/ Kilnsey Crag.. please, please.........again!!!

nigel baker - on 19 Jun 2017
Kilnsey, Yorkshire. (World Premier Crag)

Once again, please can I ask climbers to be thoughtful and considerate when parking around the crag - in particular by the farmer's access gates. There is plenty of parking nearby - only a few minutes away.
Strongly worded complaints have already come in. If people park in such a way as to irritate the farmer we could end up with the crag being policed (as it now is at Blue Scar) or even banned (such as Foredale).
Also please consider taking quick-draws off projects. The farmer/owner finds this an eyesore.
Let's all help to keep Kilnsey fully accessible. We will all benefit.
Thank you.
Nigel Baker BMC Yorkshire Limestone Rep.
1poundSOCKS - on 19 Jun 2017
In reply to nigel baker:

Hi Nigel,

There did used to be a sign on the tree on the LHS of the road by the stream explaining the situation (3 cars max I think). I couldn't see one when I was last there a couple of weeks ago. Do you know if there's still a sign there?

Thanks.
spidermonkey09 - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to nigel baker:

Hi Nigel,

As someone who hadn't climbed much at Kilnsey before I couldn't really work out whether parking on the left hand side of the road (heading past the crag with it on your left) was legit or not. I assume this is the section opposite the gates that you mention.

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to just put a load of big BMC signs up there imploring people to park in the layby further down and accept the 5 min walk? Seems to me that it's not worth the potential aggro that the farmer could cause by continuing to park there at all.
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to spidermonkey09:
> Wouldn't the easiest solution be to just put a load of big BMC signs up there imploring people to park in the layby further down and accept the 5 min walk?

For info, I was there yesterday and didn't see any signs. Not sure what happened to them. Whatever the advice, as long as it's clear, unambiguous and in agreement with the farmer then it's just down to communication and co-operation. If people aren't aware of the rules, or choose to ignore them then it won't matter what the actual rules are.

EDIT: And there's a new bolt in the start of Frankie. Thanks to whoever took the effort. A clip-stick-able one in the start of Directissima would be nice.
Post edited at 10:59
danm on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

The problem with signs is that they are an eyesore, degrade with time and are often stolen, removed or damaged mischievously. The advice on the BMC website is pretty clear and unambiguous, well it is to me at least. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/malham-kilnsey-access-issues
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to danm:

> The problem with signs is that they are an eyesore, degrade with time and are often stolen, removed or damaged mischievously. The advice on the BMC website is pretty clear and unambiguous, well it is to me at least. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/malham-kilnsey-access-issues

I'm just dealing with the reality. The advice has always been there and people don't see it or ignore it. What is the solution? Not sure if you've noticed, but even in a rural area there are signs everywhere!
danm on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

My point about signs is based on experience of seeing what happens to them, in reality. In some ways, signs can help people abdicate personal responsibility - a classic one is the no dog signs at Bamford, which were a bit small and got faded. People then started saying they hadn't seen them and ignoring the ban. When you were at the crag yesterday, did you see any bad parking or people using permadraws, and if so, did you self police and have a word? I'm not having a go, I just think this is as important as any signs or website posts.
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to danm:
> When you were at the crag yesterday, did you see any bad parking or people using permadraws, and if so, did you self police

There was a fourth car in the 3 car spot but I didn't know who it belonged to, and I wasn't sure of the rule anymore. A couple of friend's were intending to leave draws in overnight and I mentioned this post to them. There was a lot of doubt expressed over whether the farmer is actually bothered, or can even see them. So they were left in.

I think people should feel happy to challenge people. I think being able to point to obvious signs would help in this regard.

EDIT: This is a bit confusing from the website link:

"The landowner finds quickdraws left in place on projects an eyesore - please remove your kit between attempts if possible."

Sounds like cleaning after each redpoint attempt? Good luck for anyone climbing on North Buttress.
Post edited at 11:58
danm on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Well now you know, next time it will be easy to ask at the crag "Is car X yours, if so you need to move it, cheers."

