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In reply to dale1968:
Who would have thought it, falling 14ft is dangerous?
Hard to pass judgement on something like this without hearing all the evidence.
Who would have thought it, falling 14ft is dangerous?
Hard to pass judgement on something like this without hearing all the evidence.
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In reply to Alex Riley:
C'mon, this is UKC after all!
> Hard to pass judgement on something like this without hearing all the evidence.
C'mon, this is UKC after all!
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In reply to Alex Riley:
Sounds like she expected it to be free as well. What a catch......or not, rather.
Sounds like she expected it to be free as well. What a catch......or not, rather.
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In reply to Pete Dangerous:
I think it was a date went wrong. I think she was expecting her other half to pay, and perhaps to brief her as well...
> Sounds like she expected it to be free as well. What a catch......or not, rather.
I think it was a date went wrong. I think she was expecting her other half to pay, and perhaps to brief her as well...
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Well yeah. Third date she's meant to end up on her back, but not in that way.
> I think it was a date went wrong. I think she was expecting her other half to pay, and perhaps to brief her as well...
Well yeah. Third date she's meant to end up on her back, but not in that way.
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In reply to Pete Dangerous:
Did you by any chance fill this in recently? https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=657477&v=1#x8489191
Did you by any chance fill this in recently? https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=657477&v=1#x8489191
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Certainly it doesn't sound as if there was going to be any debriefing.
> I think it was a date went wrong. I think she was expecting her other half to pay, and perhaps to brief her as well...
Certainly it doesn't sound as if there was going to be any debriefing.
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In reply to dale1968:
To be fair pretty much all of the statements attributed to the injured climber sound like they're right out of the playbook of the ambulance chasers, so are very unlikely to have come from her without detailed prompting. Now whether she was happy to be so prompted and initiate proceedings, or whether her hand was forced by an insurance company that otherwise was threatening not to pay out, we aren't able to tell.
To be fair pretty much all of the statements attributed to the injured climber sound like they're right out of the playbook of the ambulance chasers, so are very unlikely to have come from her without detailed prompting. Now whether she was happy to be so prompted and initiate proceedings, or whether her hand was forced by an insurance company that otherwise was threatening not to pay out, we aren't able to tell.
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> In reply to Alex Riley:
> Hard to pass judgement on something like this without hearing all the evidence.
In reply to john arran:
> C'mon, this is UKC after all!
Literally?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=137399
"Barrister Catherine Foster, told Judge Martin McKenna"
She's doing well to fall 14 feet off a bouldering wall. If you stand on tippy toe and reach up 7 feet but then fall over do you say you've just fallen 7 feet?
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In reply to dale1968:
"They had a basic duty to inform her of the risks associated with the activities she was likely to be undertaking, as well as basic cautions which could be taken to control such risks."
How the hell do you get to 29 and not know that climbing off the ground may result in a fall? Does this also hint at a failure of police training?
"They had a basic duty to inform her of the risks associated with the activities she was likely to be undertaking, as well as basic cautions which could be taken to control such risks."
How the hell do you get to 29 and not know that climbing off the ground may result in a fall? Does this also hint at a failure of police training?
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In reply to winhill:
For 300 grand damn right i would
> She's doing well to fall 14 feet off a bouldering wall. If you stand on tippy toe and reach up 7 feet but then fall over do you say you've just fallen 7 feet?
For 300 grand damn right i would
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
I'm thinking the obvious might be escaping one or two folk, being that it depends on what height the lady's feet were at when she fell off. If a wall is 14ft high, a person could manage to fall while the lowest part of their body is 11 feet high off the ground, which even onto padding is a fair way to land on the small of your back from, even if it isn't quite 14 feet.
I'm thinking the obvious might be escaping one or two folk, being that it depends on what height the lady's feet were at when she fell off. If a wall is 14ft high, a person could manage to fall while the lowest part of their body is 11 feet high off the ground, which even onto padding is a fair way to land on the small of your back from, even if it isn't quite 14 feet.
