UKC

Hi all,

I have very recently got back into climbing with the aim of getting outdoors at some point in time. As a result all of my time is spent indoors at present.

Obviously I want to practice outdoor techniques (where possible) indoors before actually braving the elements.

One thing that I want to do most is to be able to clip my own quickdraws. Whilst I understand that the permadraws already there are the next best thing I feel that it would be beneficial for me to set both the quickdraw and clip the rope in as if I was outdoors. My local wall, however, has all permadraws in place on the bolts and thus nowhere to place my own.

I have searched around however have uncovered nothing about this, and probably for good reason, therefore is there anything against placing my own quickdraw on a bolt that already has a permadraw in place even if my quickdraw was placed under the permadraw?

I did ask my local wall who actually went away to 'see if two will fit' but returned with the answer of 'it isn't good practice nor is it recommended'.

Cheers in advance!

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

If you're serious, (and I'm not entirely convinced you are) it's not really the sort of thing you need to practise. If you've climbed in the past, the action hasn't changed since you last did so.

Practise climbing not clipping.

In reply to Fraser:
Aside from the username, I am very much serious in asking the question.

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:
I think someone may sensibly argue that falling off with multiple draws through a single bolt is not good for the draws. Sounds like a lot of force being applied in a very chaotic way, not the way the things were intended to be used.

But as above, this is not a skill, let alone on that requires practice. You just clip the thing the to other thing. Tying your shoelaces requires significantly more refined motor skills.

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

What is it you are practising? being able to hng around for long enough to faff with gear? - Then just make a point of hanging for a while, reach up, reach down, scratch your nose and then clip?

If you are trying to practise the actual clipping of gear, this can be done from the ground much more effectively - no gear you'll place will leave the clipping loop in the perfect position in fact often it's sticking out at an odd angle etc.... just go find a couple of rocks or a wall with cracks, place gear and clip, repeat

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

Clipping a draw is no harder than clipping the rope, if you really need to make it more realistic, clip the rope twice.

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

Some climbing walls have lines you can out your own draws on. Do you have another wall nearby which might have this feature?

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

Climbing outside for the first time can be scary and so you are sure to want to practise every aspect. I think the above have been dismissive of your point. There are certainly good ways and bad ways to place a quickdraw.

My advice is to put a bolt hanger on something in your house, put your harness on and practise clipping it and then the rope with different hands and from different orientations. At the wall I'd advice touching your harness then then bolt hanger before you reach for and clip the rope. In your head think about which way you'd place the draw if you were outdoors (often it doesn't matter indoors but route direction outdoors can make one orientation favourable).

Definitely don't double draw a single bolt (except in some lower off scenarios outside).

Finally. Remember to try your best never to grab a quickdraw. Some of the hand injuries as a result of this are horrific.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Some climbing walls don't like/allow clipping in your own quickdraws even if there are lines of hangers, incase they drop on someones head as generally no helmets inside.

Hangers you can reach from the ground should be fine for a bit of practice. But other than the direction they sit you just clip them in. Like is said above more practice is needed holding on with one hand and clipping in the rope while lead climbing.

Practice at home e.g. on stairs

In reply to IainAhh:

Isn't that exactly what I said?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


If it is, he did it in fewer words...

🙂

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:
Clipping the quickdraw to the gear or bolt doesn't really need any physical practice, it's so easy.
It can however be wise to be mindful of which way this leaves the gate on the rope clip crab facing, in relation to which direction you will climb above, so that if you fall the rope is less likely to fall accross the gate and become unclipped with worrying consequences.
So if the route deviates left from the gear, best have the gates facing right (.? Someone please correct me if wrong, finding it hard to visualise now, haven't climbed for 4 months!)
Also, you want to be care ful not to backclip, and not to z-clip. Even if by yourself for autobelay, your wall staff can explain /remind you about these. You can practice these 2, i.e. not doing them, on autobelay, or top-rope, by having a few metres of cut rope length tied into your harness, to use as a pretend lead rope... clip each quickdraw, practicing clipping from reaching at arms length to the gear, and also try clipping some when level. When level and even more so clipping from just above them is worth a go too, as it's a bit more faff, and will help you realise this will have you panicking a bit at the crag if (getting pumped and reach for higher better?! holds to finish clipping the rope from) you do it .
There's a knack to clipping the rope which makes it look effortless, and it's worth practicing on autobelay / toprope, to feel confident that you aren't going to mess it up, especially when you get into pumpy situations and the hanging on to place gear or quickdraws and pull the rope can add substantial endurance requirements.
Also worth bearing in mind that clipping from below the qhickdraws, on the first 2 or 3 bolts, if you fall off with your slack to clip pulled out before you clip, you are more likely to come closer to / hit the ground, than if you clip when almost level / level with it, as discussed in a thread somewhere a few months ago.

