/ Self rescue hauling system

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Greasy Prusiks on 15 May 2017
Does anyone know of a good article /book/video on building and using a hauling system for self rescue? I've got a rough idea of the methods but want to learn from a recommended source.

Cheers.
danm on 15 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I'd have thought you of all people would already know this?
Post edited at 20:11
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planetmarshall on 15 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

David Coley of this parish has a good website, and also his book with Andy Kirkpatrick. Manual of Modern Rope Techniques is still the standard reference I believe.
Toerag - on 15 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

What is it exactly you want to set up? Give us a scenario.
Mark Eddy - on 15 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Second for David's book.
And for a DVD, Olly Sanders & Steve Long produced 'Self rescue for climbers'. It's really useful too.
Greasy Prusiks on 15 May 2017
In reply to Toerag:

Thanks planetmarshall I'll have a look at that.

Toerag; Some advice here would be useful. I spend some time on sea cliffs and want to expand my techniques for dealing with incidents. My current knowledge of rescue is poor - how to ascend a rope using prussiks and that's about it if I'm honest.

I'm thinking it would be sensible to learn to escape the system and set up a haul to bring up a second who is unable to ascend the rope?
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jezb1 - on 15 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Good on you for making the effort to learn the skills, I'm always surprised how many climbers don't.

I run self rescue courses, but the uptake is fairly low.
planetmarshall on 15 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

> I'm thinking it would be sensible to learn to escape the system and set up a haul to bring up a second who is unable to ascend the rope?

I generally learn these things in the order I'm most likely to use. So assisted hoist first, then unassisted hoist. I almost always belay directly on the anchor so escaping the system is trivial, though it's useful thing to know how to do.

David Coley - on 15 May 2017
Stu McInnes - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

There's a fair bit more to learn than ascending a fixed rope and escaping the system... These skills have very real possibilities for messing things up big time if done wrong,
Over the May Bank Holiday at the Pembrokeshire Climbing Festival we're running some cheap workshops in some of these skills... worth a look, and obviously we run self rescue courses throughout the year...

https://www.facebook.com/events/407693632911353/
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Toerag - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

The two main problems with hauling is making a belay you can haul off to start with, and having the right gear to set up a haul. That means setting up a bit further back than most people do.
Escaping the system is easy - rig direct belays so you're not part of the system in the first place. If you're worried about the belay being shock-loaded then clip yourself into the powerpoint and move yourself back so the weight comes onto you first.
SenzuBean - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Toerag:

> If you're worried about the belay being shock-loaded then clip yourself into the powerpoint and move yourself back so the weight comes onto you first.

My god that sounds so simple... why didn't I think of that.
rgold - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

For whatever it is worth, I think the system outlined by David Coley (with link provided by him) is the only system that has a chance of working in most realistic situations. The usual 3:1 methods and their complicated relatives are of theoretical interest but have too much intrinsic friction to be effective in the real world if the person to be rescued cannot assist, and most of the classical hauling methods rely on a level of brute strength from the belayer/rescuer that is almost certain to run out before a hoist of any substantial distance can be accomplished. The fact that these methods have persisted in the climbing literature suggests that the people who write the books (and draw the Petzl diagrams) haven't actually tested their proposals in any realistic contexts.

There seems to be no limit to the amount of BS people are willing to put out there. For an example of such shams, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaERKYT-fK4 , where the friction through a Reverso in guide mode visibly disconnects a strand from bearing the load, resulting in (counting friction) a 1.7:1 haul for most of the stroke. The rope is running down a slab and over an edge, adding at least a 120 degree bend with all the attendant friction (look up the Capstan Law) that will be added. The chance that she's getting anything beyond 1:1 is not good. Does anyone really believe she's raising an adult on the other end hanging in space?

All that said, if there are many hands on deck at the top of a crag and there is a path for the crew to walk away from the edge on while hauling, then an otherwise ineffective 3:1 setup can be made to work. (But perhaps in such a case a 1:1 haul would be even better...)
Fraser on 16 May 2017
In reply to David Coley:

Cheers for the link. I know virtually nothing about self-rescue so I really should learn, even though I very rarely do multi-pitch routes now, it's still a worthwhile skill set to acquire.
Adam Long - on 16 May 2017
In reply to rgold:

What he said ^

On rope access courses we teach everyone other than beginners a 3:1 haul to raise a bodyweight (75kg usually). Even with the right gear and no edge friction only the fittest and most expert can do this for more than about 8m with any speed. On a typical trad route with a belay plate and prusiks it isn't going to happen.

