/ No Support for JC

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krikoman - on 16 May 2017

It wasn't on our telly so thought some might like some news.

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesVincent/status/864148725291257856


You've got to love Leeds
Post edited at 13:03
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Bellie on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

Better than the carefully stage managed appearances by Theresa May.
1
lummox - on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

Bit disappointing he didn't knock out a few tunes in the Brudenell afterwards though..
summo on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

Probably just every student in Leeds. You promise to drop tuition fees and legalise dope so not a shock. The surprise will come when they reach the world of employment and discover how labour are or rather aren't planning fund their plans.

Perhaps I'm wrong and Corbyn will romp home with a majority.

27
lummox - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

Given your unhealthy obsession with them, can you point out when Labour advocated legalising cannabis ?
1
summo on 16 May 2017
In reply to lummox:
Labour and lib dems both support it.
Post edited at 14:14
8
lummox - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

er.. that's the Lib Dems.
1
summo on 16 May 2017
In reply to lummox:
I grasped that press submit instead of review.

http://labourvision.org.uk/labour-vision/the-next-labour-government-should-legalise-cannabis/
Post edited at 14:16
1
lummox - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

that was a quick edit. Can you please give some evidence, other than the Lib Dem manifesto that Labour advocate the same policy ?
1
lummox - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

so.. not the Labour Party then ?
summo on 16 May 2017
In reply to lummox:

> that was a quick edit. Can you please give some evidence, other than the Lib Dem manifesto that Labour advocate the same policy ?

https://www.google.se/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-would-legalise-cannabis-870701...
1
Postmanpat on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

As the New Statesman pointed out some time ago:

"Unfortunately, recent British political history demonstrates that getting thousands of supporters to attend rallies is not a sign of electability. If anything, it proves the exact opposite.

One disturbing precedent is 1983. In this election, Labour leader Michael Foot decided to promote “the longest suicide note in history” by touring the country and speaking to groups of cheering supporters about nuclear disarmament. The week before leading Labour to a catastrophic defeat, Foot spoke to a crowd of 40,000, which you can see a picture of here. There's more footage of Michael Foot addressing crowds in the 1983 election in this documentary from the 1990s. As the Labour veteran John Golding put it: for every thousand people who were cheering at the rally, there were 122,000 outside saying you're crackers."
2
lummox - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

So.. advocating decriminalisation for medicinal use. Not remotely like what the Lib Dems are proposing.

Loving your work.
1
Lusk - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

Careful you don't drop those straws, now!
2
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Bjartur i Sumarhus on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

His plan to stop tuition fees would save me a fortune as I fully intend to pay for my kids uni education . seems like a gift to the middle classes. Unexpected ;-)

In all seriousness though wouldn't it be better if the free uni education was subject selective. I am happy for my taxes to pay for free uni education in subjects that are useful. If you want to spend three years studying art history and media studies then please pay for that yourself.
7
jkarran - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> In all seriousness though wouldn't it be better if the free uni education was subject selective. I am happy for my taxes to pay for free uni education in subjects that are useful. If you want to spend three years studying art history and media studies then please pay for that yourself.

No. Education for education's sake has value anyway but there is plenty of underappreciated value in the subjects that don't immediately transfer to the workplace (STEM gets all the attention). We'd quickly be hollowed out and culturally impoverished by denying a the best of a generation (as opposed merely to those with monied parents) an education in history, art, English, philosophy and all the other subjects which have no immediately obvious economic application. Education is an investment in a person, not just a workforce creation tool.
jk
3
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 16 May 2017
In reply to jkarran:

Right. But in a world where money is in short supply and currently all uni education in England is not free, then I think a balance would be better. Free up subjects where there is a need and demand for expertise and good opportunities. When times are better then we can pay for the softer subjects.

I think that would be more popular as a vote winner
7
Timmd on 16 May 2017
In reply to lummox:

> So.. advocating decriminalisation for medicinal use. Not remotely like what the Lib Dems are proposing.

They do seem quite different.

jkarran - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
> Right. But in a world where money is in short supply and currently all uni education in England is not free, then I think a balance would be better. Free up subjects where there is a need and demand for expertise and good opportunities. When times are better then we can pay for the softer subjects. I think that would be more popular as a vote winner

The expertise will be gone, who will teach the next generation the subjects you don't value, the people doing it now will be losing good jobs and they won't be going back to them in a decade or two when we finally twig we're missing something from our society.