Post edited at 00:22
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In reply to Timmd:
Oh i got that. But 'falling from 7ft' doesn't sell the story quite so much as claiming to have fallen the full 14ft, does it?
Oh i got that. But 'falling from 7ft' doesn't sell the story quite so much as claiming to have fallen the full 14ft, does it?
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In reply to Shani:
She obviously didn't! "She said if warned of the dangers she “either wouldn’t have done it or stayed very low to the ground mats.”"
"If someone had warned me that working in the coroner's office involved dealing with dead people, I'd have known not to try to hold conversations with them."
> "How the hell do you get to 29 and not know that climbing off the ground may result in a fall?
She obviously didn't! "She said if warned of the dangers she “either wouldn’t have done it or stayed very low to the ground mats.”"
> Miss Maylin, a former coroner’s officer who works as a civilian for the Met.
"If someone had warned me that working in the coroner's office involved dealing with dead people, I'd have known not to try to hold conversations with them."
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In reply to dale1968:
OK hands up, who plans to spend this weekend touring bouldering walls, throwing yourself from the top then attempting to collect 300k from each you visit?
I know I do.
OK hands up, who plans to spend this weekend touring bouldering walls, throwing yourself from the top then attempting to collect 300k from each you visit?
I know I do.
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In reply to Shani:
To be fair, it's reasonably well-known that the crash mats on bouldering walls give a false sense of security. Most walls I've been to do make a big thing of this. I'm surprised the XC didn't, as while I've only climbed there once they were insistent on giving a fairly comprehensive briefing in person even to experienced climbers.
> "They had a basic duty to inform her of the risks associated with the activities she was likely to be undertaking, as well as basic cautions which could be taken to control such risks."How the hell do you get to 29 and not know that climbing off the ground may result in a fall? Does this also hint at a failure of police training?
To be fair, it's reasonably well-known that the crash mats on bouldering walls give a false sense of security. Most walls I've been to do make a big thing of this. I'm surprised the XC didn't, as while I've only climbed there once they were insistent on giving a fairly comprehensive briefing in person even to experienced climbers.
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In reply to Timmd:
Being on the heavier side of things, if I fall from the top of a typical 4m bouldering wall I hit the ground like a sack of spuds. If that was awkwardly rather than paying attention how to land, I can see how I could get quite badly injured.
There is a definite impression among novices that "you don't need ropes so falling off is OK". Well, it is, but you have to pay attention to it.
> I'm thinking the obvious might be escaping one or two folk, being that it depends on what height the lady's feet were at when she fell off. If a wall is 14ft high, a person could manage to fall while the lowest part of their body is 11 feet high off the ground, which even onto padding is a fair way to land on the small of your back from, even if it isn't quite 14 feet.
Being on the heavier side of things, if I fall from the top of a typical 4m bouldering wall I hit the ground like a sack of spuds. If that was awkwardly rather than paying attention how to land, I can see how I could get quite badly injured.
There is a definite impression among novices that "you don't need ropes so falling off is OK". Well, it is, but you have to pay attention to it.
Post edited at 08:31
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Since we tend to spend our time at the wall with people who are pretty fit and spatially aware by the standards of the average person (actually, especially for the over-30s, extraordinarily fit) it's very easy to underestimate the amount of damage an unfit, overweight person with negligible core muscle tone can do to themselves by awkwardly dropping a couple of metres even onto crash mats.
Just look at the damage the Jump is doing to celebs, even people who were elite athletes in a different sport.
> Being on the heavier side of things, if I fall from the top of a typical 4m bouldering wall I hit the ground like a sack of spuds. If that was awkwardly rather than paying attention how to land, I can see how I could get quite badly injured.
Since we tend to spend our time at the wall with people who are pretty fit and spatially aware by the standards of the average person (actually, especially for the over-30s, extraordinarily fit) it's very easy to underestimate the amount of damage an unfit, overweight person with negligible core muscle tone can do to themselves by awkwardly dropping a couple of metres even onto crash mats.
