UKC

As I climb more different kinds of VF routes in different regions, I get pushed to try more different procedures and equipment to help make them more fun or safe. So I'm hoping if I write some of the options and post them, I'll get better advice about which to use when -- and hear new options I didn't know.

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Starting with lanyards/leashes and how to clip them . . .

Lanyards / leashes: Most via ferrata kits come with two of them, each with a locking karabiner at one end, and at the other end attached to the climber's harness (by way of a shock-absorber). In the old days, VF lanyards had a fixed length, which was about as far as the climber could reach to clip the karabiner to the steel cable. Most modern commercial kits do not have that.
options . . .
a) Elastic leash/lanyard which is normally shorter, but is easily stretched to about as far as the climber can reach for clipping to cable.
b) Fixed-length but short (and perhaps not connected with shock absorber component) -- Mainly for _resting_ by hanging off a some fixed hardware other than the cable. Perhaps also comforting when clipped to the cable on an airy horizontal traverse.
c) Personal Anchor System: Not elastic, but offers choices in length, by changing which llnk loop of the PAS to attach the karabiner.

How to clip . . .
a) Clip both lanyards to each section of cable. So then at least one leash/lanyard is always clipped to the cable while re-clipping. No chance of death fall if slip while re-clipping.
b) Clip only one lanyard to each section of cable. Alternate which of the two lanyards at each rock-to-cable attachment post, so there is no chance of death fall if slip while clipping the other leash/lanyard.
c) Use only one lanyard. Saves time and fiddling, but there is a moment while re-clipping when No lanyard is connected to the cable, so a slip then could result in death fall.
d) No leash/lanyard gets clipped to the cable (or to any installed hardware). You fall, you die. But surely does save time and fiddling.

Further wrinkle on the "both lanyards" option:
a1) Gates of the karabiners on the two lanyards face in _opposite_ directions.
a2) Gates on both lanyards face in same direction: Toward the rock.
a3) Gates on both lanyards face in same direction: Away from the rock.
a4) Doesn't matter - (caring about gate directions just adds fiddle + wastes time).

Of course the climber can change clipping methods for different sections of the same climb, and to some extent even change which kind(s) of lanyard/leash to use for different sections.

What are some other possibilities?
Which are some clever non-obvious matches of option to situation?
Which methods or equipment should never be used?

In reply to kenr:

As regards clipping i usually go for a) but will use b) on easier ground say A/B. A useful technique on steep sections is to push the krabs up with your hand on the cable rather than just dragging them up, so that you don't have to waste strength reaching down for them when you get to the next stanchion. As is hanging from your elbows on the staples whilst clipping.

I don't like relying on just the elasticated lanyards when on rope bridges, especially when it's a single cable for the feet with 2 for the hands in a V configuration with no bracing, do you know what the technique would be for getting back on if you slipped off? I like to use a sling as back up clipped to both of the upper cables to provide some stability.

In reply to kenr:

You've not listed one major disadvatange of using a PAS, as least one steeper VFs where actual falling is a possibility: certain death due to high factor falls on material with no shock absorption whatsoever.


PAS's

In reply to kenr:

On wires that run at 45 degrees or steeper I oppose my gates for security, on horizontal handrails I clip both biners downwards for speed.
I normally clip both even on easy ground as it means I don't have a biner dangling around to smack me in the shins, get dragged through the dirt, or take time to pick up and use.
My top tip - when going up a steep wire use a hand or arm under the lowest biner to slide them up the wire so you don't have to reach down to drag them up to pass an anchor point. This guy shows how not to do it! youtube.com/watch?v=awORVMs_4d0&

In reply to cragtyke:

Yes nice trick on steep strenuous sections.
Though if I've brought one along with me, I find it more convenient to use a third short non-elastic lanyard with karabiner attached to my harness, and clip that to any convenient fixed hardware -- then can rest both arms (sometimes nice on a very steep section even when _not_ clipping).


I feel the same problem. Also on horizontal traverses across a very steep face with no footholds below.

I guess you have to do some sort of pull-up, likely assist that with a heel hook? Pretty tough if you're not a strong climber.

So even if I'm confident for myself, I want Sharon to have available a third short non-elastic leash so she can't fall down below. Or your idea of non-elastic slings.

Ken

Agree with the "top trick" of keeping the lanyard up high in close reach. Also helps avoid getting a karabiner caught on something below.

In reply to Toerag:

At first I missed your word "not".
Instructive video.
I've done that VF, so I'll say that sequence is the hardest on any VF I've tried anywhere.