High tuition fees are not a cost free way of reducing government expenditure. Sure student loans push personal debt and reduced spending problems down the line but to the very point where young graduates will even without a heavy debt burden be struggling to thrive, to compete with an aging workforce, to access competitive finance, to buy homes, establish businesses, to start families. They reduce the spending power of middle class families willing and able to pay. They deter poor but talented students justifiably afraid to get into serious debt nobody at home could help with for an uncertain return, we lose the value they would have brought our society and they lose a chance to break the cycle of deprivation. We do this for fear of maybe a penny in the pound on our tax bill. Shame on us.

I'm sure it would be popular but it is in my opinion shortsighted and mean spirited.
jk
Post edited at 15:20
3
Wanderer100 - on 16 May 2017
In reply to jkarran:

There comes a point where education for the sake of education becomes counter productive and I think we passed that point quite a few years ago.
Education might be an investment in an individual but all too often it's a wasted investment and a missed opportunity.
I agree with your point about maintaining culturally enriching degree courses but draw the line at David Beckham studies and other such stupid subjects.
4
krikoman - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

> Probably just every student in Leeds. You promise to drop tuition fees and legalise dope so not a shock. The surprise will come when they reach the world of employment and discover how labour are or rather aren't planning fund their plans.

Yes you're probably right, apart from the legalise dope thing, different party I'm afraid and a lot of the people in this and the other clips look a bit old to be students, but let's not spoil things with facts and that eh?.

Still nice of the BBC to show a different view to their normal showings.
Timmd on 16 May 2017
In reply to Wanderer100:

I've heard that a Masters has become the new degree unofficially, after Tony Blair wanting half of young people to go to university, and some of the new degrees which were created not being very useful.
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 16 May 2017
In reply to jkarran:

Why would the subjects disappear? They haven't yet. People still pay to study them with very uncertain job opportunities at the end of the course. I would suggest that anybody who is willing to get into £30k worth of debt to study philosophy is not going to be dissuaded by a free course to study maths. (But a free course to study philosophy might attract a load of people looking to avoid the reality of leaving school and getting a job) *

I don't disagree with your sentiment BTW, just trying to be pragmatic with the balancing act of limited funds.



* said with tongue in cheek

1
Wanderer100 - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Timmd:

My daughter went to the Glasgow school of art. She achieved a first class degree with distinctions in installation art and sculpture and then 12 Months later went to the Royal college of art in London where she achieved her Masters. A great academic record.
She now works as a waitress in a Cafe in Glasgow.

2
krikoman - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Wanderer100:

> There comes a point where education for the sake of education becomes counter productive and I think we passed that point quite a few years ago.


Really, why do you think that, surely any knowledge is power. I'd love to go and learn more shit, but I don't have time or the money to be honest and it would be because I want to learn stuff not for any ulterior motive. After saying that who's to know that me learning something about Turkish carpet weaving wouldn't result in me coming up with a novel way to repair torn heart muscle tissue?

Who is going to be the arbiter of "good" and "bad" subjects?

3
jkarran - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Wanderer100:

> I agree with your point about maintaining culturally enriching degree courses but draw the line at David Beckham studies and other such stupid subjects.

Most of these are just jazzed up existing courses, a couple of extra modules bolted on to anthropology or sociology or something similar to make it more eye catching in what has become a competitive market for bums on seats. Tuition fees did this, they aren't the solution to it!
jk
Wanderer100 - on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:



If everyone paid for their own education then fine but they don't and too much and too many become a drain on the public purse and money just flows into the waste pipe again and again and again and we all end up wondering why there isn't enough money to open more hospitals or pay more to teachers or keep class sizes under 30 or why we can't find a decent inner or sparky or painter decorator but in the meantime some idiot is dreaming up more ridiculous ways to waste money in the name of further education and desirable degree qualifications.
3
Timmd on 16 May 2017
In reply to Wanderer100:
That's shame. I hope she manages to find some kind of spin off which is still art related? I sometimes feel that if I stayed in Sheffield for the duration as it were, that could close down certain avenues, if I move away for university and then move back again. A very clever friend has finally struck lucky in Sheffield while following her science related path, but she's 30 now and it's taken a lot of work, and some turning down of opportunities which would have meant her leaving her adopted home city and boyfriend. I don't suppose the cuts in arts funding have helped your daughter.
Post edited at 15:46
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summo on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

> I'm afraid and a lot of the people in this and the other clips look a bit old to be students....

What is the upper age limit for being in full time education?