Just look at the damage the Jump is doing to celebs, even people who were elite athletes in a different sport.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Didn't Joey Essex say; "If I'd been warned of the dangers of ski jumping, I either wouldn’t have done it or stayed very low to the ground.”?
> Just look at the damage the Jump is doing to celebs, even people who were elite athletes in a different sport.
Didn't Joey Essex say; "If I'd been warned of the dangers of ski jumping, I either wouldn’t have done it or stayed very low to the ground.”?
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
I mainly boulder when indoors these days and I see an accident involving an ambulance call out at least once a month. A few of these have been fit experienced climbers who clearly have no 'cat' reponse to rotating uncontrolled falls. Accident rates seemed very much lower when I was mainly roped climbing indoors (despite witnessing some occasional excruciatingly bad belaying and common less than ideal belay practice).
I'd never believe anything in The Fail.
Any modern wall allowing new climbers without a disclaimer and warnings about risk from falls onto mats, seems unlikely to me. It is important to do this as the risk is simply not obvious to a non-climber bouldering for the first time. Even at good walls stupid customers who should know better often get over-enthusiastic with advice and encouragement for non-climbing mates on first time visits. In risk terms I'd say its like teaching someone to ride a bike and once they get going not noticing if they go too far down the quiet street it leads out onto a busy road. Its so common I'd have it in the disclaimer if I ran a wall.
I mainly boulder when indoors these days and I see an accident involving an ambulance call out at least once a month. A few of these have been fit experienced climbers who clearly have no 'cat' reponse to rotating uncontrolled falls. Accident rates seemed very much lower when I was mainly roped climbing indoors (despite witnessing some occasional excruciatingly bad belaying and common less than ideal belay practice).
I'd never believe anything in The Fail.
Any modern wall allowing new climbers without a disclaimer and warnings about risk from falls onto mats, seems unlikely to me. It is important to do this as the risk is simply not obvious to a non-climber bouldering for the first time. Even at good walls stupid customers who should know better often get over-enthusiastic with advice and encouragement for non-climbing mates on first time visits. In risk terms I'd say its like teaching someone to ride a bike and once they get going not noticing if they go too far down the quiet street it leads out onto a busy road. Its so common I'd have it in the disclaimer if I ran a wall.
Post edited at 09:25
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In reply to Offwidth:
In all seriousness is there something about how people are signed in to revisit here?
When someone signs in a roped climber, they are taking full responsibility for their safety. This is quite easy to do, because they don't climb without the person who signed them in belaying (or some other competent climber who's signed off to belay), and walls do ask questions if a non-signed-off climber is belaying without being tailed (as I experienced once when someone belayed me who wasn't signed off - not deliberate on my part, but I didn't realise he'd been signed in by another person - maybe there's a case for having US-style harness tags to avoid such misunderstandings if they are in practice causing accidents).
Bouldering is different, because if you sign someone in for a boulder you tend to go on and climb with them, and while you might spot them while they climb when you do they then wander off, and as there's no physical rope to hold there isn't the same motivation to ensure the supervisor remains on the ground - nor the same need. It's also the case that bouldering briefings are done by most walls on demand and only take a few minutes. It's also reasonably obvious to a floor walker if bad belaying is going on, while it isn't necessarily obvious that a briefing about falling hasn't been given.
Therefore, there seems to me to be a reasonable case that if signing in a novice, they should receive a briefing from staff and sign a sheet (with questions to check they have read it[1]) to say they've read it, even if being signed in by another person, before they do any bouldering. If roped climbing only, that shouldn't be necessary, but it would depend on the wall's layout as to whether that was practical or not (i.e. whether staff would be likely to see it) - at Big Rock (MK) they would, the bouldering being the bit most visible to the desk, but at, say, Pinnacle (Northampton) they wouldn't as bouldering is in a separate room hidden away from the desk, and picking out people via CCTV is hard.
Big Rock sort of do this in that they don't allow bouldering-only members to sign people in - but is there a case for extending this to roped members, i.e. you can only sign people in for roped climbing, and all boulderers must receive the wall's briefing for new boulderers before taking part?
