UKC

This is a pretty basic question based on something I presume a lot of newcomers to the sport go through but it just doesn't seem to be a subject which is broached.

How the hell do you know if your own rope is going to be long enough?

For example, I was at Ratho on sunday for a little wind down treat for my daughter. I know the big wall is 30m and you use the in situ rope for top roping. There is also a sign at the bottom of the wall saying 60m rope must be used for leading this wall. Anyhow I have a 50m rope which is more than adequate for most walls we use. I may look like a total novice in my trackie bottoms and trainers but I have belayed my daughter 1000's of times and would never put her life at risk.

Anyhow, I look around. No sign of estimated heights. No mention of suggested rope lengths like the 30m wall. I go and speak to an instructor. He looks at me and informs me that only a 60m rope will do.

But not all the walls are 30m? I don't mind paying for a rope if its necessary but are you sure? Yep

So I start making the long walk up to purchase a rope at considerable expense. Whilst making the journey I chance by another instructor. I ask him the same question and he points to the signs for the 30m wall but then states that a 50m is fine for everything else. And to bare in mind any traverse etc in any climbs.

So I go to the wall to the left of the comp wall and my daughter leads a 6c. Whilst doing so ANOTHER instructor comes over and tells me I have been told to use a 60m rope and in any case they want the end of the rope knotted (Fine by me - it was tied into the rope bag anyhow). Daughter leads this climb and comes down. The instructor watched and then commented her surprise that as my daughter was 2/3rds down the half way marker on the rope had only just come out of the rope bag. Meaning we used maybe 30-35m of a 50m rope.

We then proceeded to lead on most of the walls other than the 30m. Guess what? I didn't see any with any major traverses. There was a few overhangs etc but nothing like 15-20m worth. In the end I noted that I never used more than 2/3-3/4 of the rope.

So this example aside, I am pretty certain not everyone carries around a 60m rope. Do you guys guess? Do you know by experience? Do you ask and get told to purchase a 60m rope?

My suggestion is the setter should put a minimum rope length beside the grading. It wouldn't take long and it would ensure the climber is informed before attempting it uncertain.

Yes I will be purchasing a 60m rope.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

In the past I've tied onto a top rope, trailed my lead rope and clipped it in at the top to make sure it's long enough. Quite often I have found that my 30 metre rope is easily long enough even when the wall says a 40 metre rope is required. I wish I had access to a 30 metre wall

Al

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I know people who claim to have led the 30m routes at Ratho on a 50m rope. They reckoned it was just long enough for the lower-off, with rope stretch!

In reply to Martin W:

No way I am trying that

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

You can comfortably do most climbs at most indoor walls near me on a 30m rope so it's not something I've ever really considered, my shortest indoor rope is a 40 so I've never even come close to the end.
That's what you get for living in the South I guess...

In reply to Dandan:
Kendal (25m), Sunderland (28m), Ratho (30m)

I think I need a 60m rope.........

TBH 50m is more than ample for 95% of the walls. My daughter does lead the 25m Kendal wall frequently but that with her coach so not an issue for me.

I just thought a 5 min job for a route setter would be a nice little health and safety cover for any incident where a wall user has underestimated the rope requirements.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Awesome Walls Stockport 'Tall Wall' is 23.5 m according to their website.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

The wall is being a bit over cautious, that's all, although sometimes you get the impression that it's in the wall's interest to over state the length of routes, a bit of kudos. Overhangs change the length as well, more than traversing I would hope, no-one sets traverses indoors, meandering might be a better way of describing it.

It's a bit of a non-problem though, because if the wall is generally over cautious then they'll be the same if they set a length for each individual route, so you end up going with their advice anyway. The worst that happens should be that you leave it for another day (rather than succumb to buying a rope at full retail in the shop!).

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I know of at least one accident (Pretty sure it wasn't at Ratho) a few years ago where someone had been happily climbing for several weeks on the lower walls using a "short" rope, but unfortunately then tried to use the same rope on the full height walls and lowered the climber off the off the end of the rope. People are stupid/careless/forgetful and I fully appreciate why a wall would recommend that only a rope long enough for safe use on all routes should be used.

What I do wish is that walls would advertise on their website (somewhere easy to find) stating what minimum length rope is needed. My current wall rope is 30m which is ideal for my local wall, but if I know in advance I can easily bring my 60m outdoor rope if visiting elsewhere.

In reply to winhill:

Thanks for the reply but it doesn't really answer the question. Regardless of them being over cautious and tbh even the height of the wall being 10/15/20/25m there isn't very often any indication of length of rope required.

As clarified above a climb at a 20m wall involves a lot of overhangs (Yep much more appropriate). How do I know if my 50m rope is going to suffice? Experience, ask the climber next to me, ask an instructor who tells me to purchase a 60m rope etc etc etc.

