UKC

Turning a computer into a Router?

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 The Lemming 15 Feb 2017
I could ask this question on a computer forum but, as always, I get far superior IT advice on this fine forum.

Would somebody please advise what hardware I would need and how I would convert a computer into a router?

The plan is then to use the computer to encrypt all my internet surfing. I initially had this plan in mind when I hacked a Router to encrypt everything through a VPN but learned that the poor router was not up to the job of encrypting and my cable broadband and speeds fell quite considerably.
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 The Potato 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Would somebody please advise what hardware I would need and how I would convert a computer into a router?
chuck head, drill bits, motor, belt, gearing ..... oh right not that sort of router.
 JJL 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Or you could just keep your browsing to sites and activities that are legal in this country?
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 beh 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Depends how comfortable you'd be configuring something like pfsense? Ars did a couple pretty extensive articles last year -
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/04/the-ars-guide-to-building-a-linux-r...
https://arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/2016/09/diy-homebrew-router-speed-testing...

Do you really need everything through a VPN? Why not just have the client on your computer?
OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2017
In reply to JJL:

> Or you could just keep your browsing to sites and activities that are legal in this country?

Yawn!

I take it that you too like your privacy and would prefer that organisations snoop on your personal and private business while on line?
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 Climber_Bill 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

It is possible to use linux as a router. Try searching online.

I'd suggest a website with more details but there are so many that it would be hard to suggest one that is right for your need. I'm sure you will find what you need though.

Cheers,

TJB.
 Andy Johnson 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

It is possible to use a PC, but you're looking at either free software (such as OpenVPN) that is difficult to set-up and configure, or commercial software that comes with a price tag. Having an always-on PC to run the VPN bridge could also be noisy and expensive.

I think you original approach of using a router was the right way to go. It just sits there quietly doing its job. But I suspect that you need a router that is designed for the job, not re-purposed.

You could look for a router with "VPN Client"capability. That means it acts as the "client" end of the connection to the VPN server. The problem with this is that home/domestic routers rarely include this functionality, and you're looking at a business-class device. Look out for something like "SoHo Router with VPN Client", where "SoHo" means "Small Office / Home Office". For example, a Linksys LRT214 or something from Draytek. The sort of device that a small office might use to connect to a corporate VPN.

Your VPN provider may be able to suggest a suitable device. Whatever you get, you'd need to be satisfied that it is technically compatible with the VPN service that you want to use. Be aware that there are a few different standards (IPsec, L2TP, etc.)
 Andy Johnson 15 Feb 2017
In reply to JJL:
> Or you could just keep your browsing to sites and activities that are legal in this country?

I don't use a VPN at home and don't plan to do so, but it isn't helpful to assume that someone who does is doing something illegal. There are legitimate privacy reasons for choosing to use one.
Post edited at 17:07
OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

> .I think you original approach of using a router was the right way to go. It just sits there quietly doing its job.

I shall have a look into purpose built routers as well.

Cheers.



OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:
>In reply to JJL:

> I don't use a VPN at home and don't plan to do so, but it isn't helpful to assume that anyone who does is doing something illegal. There are legitimate privacy reasons for choosing to use one.

And here is just one small example of wanting to remain private.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/19/extreme-surveillance-becomes-...
Post edited at 17:05
 JJL 15 Feb 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

> I don't use a VPN at home and don't plan to do so, but it isn't helpful to assume that someone who does is doing something illegal. There are legitimate privacy reasons for choosing to use one.

Such as?
Genuinely curious why the average person feels anyone would be bothering to snoop
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 snoop6060 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

I occasionally have to build linux virtual routers at work for certain projects and there are various ways to do depending on what you are actually trying to achieve. Basic layer 3 routing, natting or whatever can just be done in iptables in a few commands. DNS, dhcp and other functions are pretty easy too really, again a nothing more than a few commands. More complex things like VPNs and such would require more complex tools. The idea of doing this at home does make me laugh though and I know what i'm doing (no offense intended). Just buy something fancy that works if you really want all the fancy features that come with enterprise level routers. Supporting all this when it goes tits is where it will start to annoy you.
 snoop6060 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Also - just to add to what I said above, the snoopers charter gives the government the power to hack your computer/phone/whatever whenever it feels like and it can deny it in court.

Your VPN (or any encryption) is only as strong as your private key. 1) You better trust your VPN provider that they don't have this key that the gov could get. 2) You better understand cyber security to the point of being able to protect yourself against a rogue actor exploiting your custom built router remotely to get said private key.

On number 2 if you are actually capable of doing that then you really are in the wrong business . But that said, if you did do this and have a properly patched and maintained linux server that is hardened correctly, it will be a dam sight more secure than any ISP provided BB router/modem combo which would take a child about 15 seconds to exploit.
Lusk 15 Feb 2017
In reply to JJL:

> Genuinely curious why the average person feels anyone would be bothering to snoop

So am I. He seems to be going to extraordinary effort to achieve it!

I started using one of those plug-in VPNs, or whatever they're called, once on Firefox. Then I thought, who actually is remotely interested at what rubbish I'm looking at on the internet and stopped using it.
I currently use 'people who are trying to sell me stuff'-Blocker, Ghostery and MS Essentials and get I get no ads, no pop-ups, no e-mails trying to sell me garbage; nothing.

