/ crookrise access

blackcat on 16 Sep 2017
someone told me there is no access to crookrise crag and the moor from emsbey during the shooting season,is this correct.
Wizzy - on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:

Hi,

I was up there at the end of last month. There was a notice up saying that there was no access to the crag on a selection of days throughout the shooting season. Luckily we were up there when there was no shooting. It might be worth checking with the BMC?

Hope this helps.

Chris
sammy5000 - on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:

So if the BMC now own crookrise, god knows why as its on crow access land anyway bit of a waste of money for some toffs who had no use for it anyway.
Wouldnt that now mean there should be access at all times as its owned by climbers for climbers.
Otherwise what a total crock of shite!
I would go no matter what I have no time for anyone who says you cant go here or there!
blackcat on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to sammy5000: Reason i asked was a climber was turned away by council officials this morning,ive used this place year round and never had a problem.
sammy5000 - on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:

Very odd council officials? What was there reasoning?
Ive go nowt better to do tomorrow as ive no climbing buddy so might have a wander up yon crag with my mat! And a large jar of verbal obceneties! I love a f*cking good row especially with landowners who think they own everything including the local roads haha
webbo - on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:
The public footpath which you use to get to the crag is probably not owned by the BMC and the landowner is allowed to close it during the shooting season as long as they put up a notice to say they are doing so. The council were probably just ensuring no one got shot.

blackcat on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to webbo:They just told him to avoid going up to crookrise,and said he could go up to embsay crag,due to the shoot.As i said ive been up there tonnes of times and never been challenged,apart from bouldering problems
Bulls Crack - on 16 Sep 2017
In reply to sammy5000:

A you say very odd if council people were there

The CROW map shows a public footpath going to the edge of access land and no restrictions -should have been able to access it
climbwhenready - on 17 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:

Hello,

They are correct. Crookrise is owned by the BMC but the access route is across Barden Moor. Public footpaths cannot be closed for shooting but the access footpath is a permissive path only, not a public footpath.

I am amazed you were turned away. Does the council have nothing better to do? I imagine they must have actually been turned away by a member of the Bolton Abbey estate, who are the landowner.

I think there is room here for the BMC to negotiate with the landowner as the permissive path to Crookrise is on a part of the moor not used for shooting..... but that's the current situation.
Andy Say - on 17 Sep 2017
In reply to sammy5000:

The land above Crookrise is CRoW Access land. The land below isn't. There were serious concerns that the land below the crag might be bought and used for new plantations hence the purchase.

So now there IS access at all times. If you approach by parachute, rather than on foot, during the few days that the access may be closed for shooting (I've never known that to be the case) you should be sorted.
climbwhenready - on 17 Sep 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

Actually....

1) the land will become CRoW in 2018. It is currently under a separate access agreement.
2) all CRoW land can be closed for grouse shooting (there are rules about when). The current Barden Moor access agreement has similar rules. This is the case quite frequently on Barden Moor between August and October.

https://boltonabbey.com/barden-moor-barden-fell-closures/
alisonk on 18 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:

Also dogs are banned on Barden Moor unless on a public ROW, which means they cannot be taken on the permissive path to Crookrise. The gamekeeper has been known to approach people on the moor and turn them back when they have dogs, including dogs on leads.
Tall Clare - on 18 Sep 2017
In reply to alisonk:

We've had that happen - they're *very* particular about that, to the point where even with a dog attached to a waist harness you're not allowed to descend on the footpaths that come out in Eastby.

We've also been turned away at the gate up to Crookrise, but by a Barden estate employee, not by a council worker.

As someone who lives in Embsay I do feel a bit resentful about it all, as the moor is such a big space that so many people could enjoy, but I don't know how the situation could be changed, short of a revolution...
Simon Caldwell - on 18 Sep 2017
In reply to climbwhenready:
Thanks for adding some true information to an otherwise largely wrong thread!

At the moment, closures are not advertised on the Open Access maps, because they are subject to the previous local agreement. This has caused us problems in the past until we found out (it's closures due to both shooting and fire risk).