[1] One wall I've come across hides something silly in the standard ABC briefing text - something ridiculous (though I can't remember what it actually is) like "geese are only allowed to climb on a Wednesday". Having something like that is a very good way to ensure they actually read it - partly because you'll normally see a grin as they do read it, and partly because you can ask it as one of the briefing questions, so someone who's seen lots of ABC/BMC rules sheets before still has to read it!
In all seriousness is there something about how people are signed in to revisit here?
When someone signs in a roped climber, they are taking full responsibility for their safety. This is quite easy to do, because they don't climb without the person who signed them in belaying (or some other competent climber who's signed off to belay), and walls do ask questions if a non-signed-off climber is belaying without being tailed (as I experienced once when someone belayed me who wasn't signed off - not deliberate on my part, but I didn't realise he'd been signed in by another person - maybe there's a case for having US-style harness tags to avoid such misunderstandings if they are in practice causing accidents).
Bouldering is different, because if you sign someone in for a boulder you tend to go on and climb with them, and while you might spot them while they climb when you do they then wander off, and as there's no physical rope to hold there isn't the same motivation to ensure the supervisor remains on the ground - nor the same need. It's also the case that bouldering briefings are done by most walls on demand and only take a few minutes. It's also reasonably obvious to a floor walker if bad belaying is going on, while it isn't necessarily obvious that a briefing about falling hasn't been given.
Therefore, there seems to me to be a reasonable case that if signing in a novice, they should receive a briefing from staff and sign a sheet (with questions to check they have read it[1]) to say they've read it, even if being signed in by another person, before they do any bouldering. If roped climbing only, that shouldn't be necessary, but it would depend on the wall's layout as to whether that was practical or not (i.e. whether staff would be likely to see it) - at Big Rock (MK) they would, the bouldering being the bit most visible to the desk, but at, say, Pinnacle (Northampton) they wouldn't as bouldering is in a separate room hidden away from the desk, and picking out people via CCTV is hard.
Big Rock sort of do this in that they don't allow bouldering-only members to sign people in - but is there a case for extending this to roped members, i.e. you can only sign people in for roped climbing, and all boulderers must receive the wall's briefing for new boulderers before taking part?
[1] One wall I've come across hides something silly in the standard ABC briefing text - something ridiculous (though I can't remember what it actually is) like "geese are only allowed to climb on a Wednesday". Having something like that is a very good way to ensure they actually read it - partly because you'll normally see a grin as they do read it, and partly because you can ask it as one of the briefing questions, so someone who's seen lots of ABC/BMC rules sheets before still has to read it!
Post edited at 10:14
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In reply to dale1968:
Obviously it's hard to comment without knowing all the details, but it sounds like her date already had bouldering experience and probably signed her in as a guest. Now I don't know what the paperwork he signed said but generally is signing them in as a guest not signing to say you're taking responsibility for them in the climbing wall? If so does the responsibility not rest with her date to have explained that crash mats aren't some magical device which will catch you out of the air in perfect comfort and that gravity still applies and you should watch out how you land etc?
But even if he said nothing and the wall has said nothing on the dangers of bouldering I think its a pretty weak case that you claim you didn't realise it was possible to get hurt falling off a 4m wall. Maybe all walls should just put up a huge sign above the front door saying "Bouldering is dangerous" and have done with it.
Obviously it's hard to comment without knowing all the details, but it sounds like her date already had bouldering experience and probably signed her in as a guest. Now I don't know what the paperwork he signed said but generally is signing them in as a guest not signing to say you're taking responsibility for them in the climbing wall? If so does the responsibility not rest with her date to have explained that crash mats aren't some magical device which will catch you out of the air in perfect comfort and that gravity still applies and you should watch out how you land etc?
But even if he said nothing and the wall has said nothing on the dangers of bouldering I think its a pretty weak case that you claim you didn't realise it was possible to get hurt falling off a 4m wall. Maybe all walls should just put up a huge sign above the front door saying "Bouldering is dangerous" and have done with it.