To me the website is obviously saying take your draws out before you go home. The point won't have been mentioned if it wasn't important and your friends should have removed their draws. Smack their bottoms next time you see them

That wasn't my dislike btw !
Post edited at 12:06
Cloverleaf - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS: [There was a lot of doubt expressed over whether the farmer is actually bothered, or can even see them. So they were left in.]

I think whether or not he can even see them is immaterial, it's his land and therefore he is well within his right to dislike them being there. And if there's even a slight bit of doubt over whether or not it's acceptable to do something, I'd suggest that you then already know the answer and that is to not do it, whatever 'it' may be.
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to danm:

> Well now you know, next time it will be easy to ask at the crag "Is car X yours, if so you need to move it, cheers."

It's never easy to confront people, if that's not your bag, and for many of us it isn't.

> To me the website is obviously saying take your draws out before you go home.

The article linked is ambiguous with parking and with the draws situation (between attempts?). And whether they should or not, it isn't happening so something needs to change.

> That wasn't my dislike btw !

I don't care. Not playing to the crowd, just trying to be constructive. I hate Kilnsey anyway, too steep and I can't get up anything. Might ease my mind if access is banned.
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to Cloverleaf:

> I think whether or not he can even see them is immaterial, it's his land and therefore he is well within his right to dislike them being there. And if there's even a slight bit of doubt over whether or not it's acceptable to do something, I'd suggest that you then already know the answer and that is to not do it, whatever 'it' may be.

But again the reality is they are getting left in. Maybe it's hard to stop it, but we need suggestions, not moral high ground.
Fruit on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to nigel baker:

There are a few posts below about signs and rules, I think you captured it with thoughtful and considerate.
Cheers
Cloverleaf - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I don't think it's the moral high ground, just an explanation of how I view things like that. If you're questioning it then you know the answer. Whether or not you then choose to ignore your doubt is up to you. But, the more people who do ignore that doubt then the more standard it becomes, and so the doubt gets eroded, and the practice becomes entrenched. Safety in numbers and all that; 'oh, but those other draws were already in so we didn't think ours would make it any worse'.
danm on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

OK, you wanted a suggestion - tell your friends to take out their draws next time.
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to Cloverleaf:

> just an explanation of how I view things

From a slightly higher spot on the moral hill of those you're judging.

Anyway, I don't disagree with abiding by the rules, but they are ambiguous.

I was confronted by an angry local in Malham. I was parking where I think it's open for all to park, but I moved because he had steam coming out of his ears and I was obviously a climber. It's sometimes difficult to balance. We all want to see access preserved, but if people don't see rational, unambiguous "rules", the more people will likely break them. Ignoring human nature on both sides won't get us anywhere.
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to danm:

> OK, you wanted a suggestion - tell your friends to take out their draws next time.

No. Next?
sammy5000 - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Open season on crag booty it is!
Post edited at 13:29
1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to sammy5000:

> Open season on crag booty it is!

Already happened. although the owner was just down the other end of the crag. Apparently people saw it happening, and were suspicious, but the thieves still weren't confronted. Most climbers I see out aren't confrontational and that has a positive and negative side. Applies to thieving and crag access rules.
Toerag - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to nigel baker:

Is there only 1 path to the crag? If so put a sign on it about the parking that's close enough to the road that someone will go back and move their car.
Tyler - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> Already happened. although the owner was just down the other end of the crag. Apparently people saw it happening, and were suspicious, but the thieves still weren't confronted.

I think the perps were wearing hi-viz jackets so it looked legit.

1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to Toerag:

> Is there only 1 path to the crag?

There is one obvious crossing point from the parking which causes the issues. There was a sign on the tree by this crossing last year, but it's gone.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> No. Next?

Why not? Or are you pulling legs?
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1poundSOCKS - on 21 Jun 2017
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> Why not? Or are you pulling legs?

I've never been comfortable telling anyone what to do really. Some people are more confrontational, I'm not. I informed them of the access "rules". If people know about them, and choose to ignore them, I won't be going around ordering people where to park and to strip their draws.