I am all for being overcautious but if I ask 2 instructors in the same facility and they give different answers then I am pretty sure someone who cant guage heights just by looking at them is going to have the same problems I had.

In reply to Jenny C:

Trouble is they only ever advertise the 'headline' wall. Ie the highest wall. I bet 75% of the users only ever use the 15-20m walls so they would be forcing most of their users to purchase new ropes

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
AFAIK the tower wall is 28m high and the highest of the other walls is 24m. The total rope length needed will also depend on details like overhangs and whether the route meanders a bit or goes across the roof on the new comp wall. Most routes go pretty much straight up but I remember one awesome route that went completely diagonally right across the old comp wall. On the other hand many ropes are a bit longer than the marked length and there's also rope stretch.

The bottom line is if you have a 60m rope you will be fine with a good margin for error. If you have a 50m then you need to take care. If you have a 50m and they don't recognise you as a regular it's no bad thing the instructors are keeping an eye out.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Hi Tom. Yes definitely appreciate any extra attention if they think there is a safety issue.

Its the "if you have a 50m then you need to take care" I struggle with.

What care? I haven't got a 50m tape measure I can use. If I walk upto a wall and it says 24m I can make an educated guess that it may need more than my 50m if there is a bit of meandering. If its a 20m wall then I can make a personal judgement that I have 10m spare plus any stretch (Not much with a 9yr old) for any meandering. I don't mind making an educated guess but walls don't really highlight anything other than their "Headline" wall height. When asked, the default was 60m. Not having a go at the guy because he was correct, but so would he be if he had said 80m or 100m.

People are going to walk into walls more and more, trying to learn the ropes like I did a few years ago and this kind of information could save a life. Even if a person is a novice, I believe they need an answer to a simple question like "How high is this wall"

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Keep it simple, you tell people one length that you know will work for all of your routes and go for it. I used to work at a wall where we said 50m rope. You could just about get away with a 40m rope with some rope-stretch and being a heavy bugger on the longest wall but 50m covered everything. If I was at Ratho I would take a 60m rope because that is the longest you will need, easy for everyone to understand.

In reply to JoshOvki:

Then I would say a wall should advertise a required rope length on their websites etc. Minimum length rope required =

At least then I wouldn't have cause to make a decision after 2hrs driving there wether I deemed it safe to climb on a 50m rope when it transpires it quite obviously was (Other than the big wall)

This isn't just ratho. If I decide to go to any roped wall, it would make sense for them to put a minimum rope length required (For its longest route) as you suggest OR as I suggest, put a required rope length on the climb or just state the wall height.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
When I've encountered this, I've noticed that walls where a 30m rope won't do tend to mark on the routes themselves the length required. 30m seems to be the lowest one you commonly get (excepting Simond ropes from Decathlon that seem to be available in 25m lengths for some reason I've never quite worked out).

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

My local wall has a section that is difficult to estimate - up, along a roof festooned with stalactities and lower off the end of that. It has a sign that says 'Don't worry, 30 m is plenty' I was belaying someone at another wall when the half-way marker (on a 30m rope) went through my hands. I advised the leader that that was as far as they went. If in doubt ask. What you do with the information you receive is up to you

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Just as a rough guide to estimating the height of walls, most are made from sheets of plywood (even if they have a textured surface added). These are 8'x4'(2.4mx1.2m) although they are sometimes cut in half to make square panels at 4'x4'(1.2x1.2m), add them up and you have the height of the wall.
Strictly, this is actually the length of the wall, if it overhangs its vertical height will be a bit less than this so you will need slighlty less rope for the lower off than to get up it, even less allowing for rope stretch.
In reality overhangs don't add much, a 10m high wall overhanging at 30 degrees is still only 11.5m long.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Whatever you do don't climb outside! Just use common sense and gain experience. If in doubt, don't climb the routes in question. I've climbed at Ratho for years and never had an issue with heights and notification of route lengths.

In reply to Fraser:

Why shouldn't I climb outside? Is a requirement for a 50m rope different outside to the requirement for a 50m rope inside?

If in doubt, don't climb. Yep that's fair comment. How about, if in doubt ask the height of the wall from someone who either knows or has this experience you mention which is what I did. I now have the experience to know that my 50m rope will suffice for 95% of the climbs at ratho.

I hope I am a little more helpful than telling someone to use common sense (Is that even applicable to estimating the height of a wall) if they are unsure

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


I don't think anyone should try to gauge heights just by looking at them. Recipe for disaster. I think a better question to ask the staff would be "Is my 50m/60m rope long enough for this wall?" rather than "How long does my rope have to be?" If in any doubt don't do it.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

One of our local walls is excellent at informing people of this. There are big signs, noting what rope length is required for each wall and is colour coded. They also provide ropes of the correct length for leading each of these walls.