Post edited at 10:27
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Is it really? Thick crash mats say "safe" to the uninitiated. I know it's not and you know it's not, but we're climbers.
> I think its a pretty weak case that you claim you didn't realise it was possible to get hurt falling off a 4m wall. Maybe all walls should just put up a huge sign above the front door saying "Bouldering is dangerous" and have done with it.
Is it really? Thick crash mats say "safe" to the uninitiated. I know it's not and you know it's not, but we're climbers.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Maybe there is a problem is with some joint use walls but I've never noticed it. I've always signed beginners in with clear responsibility for them in all the walls I've used. Quite a few bouldering walls actually do have big signs at the entrance saying bouldering is dangerous and lists of specific advice as to why, and how to mitigate against risk. The BMC produce resources for this, that any wall can use.
Maybe there is a problem is with some joint use walls but I've never noticed it. I've always signed beginners in with clear responsibility for them in all the walls I've used. Quite a few bouldering walls actually do have big signs at the entrance saying bouldering is dangerous and lists of specific advice as to why, and how to mitigate against risk. The BMC produce resources for this, that any wall can use.
Post edited at 10:40
I think for beginners it's the manner of the fall.
They tend to drop like a sack of shit, unlike someone more experienced who will be a little more "cat like". If you're not the kind of person who's active, ridden a bike - got a bit of "spring", then landing on a mat, like a pudding, is likely to end in tears.
Heels, arse, head, ambulance
It's the static nature of the fall.
I've crashed on the snowboard - belt down a slope, hit a kicker, bollox it up, land on my back and skitter to a snotty snowy halt - unharmed.
Hardly moving and sharking at girls, clip an edge = separated shoulder.
Having said that - it's fairly obvious even to a beginner that there's an element of risk and life comes pre-loaded with Risk v2.1
Post edited at 10:51
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In reply to Neil Williams:
I think you are over-analysing it. Of COURSE she knew that climbing was dangerous (fear of heights is one of only two fears we are born with). Of course she was aware that those padded mats have limitations (the same way we know we can hurt ourselves - or not, by jumping in to a swimming pool from various heights and hitting the water at various body-angles).
What is going on here is ambulance chasing. It is in the interests of lawyers to paint a picture of an underprepared member of the public exploited by another party (the wall owners) due to gross incompetence and carelessness. I doubt she is stupid. I doubt she is happy with how she is being portrayed. I don't doubt the appeal of £300k.
> To be fair, it's reasonably well-known that the crash mats on bouldering walls give a false sense of security. Most walls I've been to do make a big thing of this. I'm surprised the XC didn't, as while I've only climbed there once they were insistent on giving a fairly comprehensive briefing in person even to experienced climbers.
I think you are over-analysing it. Of COURSE she knew that climbing was dangerous (fear of heights is one of only two fears we are born with). Of course she was aware that those padded mats have limitations (the same way we know we can hurt ourselves - or not, by jumping in to a swimming pool from various heights and hitting the water at various body-angles).
What is going on here is ambulance chasing. It is in the interests of lawyers to paint a picture of an underprepared member of the public exploited by another party (the wall owners) due to gross incompetence and carelessness. I doubt she is stupid. I doubt she is happy with how she is being portrayed. I don't doubt the appeal of £300k.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Nobody has a cat response to rotating uncontrolled falls, you can't do that mid-air trick to land on your feet unless you have a tail to rotate in the opposite direction to your torso.
> I mainly boulder when indoors these days and I see an accident involving an ambulance call out at least once a month. A few of these have been fit experienced climbers who clearly have no 'cat' reponse to rotating uncontrolled falls.
