isn't always a guarantee that they have lots of experience, or even more so, actually competent. Although I'd happily debate the standards of the CWA, it is at least the industry recognition of 'experience'.

I can think of many walls that could use more autobelays, my local one being potentially one of them. But I'd rather not see the loss of lead or even bottom rope lines lost for the sake of an autobelay.

Inclusivity is not the problem, ensuring safety of minors under the supervision of someone with unknown experience is.

In reply to Tomtom:


I suspect the OP is able to make a judgement call on whether his kids will be in the way on autos or not! There's nothing wrong with the kids being on autos, but of course people need to be sensitive of other wall users.


You don't need much experience to bell ring effectively, the adult is in charge of the dead rope, and if the child stops pulling down, the adult can do the whole process. It's just normal belaying but belay plate on someone else. I might be wary of a customer supervising more than one rope doing this, but one rope is not hard for a competent climber. As staff, I might keep half an eye on him at first, but would certainly allow it if competent. A civil conversation with wall staff should clarify their opinion.


Our autos are also lead lines. You just release the auto and pull it down after your lead. It's actually great for teaching people to lead and lead belay

In reply to Seocan:

Would second girlmonkey's advice, and confirm that she does know what she's talking about; some folk on here appear to be speculating. Just don't plan on being in for long, expect to get much/any climbing done yourself, or have any expectations really; have fun and quit while you're ahead.

In reply to Tomtom:




Surely autobelays are for the kids, adults ought to rapidly progress beyond top-roping

In reply to pec:


Same as for an adult? They're not made of glass


Why different from tope rope? Probably better as you could climbing up if you needed to


Again, they're not made of glass..


1. Just the same as getting lowered from a top rope. 2. I'm sure four year olds can climb gently overhanging routes

In reply to pec:

Auto belays on vertical walls for... 4-8 year olds

https://www.edinburghleisure.co.uk/venues/edinburgh-international-climbing-...

In reply to Seocan:

Take toys and a colouring book. I've been known to tie my 3yr old to a balast bag with a colouring book while I belay my 7yr old.