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:
Some dismissive responses, some serious ones; I think there's a grain of truth in both.

I can follow the logic of why you might want to practice clipping draws, but why single this out as "the thing to be practised" or "the problem to be solved"? I think what the dismissive responses are getting at is that other factors - e.g. managing fears, balance, using holds effectively and stamina are going to be issues far more important to focus on than clipping, which has a few "best practices" (e.g. getting into a stable position; how to grip a quickdraw; sometimes, perhaps, thinking about direction of travel in relation to gate orientation), but is fairly intuitive. Personally, I did spend a little time practising how to effectively clip the rope one handed, as fumbling this is a waste of energy and sometimes quite stressful (!), but I never worried about clipping a draw to a bolt or gear.

Bearing all this in mind, I think you'd benefit from reflecting upon why you've singled this part of the process out as needing practice, and trying to think through what other factors might be involved. E.g. if you're rushing this, when you climb, is it because you're not finding a balanced position? If you're worrying about this in the abstract, is it that you're struggling to manage fears? If you're trying to train, are there more effective things to train and ways to train inside?

Again, personally, I often find myself trying to "solve problems" in my head (often when I'm meant to be working...); I think this is more to do with my climbing (and more general) psychology than my ability to perform any particular technical problem - my evidence for this being that, after I solve one "problem" (e.g. technique for abseiling with a novice) there's always another (e.g. whether I should make my rack lighter or whether I need big gear for a particular climb - even though, it's winter and I'm unlikely to get the opportunity for months, by which time I'll have forgotten my furtive calculations...).

It's a funny old game, climbing. Hope that this makes sense and is helpful.

I taught few people in the gym to clip bolts while lead climbing.

First you put top rope on route you will be practising. Belayer works only with top rope. Climbers goes on with both top rope and lead rope attached. As he climbs he clips draws to bolts (if where's enough space) or to fixed gear (if not) to practise. And clips lead rope after that to placed draws.

Protection and lowering are done only with top rope. Lead rope and draws are only for familiarising with process and explaining orientation of gates.

P.S.: Threading can be practised on the ground level with any hole/crabs/loops. Some gyms have a set of hangers, chains and bolts on ground level for teaching. But even on ground level I would suggest to attach anchor and actually hang on it. Even it's just few cm above ground. Generally people new to climbing find threading more complicated than clipping.

P.P.S.: Going to climb outdoors in not as serious / dangerous / adventurous as most of gym born climbers think. And best way to learn to climb outdoors is to climb outdoors. Myself and a lot of climbers actually started climbing outdoors first and only later went (or didn't) to climbing gyms.

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

Clipping two draws into one bolt hanger is a really bad idea, after a fall you might break the carabiner due to the metal being twisted against each other.

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

To simulate trad leading on a climbing wall, simply use a belayer who is unfamiliar with a grigri. The time it takes for them to pay out rope is approximately equal to the time taken fiddling in a wire and clipping it.

Problem solved, thank you.

In reply to 3leggeddog: my longest ever fall was at a wall and a belayer who was very familiar with a grigri, being a highly qualified rope acces technician. I giggled dangling just above the deck, he looked at me confused as to what had just happened!

In reply to springfall2008:

How do you propose this twisting will happen? Many bolts/hangers are designed to take more than one carabiner. I'm not saying it's a good idea but it's hardly a 'really bad idea'?

In reply to notaverygoodclimber:

Most walls have a few hangers knocking about to demonstrate ropework techniques. Play with those for 2 minutes then go climbing, you're worrying about nothing. Getting the rope into the clip safely is significantly harder and getting the clips back out once you're done is often the hardest part of sport ropework.
jk

In reply to andrewmc:

I think as you say if it's designed to take two that maybe fine, but if you are crushing two crabs against each other it could be very bad...