Nobody has a cat response to rotating uncontrolled falls, you can't do that mid-air trick to land on your feet unless you have a tail to rotate in the opposite direction to your torso.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
I know what you're saying and maybe as someone who's been in and around climbing walls for most of my life it may have become default so its hard to grasp the mentality of someone outside of climbing. I just find it hard to believe that one of our most instinctual fears (falling from height =bad) can be so easily and totally overridden because you see a mat on the floor. She'll have been walking about on those mats and I expect have already jumped off / fallen from lower heights before her accident so she knew they are fairly firm. I suspect she knew she was risking a fall when she went for the top and knew that fall could possibly injure her but just wasn't expecting to fall and landed so badly, which is fair enough.
I've personally witnessing a person break their arm, and another dislocated their ankle with it folded over at 90 degrees from falling onto crash matting so I know injuries can happen, but its life every so often things go bad. I don't worry about getting in the car because I know I might die on this trip if we crash, but I do knowingly, even if only subconsciously accept that risk every time I go out.
> Is it really? Thick crash mats say "safe" to the uninitiated. I know it's not and you know it's not, but we're climbers.
I know what you're saying and maybe as someone who's been in and around climbing walls for most of my life it may have become default so its hard to grasp the mentality of someone outside of climbing. I just find it hard to believe that one of our most instinctual fears (falling from height =bad) can be so easily and totally overridden because you see a mat on the floor. She'll have been walking about on those mats and I expect have already jumped off / fallen from lower heights before her accident so she knew they are fairly firm. I suspect she knew she was risking a fall when she went for the top and knew that fall could possibly injure her but just wasn't expecting to fall and landed so badly, which is fair enough.
I've personally witnessing a person break their arm, and another dislocated their ankle with it folded over at 90 degrees from falling onto crash matting so I know injuries can happen, but its life every so often things go bad. I don't worry about getting in the car because I know I might die on this trip if we crash, but I do knowingly, even if only subconsciously accept that risk every time I go out.
Post edited at 11:36
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In reply to Offwidth:
Once a month? Blimmin eck! Let me know which wall you're talking about so I can avoid it.
> I mainly boulder when indoors these days and I see an accident involving an ambulance call out at least once a month.
Once a month? Blimmin eck! Let me know which wall you're talking about so I can avoid it.
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In reply to dale1968:
You're hearing the words of the lawyer and/or insurance company there - the woman may be lovely, we'll have no clue. They'll delighted by a dumbed down version of events in the Mail. Probably no 2nd date though.
Having taken a running mate bouldering this week, his instinct was a long way from 'big crash mat, safe as anything'
You're hearing the words of the lawyer and/or insurance company there - the woman may be lovely, we'll have no clue. They'll delighted by a dumbed down version of events in the Mail. Probably no 2nd date though.
Having taken a running mate bouldering this week, his instinct was a long way from 'big crash mat, safe as anything'
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In reply to Offwidth:
I agree - you're responsible, I'm responsible - but too many people aren't. The question I guess is where the wall's duty of care lies - it's easy to see if someone is belaying (or teaching belaying) badly, but it's much harder to see if a briefing is given properly unless it's given in front of someone. The easier mitigation may be that the wall gives that briefing to each new boulderer, whether signed in or not, themselves. It doesn't take long and wouldn't be a major overhead.
> Maybe there is a problem is with some joint use walls but I've never noticed it. I've always signed beginners in with clear responsibility for them in all the walls I've used. Quite a few bouldering walls actually do have big signs at the entrance saying bouldering is dangerous and lists of specific advice as to why, and how to mitigate against risk. The BMC produce resources for this, that any wall can use.
I agree - you're responsible, I'm responsible - but too many people aren't. The question I guess is where the wall's duty of care lies - it's easy to see if someone is belaying (or teaching belaying) badly, but it's much harder to see if a briefing is given properly unless it's given in front of someone. The easier mitigation may be that the wall gives that briefing to each new boulderer, whether signed in or not, themselves. It doesn't take long and wouldn't be a major overhead.
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
And I've fallen from the top of an obtacle on an OCR, ducked forwards to protect my head (instinctive and rather stupid) and as a result landed on my head and neck at the bottom. Was very, very lucky not to end up in a wheelchair, though it did give me nasty whiplash which was sore for months. But muddy obstacles with hard ground at the bottom are obviously dangerous and I chose to take a risk - to a layperson, crash mats = safe - why would you have crash mats if they didn't make it safe - and look how thick they are compared with kids' play parks?