The designers did provide a less-strenuous alternate (I don't know if they installed the alternative before or after someone _died_ climbing the section shown in that video).

So part of the "lesson" is not to take on a VF too hard, because it's really not safe to actually take a fall on a normal VF kit.

Ken

In reply to kenr:

The closest I've come to falling off a VF was on the upper rope bridge on the Talbach Wasserfall in Zillertal, it's 35m long, 3 cables in a V and no bracing at all, it's graded B but I found it really scary as all 3 cables swayed alarmingly in all directions. Only having one krab on my resting sling meant I ended up tucking the 2 higher cables into my armpits to try and get some control over them and proceeded very slowly.
I think remounting would be nigh on impossible if you fell off and you'd just have to do a hanging hand traverse to the end. I'd like to see a video of a suitable technique.

In reply to kenr:

A couple of long-ish prussicks, a couple of slings and a spare krab or two on the back of your harness will be no bother to carry and gives you loads of options for dealing with problems (like having fallen off).

Sometimes being too slow on the route (benightment, running out of water, being caught by weather, missing the cable-car/last orders) can be a more pressing risk than falling, so may lead you to adjust your system.

Most people aren't bothered by ethics, you can rest on gear at almost any point, so falling due to fatigue/hard moves should be unlikely. You can always add/attach your own gear for extra holds or protection.

It's worth continually thinking "what if this bit of gear/rock fails?", the answer will tell you if it's wise to adjust your system.

Don't commit to a zipwire section, unless you're confident there's a way of stopping which doesn't involve breaking your ankle. Stig.

Bright colours look better in photos, and are easier to spot under piles of rockfall/avalanche debris.

In reply to smithg:

Yes, valuable point.

In reply to smithg:

Yes that's useful equipment to bring. But how use it to get back on? after falling off a traverse only air below (or vertical rock w no holds)?

Ken

In reply to kenr:

Monkey bridges - either 2 or 3 wire, the result of a fall will be the same - the foot wire will ping up and you'll dangle off the handrail, probably not able to reach either if the tails on your VF set are longer than your reach. I've plenty of experience of pulley-tensioned 3 rope (not wire) bridges and this is what happens on those. Obviously wire doesn't stretch like rope does, but I still think a long wire bridge will be impossible to re-mount after a fall. Would be useful to have an answer from someone with experience.

In reply to kenr:

Some sets have a rotating attachment point to the screamer. I want one of these, as I always seem to get twisted/tangled.

In reply to Toerag:

Been thinking about this I did my first VF recently, the one near Alghero you recommended. Also what happens if you do fall and rip your kit halfway through a VF. You could get back on but your kit is useless.

I suppose the answer is you're meant to be in a group and have a rope between you?

In reply to smithg:

This is a key claim to address.
If not due to fatigue (or a rock breaking), why else might a climber (doing "normal" VF style climbing) fall?

Anyway there are now some very difficult routes with steep strenuous sections where there simply is no place to "attach your gear" except the next cable-to-rock attachment point.

If you don't have the strength/endurance to reach that, you fall.

Ken

In reply to kenr:



Nor rungs... that's just rock climbing surely, where are these?

In reply to Mike Stretford:


If you are so unlucky as to deploy your system you will have bigger worries than how to continue. VF Fall protection systems should be called death prevention systems. VF falls are nearly always very serious, not least because of the rungs and rock you will hit on the way down. The ONLY reason you should be falling off a VF is because of some factor out of your control, e.g. rock fall. If you fall because it's too strenuous then you have made a serious error of judgement as to your ability. As always, I cannot stress enough the danger of a VF fall - it's MUCH more serious than a climbing fall. So you should always be certain that you can climb a routebefore you set off.


Should you fall and escape uninjured and areable to continue then yes, belaying could be a solution if you have some dynamic rope. In which case a sling and HMS will provide materials with which to make a belay. But it will be very slow to evacuate.

In reply to kenr:

Somewhere above someone makes a point about PAS - ANY form of static sling to clip a person into a bolt must be treated with extreme caution avoiding any possibility of shock loading. Even a short fall will most likely be curtains for the user. The short clip in points you find on some lanyards are on the rip side of the absorber so they are a totally diferent kettle offish to a PAS.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


It won't be completely useless as the stitched section is really long and only part of it will have ripped. Unless you are a hugely heavy person who has undergone the maximum possible fall factor and hit the end stop on the stitching - in which case you might well have almost snapped yourself in half and need a helicopter anyway.

A bit better than nothing, and throw it away as soon as you get down.


