UKC

The summary of this post is: why do the men’s and women’s Katanas have different rubbers?

I am considering some Sportiva Katanas as my next pair of shoes; I am a street size 4 with wide, flat feet but narrow heels. I currently wear Tenaya Masai in a 4 which I find too tight, particularly in warmer weather and on longer pitches. I also have some Scarpa Velocity shoes in a 3 that I’ve had re-soled in C4 Stealth for use as an indoor wall shoe, which I have also found to be too tight after wearing for a while - OK for indoors though. The problem is not so much the length of the shoes but the width, as my feet bulge out the sides. I would prefer a Velcro fastening over laces and an all-rounder that will allow me to climb a variety of mostly trad routes in the mid grades.

I was pointed in the direction of the women’s Katanas in a size 3 with 3.5mm XSGrip and I found them fairly comfortable, particularly over other shoes I tried on at the time (Ocun Ozone Plus – too stiff in the toes and Tenaya Oasi – too narrow in the toes and slipping in the heel), even though they are reputed to cater for a narrower foot. I had excess space in the heel so wanted to try a ½ size lower for comparison, but the store did not have any in stock. I’m not trying to cripple my feet my buying more aggressive shoes than I need, but some gear sites & reviewers also suggest buying them 1 size below street size so I am now looking online.

Following a quick Google search and a perusal of the manufacturer’s website, I have discovered that the men’s version has 4mm XSEdge whilst the women’s has 3.5mm XSGrip. Ideally I would prefer a thicker (longer lasting) rubber, but this does not seem to be available in the women’s version and having smaller feet, it is difficult to find a bricks and mortar retailer that stocks the men’s in the right size. I have not tried the men’s version for this reason and I would prefer to do so before committing to a purchase.

I was quite happy with the Katana when I tried it on and after several shoe buying attempts I haven’t found anything that fits better yet (although as mentioned I would like to try in a ½ size smaller before buying) so I’m not so much looking for shoe buying advice as I think I’ve found something worth giving a go (I may have to take my chances online).

Stocking issues aside, I am interested to know why the two versions have different rubbers. If they are fundamentally the same shoe with the women’s just being “low volume” (my understanding is that this means the shoe is more shallow and not so much about how soft the shoe is) then what necessitates the different, thinner rubber? Presumably the thicker edging rubber would make the shoe stiffer but not any deeper. With the possible exception of “volume”. I don’t see women and men as having fundamentally different requirements in a shoe really (and presumably some men have low volume feet too), so why the difference? Must a low volume shoe be softer than a standard shoe? What if someone with a low volume foot specifically wanted a stiff edging shoe? Are we just being conned into buying less durable shoes by gender specific marketing or is the difference justified?

In reply to eb202:

I'd imagine it's because the high volume shoes are generally bigger and hence need a stiffer and thicker sole to maintain the same stiffness across the shoe. I'm guessing but that's the only mechanical reason I can think of.

In reply to eb202:

Another example of classic casual sexism from La Sportiva.

Outrageous. Ban their import. Burn their homes. Exile their children.

In reply to eb202:

Because women have better, more precise footwork and don't wear shoes out so quickly?

In reply to eb202:

Someone from La Sportiva explained their reasoning to me a few years ago. The two rubbers have slightly different properties - XS Grip2 is, as the name suggests, slightly grippier, whilst XS Edge is firmer and stiffer. In actual use, La Sportiva think that XS Grip2 is only more effective (grippier) if you weigh less than 8/8.5 stone. Their view is that men hardly ever weigh less than this, and that therefore it's more effective to make all men's shoes with Edge rubber instead.

In reply to whenry:

Thanks for this - I always wondered why Sportiva used XS Grip on the women's version of their shoes.

For what it's worth my better half prefers the XS Grip rubber as she says it gives more feedback than the thicker XS Edge. As a comparison she was using Muira VS's in both women's and men's at one time and really didn't like the men's version.

In reply to eb202:

I've heard similar about the weight argument before too - women on average are lighter than men, apply less force through their feet and benefit more from the grippier rubber (XSGrip2) over the XSEdge. Also anecdotally, I'm around 8.5 stone and find the XSGrip2 on my Scarpa Instinct VSR/Booster S "stickier" on the same holds than the XSEdge on my Scarpa Boostic/Instinct Lace, particularly if the foot isn't 100% weighted. Obviously not a direct comparison due to different construction, midsole, stiffness etc., and not quantitative, but I thought it was noticeable.

And if we want to go down the route of Sportiva's casual sexism, I think I take bigger issue with their insistence on making ladies shoes pink (Katana, Solution, Kataki, etc...)!!

In reply to eb202:

Does one of the rubber compounds only come in pink or turquoise?

In reply to eb202:
XS Edge is a good all round compound where XS grip is softer and stickier. XS edge is therefore good at edging but slightly less good at smearing. The rationale that Sportiva make for using softer rubber on some women's models are that women are lighter so therefore the rubber deforms less on edges allowing a softer compound to be optimal for that weight range. It kinda makes sense. I have Katana Laces with XS edge and Solutions with XS grip. Whilst the fit is similar they do have different pros and cons which I attribute to the rubber as much as the model. It's also worth noting that lasts are different between lace and velcro models, i.e. a Katana lace is wider then the Velcro and the Mura Velcro is wider than the lace in my experience.

In reply to eb202:

Thanks everyone for your replies, the stiffness and weight arguments make sense. ?

In reply to planetmarshall:

No, it sometimes comes in purple too.

In reply to eb202:

My wife has small feet (she makes a hobbit look like Krusty the clown) and finds small shoes with the same thickness as blokes' models really clunky. A bit like wearing clogs (apparently). So maybe the reduced thickness is more due to the (average) women's shoe being smaller and therefore perform better with a slightly thinner sole, rather than more scurrilous reasons.

In reply to eb202:

I'm not convinced that either version of rubber is significantly more or less sticky than the other in the range. I think it is about the softness/stiffness of the rubber, which in turn affects how easy it is to get lots of it in contact with a smear on a steep slab.
3.5mm rubber is easier to bend than 4mm rubber, so assuming that your average lady is lighter than your average male, your ladies shoe needs to be slightly easier to bend (because there's less weight being applied) to achieve a similar "Katana" (as opposed to "Miura") level of softness.