I get your point, the rest were probably bused in by unite. ;)

2
Moley on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

We won't know the the truth till they've counted the X's after election day.
Bulls Crack - on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

He was here in Hebden Bridge yesterday too. Unsurprisingly a good percentage of the town turned out to see him but can't help feeling he should have been further down the valley in our useless Tory MP's face
Trevers - on 16 May 2017
In reply to summo:

> I get your point, the rest were probably bused in by unite. ;)

I thought this was a uniquely Tory trick. Unfortunately even Tory activists struggle to feign interest in what May has to say.
1
neilh - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Wanderer100:

My mother's carer has a degree in philosophy. I suppose you could argue he can talk about life and death. Nice guy.
krikoman - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Moley:
> We won't know the the truth till they've counted the X's after election day.

True, I only really posted to counter the trope that Labour no longer have lost their support, even more surprising was this was the BBC!

Like you say we'll only know the truth after June.

It's a bit different to Mays' stage managed and select audience clips we're seeing as she travels around the country.
Post edited at 18:28
1
Fraser on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

> Who is going to be the arbiter of "good" and "bad" subjects?

Employers presumably. A Masters in a completely obscure and useless subject is just that.

krikoman - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Fraser:

> Employers presumably. A Masters in a completely obscure and useless subject is just that.

Is it, or does it show someone has the wherewithal to do some research, to be able to present that research.

How do you decide a masters is a waste of time before they actually go and do it? It's a little late after it's done and they go for a job, surely by then you've already paid the teaching establishment for the education they had.

To be honest I don't think a degree is that much of an indicator, I went to poly with a bloke who beat me in every exam, but he was thick as pigshit. He had no sense of applying hat we'd learnt to real world examples, if the problem was one to which he'd come across before he was fine. Any sort of sideways thinking or ingenuity was missing.

2
Moley on 16 May 2017
In reply to krikoman:

Are the promises of these election weeks (on all sides) known as pre-truth?
Ridge - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> I am happy for my taxes to pay for free uni education in subjects that are useful. If you want to spend three years studying art history and media studies then please pay for that yourself.

Sort of agree. However we do need 'arts' to contribute to society.

I never went to Uni, (along with about 95% of the denizens of our crap comp in 1980's Leeds). However the 5% who did were bloody smart kids, and I'd be happy for my taxes to fund the top 10% academically, even if they're studying Mesopotamian Papyrus Media Studies.

We need to get away from the obsession that Uni is everything. It's important to have education to expand peoples minds and enrich society, but I'm not paying for some numpty who'd be out of his depth in a car park puddle to go to an ex poly and "lern critical finking and shit".
BnB - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Ridge:

> I'm not paying for some numpty who'd be out of his depth in a car park puddle to go to an ex poly and "lern critical finking and shit".

If Corbyn gets in, you are.
Lusk - on 16 May 2017
In reply to BnB:

> If Corbyn gets in, you are.

Good.
I'd rather pay for some numpty getting some critical finking lessons than put more cash into a millionaires bank account


3
BnB - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Lusk:

> Good.I'd rather pay for some numpty getting some critical finking lessons than put more cash into a millionaires bank account

I doubt we'll see a better distillation of Corbyn's economic suicide note from the BBC 's finest. Top work.
Big Ger - on 16 May 2017
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> He was here in Hebden Bridge yesterday too.

Oh god, whenever I hear that town name, my inner Viz comes out...

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BnB - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> Oh god, whenever I hear that town name, my inner Viz comes out...

Eh?
Big Ger - on 17 May 2017
In reply to BnB:

on the bus to Hebden bridge
phr. Descriptive of a lesbian woman; especially a woman who has recently started to exhibit sapphic tendencies.

Named after the UK's official lesbian capital-- Hebden Bridge in West Yorkshire.

"You know that woman you were chatting up last night? The one wearing chunky boots, a pinstripe suit and with the crew-cut? You'll have no lucky with her mate, she's on the bus to Hebden Bridge"

by Roger Mellie 84 January 17, 2008
BnB - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

I'm aware of the association. I'm from HB!! But I'd forgotten Roger Mellie's contribution to the nation's obsession with our little town. Thanks for the reminder.

PS Todmorden and Cornholme (up the valley) are more likely nowadays to fit the popular image.
Lemony - on 17 May 2017
In reply to neilh:

Philosophy's an extremely employable degree. In my year at uni it had better employment outcomes than almost any of the engineering subjects. I walked out of it and straight into a job and use the skills it taught me literally every day. Having a decent level of training in deconstructing ideas and reconstructing them in new and interesting ways is something which is of benefit in a huge range of jobs.
neilh - on 17 May 2017
In reply to Lemony:

Which Uni and what year?
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