If I was going to getting up to any kind of nefarious activity, I won't be going within a 100 miles of any electrical equipment to achieve my aims.
1
 remus Global Crag Moderator 15 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

This blog post might be of interest https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-scooter-computer/

I'd echo what others have said about it being a bit of a pain in the ass. Maintenance of this stuff gets boring after a while (tohugh your threshold for this stuff seems higher than most!)
 Duncan Bourne 16 Feb 2017
In reply to JJL:

> Such as? Genuinely curious why the average person feels anyone would be bothering to snoop

Well there is porn. People can be cage even about legal stuff (Swingers, fetishists, those people who like to dress as dolls etc.)
Also religion. Some religions punish apostacy severly and atheism is illegal in many countries. People of some ethnic backgrounds in this country could be putting themselves at risk.

Sexual orientation: being of a differing sexual orientation from those around you may be a risk. Only last year a gay man was arrested on holiday and his facebook account used as evidence.

Political activism: Being an avid supporter of particular political parties and pressure groups can be a risk for some foriegn nationals.

In the past it was very probable that it wasn't worth snooping but with increasing use of aautomated information gathering it would not be so difficult to get a computer to flag up particular themes.

For the vast majority of us their is very little I imagine that folk would be interested in but I can understand why people would not want their lives to be viewed by those they don't know.

 JJL 16 Feb 2017
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Well there is porn. People can be cage even about legal stuff (Swingers, fetishists, those people who like to dress as dolls etc.)Also religion. Some religions punish apostacy severly and atheism is illegal in many countries. People of some ethnic backgrounds in this country could be putting themselves at risk.Sexual orientation: being of a differing sexual orientation from those around you may be a risk. Only last year a gay man was arrested on holiday and his facebook account used as evidence.Political activism: Being an avid supporter of particular political parties and pressure groups can be a risk for some foriegn nationals.In the past it was very probable that it wasn't worth snooping but with increasing use of aautomated information gathering it would not be so difficult to get a computer to flag up particular themes.For the vast majority of us their is very little I imagine that folk would be interested in but I can understand why people would not want their lives to be viewed by those they don't know.

OK - but Lemming is (I think) in the UK. *Who* do you imagine would go to all that trouble for an average citizen? Think about what is actually involved to target an individual's connections and gather the data. Simply not going to happen unless there's a major underlying issue. In fact I suspect it doesn't other than when the police are involved. Facebook is a poor example as that's about controlling what you allow to be displayed; not on how you access it in the first place.
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 JJL 16 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

> >In reply to JJL: And here is just one small example of wanting to remain private.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/19/extreme-surveillance-becomes-...

Yes - I listened closely to the debate on the Investagatory Powers bill... and concluded that the benefits so massively, overwhelmingly outweight the potential drawbacks (and you do have to construct quite elaborate scenarios to see any), that I was and remain utterly unconcerned about the perceived risk and supportive of the bill.

It's naive to imagine that the security services aren't intercepting very serious activity on a quite frequent basis. The speed at which perpetrators are tracked - e.g. post Macalan - is also testament to the power of phone and web information.

It's also naive to imagine that security services (who really are the only people that can do this credibly other than fraudsters - and the fraudsters aren't going for browser history) have time to do anything other than pursue the hot list; and not even all of the hot list to-boot.
 JJL 16 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

> Yawn!I take it that you too like your privacy and would prefer that organisations snoop on your personal and private business while on line?

Less of the "yawn" please - doesn't help your argument.

Happy for organisations to review my browsing history. UKC, BBC, Amazon, Wikipedia, some woodworking, some wildlife, some Youtube, a bit of stalking my kids on facebook, delivery shopping, recipes, art and events, maps, theatre tickets... Seriously, isn't that almost everyone's list?

Yes I bank online - but my web history won't tell you anything important about that. I'm scrupulous about attachments and downloads. I have a separate e-mail for anything I'm not certain won't generate spam.

Do you seriously have browsing history (because that's what we're talking about here) that could be used against you? And if so, why on earth do you go to those sites?
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 Duncan Bourne 16 Feb 2017
In reply to JJL:

As I said for the majority of us there may be little of interest. Although......
I am of the opinion that if official sources can gather info on you then so can unofficial ones.
I don't think that a great deal of effort is involved in gathering data these days. Most of our stuff is sold on to advertisers and commercial ventures anyway.
 Mark Edwards 16 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

An example (just do a search on "raspberry pi router vpn wifi" or variations):

https://makezine.com/projects/browse-anonymously-with-a-diy-raspberry-pi-vp...
 JJL 16 Feb 2017
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> As I said for the majority of us there may be little of interest. Although......I am of the opinion that if official sources can gather info on you then so can unofficial ones. I don't think that a great deal of effort is involved in gathering data these days. Most of our stuff is sold on to advertisers and commercial ventures anyway.

That's what I'm testing really.

So I'm online right now. How much effort does someone have to go to to identify my web history from the past hour?