Never had this as a problem tough, cause I'm a cheapskate and bought the cheapest fattest 60m rope I could and used it for everything.

In reply to GarethSL:

Thanks Gareth. That's a nice idea re colour coding.

Its easy to be flippant with someone who is a little unsure and wants to confirm. I wouldn't say I am a beginner to indoor climbing (Probably visit a roped wall once per week for the last few yrs. Belayed my daughter probably 1000 times at least). All I want to know is the height of a wall so I can make an educated decision on wether my rope is long enough.

One other thing that was a consideration when we were starting out was a 6-7yr old finds a thick rope difficult to pull through at anything over 15m. So we started at 30m thin rope, then moved onto the current 50m thicker rope as she has gotten older. I will now be purchasing a 60m thicker rope. When she leads at 25m plus or with a bit of traversing around corners etc then the pulling through of the rope becomes a big issue. These may not be issues for big burly blokes who climb outside and can guage a climbs height by experience but I have to consider them for my daughter.

Like it or not there are going to be many many newcomers to climbing walls and something like the colour coding at your wall may be a life saver to someone who isn't quite sure and makes an incorrect judgement call

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

I suspect that is why the wall is erring on the side of caution and insisting on 60m ropes.

I've got into the habit of knotting the end after a close call.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Because outdoor routes don't give you a nice little sign at the bottom saying how long they are. Plus, what happens after your rope has been chopped a few times once the ends become worn - will you still know exactly how long it is then? Like I said, use common sense and err on the side of caution or just get a *long* rope to cover all the bases.

In reply to Fraser:

But fraser, we have just had about 20 posts discussing the fact that neither do most indoor walls either. So if a climb requires a 50m rope inside and it requires a 50m rope outside I am no better informed in either instance. So really it doesn't matter, does it.

And if I have a rope that has been cut a few times, I'm pretty sure I would know my own rope has been cut a few times and take this into account or make sure I got a new rope. Still doesn't really make your point does it?

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Outside, most route lengths are purely guesswork on the part of the FA (or possibly guidebook author if there is doubt). I've known (long) pitches to be out by over five metres. Most walls publish a headline figure for the max height of their walls, and it's not too hard to make an educated guess as to how much shorter lower walls are - if you're outside there are often times when you can't see how long a route is from the bottom.

If it's a real concern to you, just mark the middle of your rope before climbing.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
It's actually a fairly trivial question.

As has belatedly been mentioned after much tangential debate, most ropes have a middle marker (or a change in pattern on more expensive ones) to solve EXACTLY this dilemma, or you can add one yourself. You can then just just stop climbing and lower-off if you get to halfway.

It works regardless of any errors with the wall staff measuring or estimating route lengths or guidebook lengths outdoors being wrong. It works regardless of whether your rope was cut long or has shrunk slightly in use. It also works with cut-down sports ropes as in most cases both ends will have worn fairly evenly and you will cut exactly the same off both ends.

With a middle marker the worst case is that you progress slightly by trial and error, initially lowering off a couple of clips before the top and then seeing exactly how much rope you have left including stretch before deciding whether you can actually lead slightly past the middle. That will often have been how various people have established that they can actually get away slightly shorter ropes than specified by walls.

Like many others I've got numerous different length ropes currently including 20m, 27m, 30m, 40m, 50m and 60m. For most of us who climb outdoors it just isn't an issue, if concerned you tie a knot in the end of the rope and if you do end up a bit short you just sort it out.

It also highlights the classic issue that people just don't know what they don't know. You obviously aren't happy to deal with the issue of running out of rope that most experienced sport climbers wouldn't even blink at and would have resolved before anyone else was actually aware of it.

However, in that vein there is no such thing as a silly question and it leads into the wider issue of how climbing walls are run. Most experienced climbers just want climbing walls to have a relaxed approach to things and just let them crack on. However there is an obvious tension in that desire when it comes both to novices and increasing numbers of under-18s. There are regular debates, although normally about walls being over officious rather than not prescriptive or informative enough. There are definitely wider issues and given how rapidly indoor climbing is evolving it's not certain how things will evolve in the future.

However, I'd be very careful about too much criticism of walls for being too relaxed. You are very much a beneficiary of the status quo. We are not a million miles away from the introduction of a "belayer qualification" and I'm sure you'd be the first person to complain if you had to do a formal training course and pay a substantial amount for it before being allowed to belay your daughter.

(edited to fix typos)

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


What doesn't?


As above.