I know that's the case, you do - but a random member of the public doesn't.
> I think for beginners it's the manner of the fall. They tend to drop like a sack of shit, unlike someone more experienced who will be a little more "cat like". If you're not the kind of person who's active, ridden a bike - got a bit of "spring", then landing on a mat, like a pudding, is likely to end in tears. Heels, arse, head, ambulanceIt's the static nature of the fall.I've crashed on the snowboard - belt down a slope, hit a kicker, bollox it up, land on my back and skitter to a snotty snowy halt - unharmed.
And I've fallen from the top of an obtacle on an OCR, ducked forwards to protect my head (instinctive and rather stupid) and as a result landed on my head and neck at the bottom. Was very, very lucky not to end up in a wheelchair, though it did give me nasty whiplash which was sore for months. But muddy obstacles with hard ground at the bottom are obviously dangerous and I chose to take a risk - to a layperson, crash mats = safe - why would you have crash mats if they didn't make it safe - and look how thick they are compared with kids' play parks?
I know that's the case, you do - but a random member of the public doesn't.
Post edited at 14:17
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
You can to some extent do it by moving limbs, though very few people are actually quick enough.
> Nobody has a cat response to rotating uncontrolled falls, you can't do that mid-air trick to land on your feet unless you have a tail to rotate in the opposite direction to your torso.
You can to some extent do it by moving limbs, though very few people are actually quick enough.
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
That one is quite interesting - why do people fear plane crashes when it hardly ever happens, but don't fear the much more dangerous act of driving to the airport. The psychology of that would probably be enough for a PhD.
And yes, driving to the wall is far more likely to get you killed than bouldering - but bouldering probably more likely to give you minor or moderate injuries, particularly if unfit.
> I don't worry about getting in the car because I know I might die on this trip if we crash, but I do knowingly, even if only subconsciously accept that risk every time I go out.
That one is quite interesting - why do people fear plane crashes when it hardly ever happens, but don't fear the much more dangerous act of driving to the airport. The psychology of that would probably be enough for a PhD.
And yes, driving to the wall is far more likely to get you killed than bouldering - but bouldering probably more likely to give you minor or moderate injuries, particularly if unfit.
Post edited at 14:20
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
Wow, there's an expression I haven't heard for a while!
> Hardly moving and sharking at girls
Wow, there's an expression I haven't heard for a while!
In reply to Neil Williams:
I'm not remotely surprised that the ambulance chasters are claiming that the XC didn't, as otherwise they have no case. Whether that claim turns out to be true or not, I suppose time will tell. (Or at least whether it's true or not as determined on a balance of probabilities by the court, assuming it does go to court.)
> Most walls I've been to do make a big thing of this. I'm surprised the XC didn't...
I'm not remotely surprised that the ambulance chasters are claiming that the XC didn't, as otherwise they have no case. Whether that claim turns out to be true or not, I suppose time will tell. (Or at least whether it's true or not as determined on a balance of probabilities by the court, assuming it does go to court.)
1
In reply to mcdougal:
I think its pretty standard for big dedicated bouldering walls. Don't you know anyone running such facilities.
I think its pretty standard for big dedicated bouldering walls. Don't you know anyone running such facilities.
In reply to Offwidth:
Perhaps the ABC should publish some statistics - a brief summary of the data they've collected over the last decade or so maybe?
Perhaps the ABC should publish some statistics - a brief summary of the data they've collected over the last decade or so maybe?
Post edited at 15:35
In reply to Neil Williams:
Show me a person who can do this in mid-air after falling off a boulder problem and I will be very impressed.
youtube.com/watch?v=RtWbpyjJqrU&
Cat's have tails, super flexible backs and no collar bones so they can turn round in mid air without violating conservation of momentum. People can't.