For crevassed glacier travel I'd say it is imperative pulleys are carried.

For dealing with an unconscious second you would be better off learning how to escape the system, raise the alarm, then descend to (and with) the casualty (ideally to a ledge) where you can administer first aid to stabilise their condition until help arrives.

In any haul getting the casualty over the edge at the top is a major issue, rescue teams use A-frames and/or lots of people. A descent then pickoff by heli and winch is likely to be the best option on most crags.
danm on 16 May 2017
In reply to Adam Long:

Fortunately, other than on sea cliffs hauling is rarely needed in the UK. Most crag bases can be reached in one 60m lower, failing that a counterbalanced abseil to a belay then abbing with the casualty is the preferred option as you can care for them whilst doing it. Hauling really is the absolute last resort.

A good idea for climbing on a sea cliff is to leave a grigri, pulley and jammer with the ab rope. I witnessed a very impressive rescue on Pabbay where a casualty was hoisted around 30m very rapidly because someone had left the kit ready for this purpose.
Rock to Fakey - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I'm not familiar with any but have read Libby Peters book Rock Climbing Essential Skills except the chapter 16 Multi pitch problem solving, which covers escaping the system, rescue / hoisting, which i presume is not easily learnt from a book until practiced, but just wondering how well the methods described there might fare in reality too, after seeing some comments above on how difficult it really could be?
Post edited at 15:26
Rock to Fakey - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Toerag:
> The two main problems with hauling is making a belay you can haul off to start with, and having the right gear to set up a haul. That means setting up a bit further back than most people do. Escaping the system is easy - rig direct belays so you're not part of the system in the first place. If you're worried about the belay being shock-loaded then clip yourself into the powerpoint and move yourself back so the weight comes onto you first.


But if you are a lighter weight + are pulled forward + then also shock load the system!... Is this something that could happen / to worry about, or is that only likely if not much friction in the rope system down the route?
But the closer they get to the end of being hauled, assuming they can unclip to pass gear as they ascend, that friction becomes less, until they just hang over the edge on you, + the belay. Then comes the scary bit, getting them over the edge onto solid ground?... This last bit, may be more risk of shock loading, trying, but struggling, to pull them over?

Going to read the links now...
Post edited at 17:01
Rock to Fakey - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Stu McInnes:
I don't do facebook, how much at the bank hol weekend?

I think i would have virtually no chance of operating a hip hoist or most hoists by myself, considering that i felt like i was recently doing it, with no climber to haul, just 2 x 10mm ropes getting through the top on a shortish linked multi pitch without long enough extenders!

The David Coley / Andy Kirkpatrick book is available only as an ebook. (HIGH - Advanced Multi Pitch Climbing)
Manual of Modern Rope Techniques is by Nigel Shepherd.
Post edited at 17:25
Toerag - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

> But if you are a lighter weight + are pulled forward + then also shock load the system!...
No, because you never get pulled over the edge and you're opposing the second's weight.

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Rock to Fakey - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Toerag:

If you are attached to the system hoisting, the anchors get shockloaded and then failed....
SenzuBean - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

> If you are attached to the system hoisting, the anchors get shockloaded and then failed....

It's simply not possible to apply a shockload via a large length of dynamic rope.
Rock to Fakey - on 17 May 2017
In reply to SenzuBean:
On the last bit of hoisting, just over the edge, there's very much less rope in the system. Perhaps still enough though?
What is the (other?) scenario then in which toerag suggests worry of shock loading the anchors?
Post edited at 21:12
SenzuBean - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

> On the last bit of hoisting, just over the edge, there's very much less rope in the system. Perhaps still enough though?What is the (other?) scenario then in which toerag suggests worry of shock loading the anchors?

As I understand it - Toerag said that you should use direct belays where possible, for the reason they are quicker and are much easier to perform rescues with. The comment about avoiding shock-loads is referring to being worried that normal belaying on a direct anchor can shockload questionable anchors - not any danger of shockloads during hauling.

As long as there's more than a metre of dynamic rope (or thereabouts - considering rope cowstails are shorter still), then there won't be dangerous peak loading.
Toerag - on 18 May 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

If you're bringing up a second, toproping or hauling it's highly unlikely that there will be any appreciable shock loads on the anchors - the rope should be fairly tight at the least. If you're using your anchor for a subsequent pitch then there's obviously the chance of a factor 2 onto the anchor.....however, being clipped in and able to take the weight as I describe is no different to being part of the belay in terms of your ability to 'protect' the belay from a shock load.

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