If you just want folk to agree with you, just say so. If you don't, then don't be surprised when people respond with a different take on the situation.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Thanks for the reply. All of your response makes complete sense. My rope is indeed marked with the half way marker and of course its a perfect indicator of when to stop and going forward it will be quite easy for me personally to make this judgement (TBH I am just purchasing a 60m rope and be done with it)

The only thing I hoped for was that this highlighted that for newcomers coming into a wall, the question of "how high is this wall" isn't such a stupid question when used in context of judging rope lengths. I personally find it difficult to judge wall heights from sight alone and would find this info usefull.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

>So this example aside, I am pretty certain not everyone carries around a 60m rope.

I haven't bought anything as short as a 60m rope for years; 80m is the shortest rope I've purchased, and my European rope is 100m...

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

Well now that's me purchased a 60m rope so you can all relax that I should be prepared for most indoor walls in UK.

I still think its a good idea for walls to at least inform users of the height of a each wall within their premises to give users who cant quite guage heights the chance to make a good estimate of things.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo,

There are very few walls in the UK that 50m rope wouldn't be long enough for, Ratho's big wall probably being the main one as you've encountered. I think you can do Kendal on a 50m at a push but I'm sure if you asked they would recommend a 60m one for that too. I probably wouldn't go out and buy a new rope just for the odd route, but maybe when its time to replace the 50m upgrade to a 60m rope instead.

I like a lot of people also have a short 30m rope for shorter indoor walls, just because it's a right pain pulling through 60m of rope all the time when you're only using half of it at most, much easier to coil, carry around, pull through etc.

If your daughter is on a route where you think you may be pushing the limits of your rope make sure a knot is tied into the other end (or its tied to you) to insure you don't accidentally lower her off the end. And if you do find you've not enough rope to lower down, get her to clip herself directly into one of the quick draws in the wall, then take her off belay, let her pull the rope through from her end and then re clip it back into the quick draw shes clipped to. Then you can put her back on belay and lower her from that new point. Might be worth practicing that on the first bolt under supervision though as for someone young its probably not recommended. I've only had to do it on outdoor routes when the rope hasn't been long enough.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

You can easily do Kendal on a 50m. Most walls only need a 30m. But the OP's point is valid, making the wall height more clearly visible would be an easy and obvious thing to do.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:
The voice of reason.....thanks for the reply. That was my thoughts too. A 50m rope would be sufficient for 95% of indoor wall climbs. Those that it wouldn't be long enough for such as the 30m at Ratho, its signed anyhow.

The trouble I had was in asking a basic question which I presumed to be quite a sensible question (I have asked a few of my non climbing friends and they all think its a sensible question, to get a beginners perspective)

Like you, I had a 30m rope for normal walls but found that it was difficult to assess wether it was long enough so I bought a 50m rope which was good enough for 95%. Now I have a 60m rope which should be good for 100% of the indoor routes. TBH I have only purchased it because I don't want to be in the position of asking someone the same question again (How stupid is that considering I have probably belayed my daughter 1000 times and visit indoor walls twice a week for the last 3yrs).

With regard to tieing the rope at the other end. I used to presume that tieing it into a rope bag would ensure it was tied off. Surely a rope bag isn't going to get pulled through my belay device? But I will tie the rope off in future.

In reply to GrahamD:

That's an interesting point graham. I have never had the balls to let her lead the big wall at Kendal on my 50m rope, just in case with the overhangs etc it wasn't long enough. She has done it loads but with her coach. Seems I have been missing out.

Doesn't matter now, 60m rope sorted

In reply to Lord_ash2000:
.... if you do find you've not enough rope to lower down, get her to clip herself directly into one of the quick draws in the wall, then take her off belay, let her pull the rope through from her end and then re clip it back into the quick draw shes clipped to. Then you can put her back on belay and lower her from that new point. Might be worth practicing that on the first bolt under supervision though as for someone young its probably not recommended. I've only had to do it on outdoor routes when the rope hasn't been long enough.

DO NOT DO THIS!

Clipping into a single draw and coming off belay is an insane suggestion and would almost certainly get you banned from any wall in the country. There are so many ways a stunt like this could go wrong, even for an experienced leader. Call for help instead.

In reply to Le Chevalier Mal Fet:

Thanks for the heads up. I have no intention of here coming off belay which is why I started the thread. I always intended to buy the rope,

In reply to Le Chevalier Mal Fet:

Well if you wanted to be super safe, you could clip into the wall, clip into a bite in the rope (assuming you had a spare krab on you) Then untie pull the rope through the top then tie back in, wait until your belayer has taken in 20m or so of slack (or he can just take you off and put you back on again. then un-clip and untie the bite and lower from there. the only advantage being you've go the rope still in the clips below you as well. However, unless you've massively misjudged the length of the wall, you're likely only going to be 2 or 3 bolts up by the time you've run out of rope so its a bit pointless. And as you'd still need to be taken off belay (or have so much slack out you'd deck anyway as you're belayer is taking it all back in) then there is no real safety gain.

How would you approach a similar situation on an outdoor sport climb with just you and your belayer at the crag?