> You can to some extent do it by moving limbs, though very few people are actually quick enough.
Show me a person who can do this in mid-air after falling off a boulder problem and I will be very impressed.
youtube.com/watch?v=RtWbpyjJqrU&
Cat's have tails, super flexible backs and no collar bones so they can turn round in mid air without violating conservation of momentum. People can't.
2
In reply to deepsoup:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I have great difficulty believing a large commercial organisation hasn't got a system in place for informing users of the risks, (and getting a signature to that effect off the customer).
> I'm not remotely surprised that the ambulance chasters are claiming that the XC didn't, as otherwise they have no case. Whether that claim turns out to be true or not, I suppose time will tell. (Or at least whether it's true or not as determined on a balance of probabilities by the court, assuming it does go to court.)
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I have great difficulty believing a large commercial organisation hasn't got a system in place for informing users of the risks, (and getting a signature to that effect off the customer).
3
In reply to deepsoup:
I'm not so sure it would help and might well get misused, although I'd be very happy with an accident reduction resource with added Uk wide stats. My impression is accidents are largely despite the efforts of the walls already and often with culpable experienced climbers who should be more careful, especially with beginners. A wall makes an easier legal target though.
I'm not so sure it would help and might well get misused, although I'd be very happy with an accident reduction resource with added Uk wide stats. My impression is accidents are largely despite the efforts of the walls already and often with culpable experienced climbers who should be more careful, especially with beginners. A wall makes an easier legal target though.
Post edited at 18:13
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
It is perfectly possible to do that for humans, you just need to have enough height https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttetLjQ4du8&t=52s
> Cat's have tails, super flexible backs and no collar bones so they can turn round in mid air without violating conservation of momentum. People can't.
It is perfectly possible to do that for humans, you just need to have enough height https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttetLjQ4du8&t=52s
Post edited at 18:27
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
That's true but people can certainly be taught the basics of how to land safely. A day spent jumping off progressively higher walls during paragliding training certainly taught me to keep my feet together, have my knees slightly bent and to be prepared to roll with it which is now pretty ingrained.
That, and jumping in control before the inevitable which I think is probably the awareness that beginners most lack.
> Cat's have tails, super flexible backs and no collar bones so they can turn round in mid air without violating conservation of momentum. People can't.
That's true but people can certainly be taught the basics of how to land safely. A day spent jumping off progressively higher walls during paragliding training certainly taught me to keep my feet together, have my knees slightly bent and to be prepared to roll with it which is now pretty ingrained.
That, and jumping in control before the inevitable which I think is probably the awareness that beginners most lack.
2
In reply to Dave Garnett:
I mean this in complete sincerity, but this is what childhood is for.
> That's true but people can certainly be taught the basics of how to land safely. A day spent jumping off progressively higher walls during paragliding training certainly taught me to keep my feet together, have my knees slightly bent and to be prepared to roll with it which is now pretty ingrained. That, and jumping in control before the inevitable which I think is probably the awareness that beginners most lack.
I mean this in complete sincerity, but this is what childhood is for.
2
1
In reply to Shani:
True, if you had the sort of childhood I expect you and I had which involved a lot of climbing trees, jumping streams, balancing on logs and scrambling up unexpectedly exciting quarries. Sadly, for a lot of people, that isn't what childhood was.
True, if you had the sort of childhood I expect you and I had which involved a lot of climbing trees, jumping streams, balancing on logs and scrambling up unexpectedly exciting quarries. Sadly, for a lot of people, that isn't what childhood was.
1
In reply to Dave Garnett:
What you describe there is actually how i have pursued fitness in my adulthood. Most of my youth was spent playing in urban environments. I do get your point though.
> True, if you had the sort of childhood I expect you and I had which involved a lot of climbing trees, jumping streams, balancing on logs and scrambling up unexpectedly exciting quarries. Sadly, for a lot of people, that isn't what childhood was.
What you describe there is actually how i have pursued fitness in my adulthood. Most of my youth was spent playing in urban environments. I do get your point though.
1
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