Once it reverts to CRoW next year, any closures will have to be listed on http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk
Post edited at 10:17
Bulls Crack - on 18 Sep 2017
In reply to alisonk:

The path up past the reservoir is a public bridleway going onto access land. The access area can be shut for up to 28 days each year without a formal restriction
scoobydougan - on 18 Sep 2017
In reply to sammy5000: Well said Comrade

GrahamUney - on 18 Sep 2017
In reply to blackcat:

I contacted the BMC Access Team about this recently, and was told that yes, the BMC do own Crookrise, but not the land that you'd have to cross to get to it.

I then phoned the Bolton Abbey Estate who own/manage(?) Barden Fell and Barden Moor. They close the moor for about a dozen dates each month during the shooting season. These dates are published on their website here: https://boltonabbey.com/barden-moor-barden-fell-closures/

Hope that helps.

blackcat on 19:39 Tue
In reply to GrahamUney: Cheers for info graham.

Rob Dyer, BMC - on 11:10 Thu
Just to confirm what others have already said, the BMC owned land is limited to a relatively narrow strip of land around the crag itself and is effectively landlocked with no public rights of way leading to it. Barden Moor (and the footpath to the crag) is currently under an access agreement until 2018 which effectively provides the same right of access as CRoW access land (ie area access without any linear rights of way.) Following 2018, it will be designated as access land under CRoW.

There is a permanent dog ban in place as part of the current access agreement and this will likely continue post 2018 so although the BMC have no problems with dogs at crags, as you have to cross Barden Moor to get to Crookrise please don't take dogs to the crag. There are also up to 28 days per year that the landowner can use to temporarily restrict access, and this will also continue post 2018 (as is the case with all access land). Currently the dates are posted on Bolton Abbey's website but post 2018 will be on Natural England's open access pages.

In other news, following a successful first meeting of the newly formed Crookrise Advisory Group last week, we're aiming to accurately mark out the lower boundary of BMC owned land (which doesn't follow any hard features) before we can plan any improvement work that might be needed . Finding a rural surveyor who can do this is proving difficult, so if anyone has any contacts in the Yorkshire area that does this sort of work, please get in touch by email: robd@thebmc.co.uk or phone: 01614383309.

Cheers
Rob Dyer
BMC Access & Conservation Officer (England)

Will Hunt - on 13:49 Thu
In reply to Rob Dyer, BMC:

> Currently the dates are posted on Bolton Abbey's website but post 2018 will be on Natural England's open access pages.


Is this the case for all estates, Rob? The Bolton Abbey estate are very good at publishing when they're closing the moor for shooting, but other estates don't seem to post dates online. This might be because they don't insist on closing the entire moor when shooting?
Rob Dyer, BMC - on 14:49 Thu
In reply to Will Hunt:

This example is quite an anomaly really as most moorland will already be designated as access land. It's only the fact that there was an existing access agreement with the National Park Authority for Barden Moor that means it isn't designated until 2018, so dates aren't listed on the Natural England website.

For the vast majority of other estates which will be access land, any restrictions temporary or permanent should be listed on NE's website - here's the link: http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk/wps/portal/oasys/maps

Of course that relies on the estates informing the NE Open Access team when they are exercising their rights so that it can be added to the site - something I understand they are required to do, but some are good at this and others not.
climbwhenready - on 17:31 Thu
In reply to Rob Dyer, BMC:

Hi Rob,

Is there any prospect of the BMC tying to negotiate with the landowner to allow access along the permissive path when shooting is occurring elsewhere? I don't believe for a minute that people shoot from Embsay Reservoir towards Deer Gallows, so use of that path to get to crookrise shouldn't actually affect shooting.
toad - on 17:39 Thu
In reply to Rob Dyer, BMC:

Is this the same shoot that lost the tenancy of the nearby NT estate?
webbo - on 20:53 Thu
In reply to climbwhenready:

> Hi Rob,

> Is there any prospect of the BMC tying to negotiate with the landowner to allow access along the permissive path when shooting is occurring elsewhere? I don't believe for a minute that people shoot from Embsay Reservoir towards Deer Gallows, so use of that path to get to crookrise shouldn't actually affect shooting.

I wonder what world you live if you believe that these landowners have the slightest interest in anybody else being on their land. Even Hen Harriers, Merlins and other birds of prey aren't welcome never mind some city dwelling climbers with a dog.
Simon Caldwell - on 22:37 Thu
In reply to webbo:
This particular landowner allowed access to their land many years before CRoW was even thought of
Post edited at 22:38