Without breaking into my ISP I can't see it happening without serious effort and the rewards really aren't there.
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OP The Lemming 16 Feb 2017
In reply to Mark Edwards:

> An example (just do a search on "raspberry pi router vpn wifi

Interesting little project. Don't suppose you have actually done this and can tell me how good the system is at encryption with broadband over 50mbs speeds?
OP The Lemming 17 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Hopeful bump for a recommendation of a router with fast VPN Client capabilities because my iccle brain hurts trying to read reviews of stuff I can not understand.

 Brass Nipples 17 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

So you want to hide the sites you are visiting, rather than just encrypt all the traffic? Is that correct? And you haven't made it clear, is this all the devices in the house, so phones tablets etc.
OP The Lemming 17 Feb 2017
In reply to Lion Bakes:

I wish to use the services of a VPN. I wish to use a router that will encrypt all traffic between my router and the VPN service.

At the moment I have flashed a router with DD-WRT firmware that allows it to encrypt all information between me and the VPN company with OpenVPN encryption. However I have now discovered to encrypt my surfing on the internet is exceptionally labour intensive for such a small processor within my router.

I now want to get a router, or convert a computer into a router, so that I can improve the encryptions speeds between me and my VPN company.

I am muddling my way through all this with no technical training what so ever, which means that I may be confusing or muddling up what it is that I am trying to explain and ultimately achieve.
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 Rob Parsons 19 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

> ... Would somebody please advise what hardware I would need and how I would convert a computer into a router?

A PC running Linux can do everything you want - provided you either already understand networking, or are prepared to put the serious time in.

> ... because my iccle brain hurts trying to read reviews of stuff I can not understand

If you just want a simple 'recipe', you're probably f*cked.
OP The Lemming 19 Feb 2017
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Thanks for the insightful and constructive reply.
 Luke90 19 Feb 2017
In reply to JJL:
> That's what I'm testing really. So I'm online right now. How much effort does someone have to go to to identify my web history from the past hour?

If the "someone" is a large ad network, almost zero effort. They do it constantly. That's why you sometimes see adverts for things you've recently searched for pop up all over the place.

I'm not particularly security paranoid. I used to occasionally dabble with browser add-ons designed to increase security or privacy but decided most of them were more hassle than they're worth and that ultimately I have no particular reason, personally, to be that worried. I can understand why some people worry, though. You don't need to be a terrorist or a pedophile to want privacy and the modern web does expose a vast amount of information about you which isn't as hard to access as people assume.

Take a look at some of the recent stories about undercover police forming long-term sexual relationships and even having children with members of animal rights or environmental activist groups and then tell me that our intelligence services would draw the line at merely intercepting the web traffic of somebody whose political activity they found interesting.
 snoop6060 19 Feb 2017
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I don't buy the argument that the government should be legally allowed to collect data on us. They are mass collecting all internet traffic (at least meta data about it) regardless of if they need it or not. And have been doing for years. THis is mass surveillance of the whole of our society. Not just bad people who with half a brain would be using methods to avoid detection anyway.

If we aren't of interest they should have f*ck all right to snoop on us. Law abiding citizens right to privacy was removed with that bill and that surely is wrong?
Post edited at 10:04
 wercat 19 Feb 2017
In reply to snoop6060:

for years is an understatement. From the first days of the post office mail was intercepted if the government had reason. It is the norm. GCHQ is the modern analogue of the time when the world's telegraph cables were run by Britain and hence we read everyone's messages, friend and foe alike.

I'm not quite sure where the impression came from that we have the right to conceal communications above a "normal" level of privacy. Possibly the idea originated with the 60s/70s counter culture's adoption of the ideal of personal computing for all, a romantic idea till it bedded down into the nitty gritty of ordinary life, warts, crime and all. In the early days of personal computing people didn't really imagine home computers being used for anything but good.
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 mp3ferret 20 Feb 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

You have a few options - the easiest (as i see it) are:

buy a cheap mikrotik router : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mikrotik-RB941-2ND-RouterBoard-hAP-Lite/dp/B00UR75...
or Get a Routeros image and run it on on old pc (routeros is the os for the mikkotik router)
or use Tor : https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en

There's a ton of resource on line for the mikrotik routers. Its quite asy to set it up as a vpn client.

Tor will encrypt and anonymise your browsing data.
OP The Lemming 20 Feb 2017
In reply to mp3ferret:

I've done a bit more reading about this possible project as the discussion has developed over the last few days. I have come to the conclusion that the best bet for my limited experience is to get a fit-for-purpose router rather than going to the expense of buying extras for a spare computer. The extras would most likely cost the same as a router anyway.


My experiment of hacking an old router with DD-WRT firmware has been successful and I managed to make it a VPN client. However I quickly discovered that the router's small processor and modest amount of RAM severely limited my broadband download speeds which many on a telephone broadband would be more than pleased with. However I am on cable and after encryption, I am only getting a tenth of the advertised speed, if I am lucky. I have to admit that in the real world of surfing and streaming I don't get much buffering but its a fun project and I'm learning all the time.

My next project will be getting my two routers to talk nicely with each other just for the fun of it.

Thanks everybody for your help and advice.


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