Ideally yes, and a soloist can abseil off lot of VFs too.

In reply to beardy mike:

Sure... as a cautious climber I was a little concerned about the fall potential on the the steeper sections of the VF I did... but then the moves are very easy for a climber. I'm curious about how non-climbers get on... I'd expect guides must carry a rope for harder sections. I'd still say some of the moves are VD-S moves, but with much bigger falls than you'd get on decently protected trad route or sport.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

To be honest, VF has changed just about every way possible since it's conception. These days they are put up by touristboards to bring punters in with a spirit of oneupmanship involved in their design - the bigger the stunt the better. At the same time kits have become more accessible to people who shouldn't be anywhere near these more technical routes. Even on the relatively tame routes around the dolomites you see utter horrorshows going on with people who are only one short molecule away from lemmings in terms of their DNA. On the original routes there were never technical moves, they were nearly always made easier with rungs so your question never used to be a problem. I'm not really sure how it's going to play out but I suspect injuries and deaths may increase unless they are calmed down a bit. Personally I'd say if you exhaust the possibilities on VF's in terms of technicality, we shouldn't be putting up ever increasingly harder routes but instead help people to get into climbing properly so they ca look after themselves. I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me I'm being an elitist

In reply to Mike Stretford:

It's not "rock climbing" if you're grabbing the steel cable with both hands, as at least 98% of the VF climbers do.
. . . (In the north Italy Lakes region they often provide a chain to grasp instead of a cable).

So your feet are on the rock (expect when stepping on a cable-to-rock attachment post), but it's much easier to make your feet stick to the rock when hanging back off the cable.

As cable-replacement maintenance is getting done on some of the more difficult (non-French-style) routes, there is a tendency to use thicker cable, so it is easier to grasp.

Ken

In reply to beardy mike:


Mentioned for rests and used in addition to VF Lanyard not instead of.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

There are quite a few routes which have sections where the footholds are rock only, but you use the cable for your hands, the footholds can be anything from edges to smears especially on sections with tech grades of D or E. These can be entertaining in big boots when wet.

Tip wise, a water bladder in a small pack rather than faffing about with bottles.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Here's one:- youtube.com/watch?v=Po61lFmQ1pY&
Looking forward to Ken doing it 'free'

Did you enjoy the Sardinian VF I suggested? did your other half manage it?

In reply to Lion Bakes:

And open to interpretation. What happens when you move a foot above the bolt for some reason and then slip?

couple more "many options" questions . . .
________________________________________________________________
3. What out there to clip to?

a) around the cable so the karabiner slides freely.
b) cable-to-rock attachment post.
c) into a rung or stemple or hand-rail or loop of cable.
d) onto hardware with no hole or loop (e.g. protruding post, or horizontal foot-plate).
e) around the Chain (some VF in north Italy Lakes region use chain instead of cable),
. . . so the karabiner slides freely.
f) into hole of intermediate link of Chain, so krab does not slide.
g) attach/clamp to intermediate point on steel Cable, somehow so
. . . krab does _not_ slide freely.
________________________________________________________________
4. What device on end of lanyard/leash to clip with?

a) normal VF kit large self-locking karabiner.
b) other kind of krab -- smaller? non-locking?
c) sling/runner attached to external anchor point, clipped w krab of VF kit.
d) small removable hook to external anchor point, clipped w krab of VF kit
. . . (e.g. into hole of small link in Chain).
e) Skylotec Skyrider disk on lanyard (instead of krab), which locks onto steel cable,
. . . slides only upward, not downward, and rated to hold the impact of a short fall.
f) some other way to attach/clamp to intermediate points on steel Cable?
. . . prusik loop? auto-block? mechanical ascender?
g) ... ? others ? . . .
________________________________________________________________

In reply to Toerag:

I've found another, bit less extreme but more pulling up on vertical cable, which I found surprising.

youtube.com/watch?v=gEVUGHV5BrE&

I'm with beardy mike, I think it's silly to have technicality when the backup system is truly last resort. I'd have thought it was time to start climbing on bolts were a fall is pretty innocuous.


Yeah I enjoyed it, nice to get away from the crowds and into a stunning location. Gf didn't fancy it.... she isn't good with heights.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Yeah, I don’t fancy the very hard French style ones with loose cable alongside for a last resort with a high fall factor. Seems very scary. The hard ones I have done in the Dolomites have taut cable in short sections to minimise fall potential which people tend to climb with one or both hands on the cable. I witnessed a guy with another group have a foot slip on a slab ahead of me and he just slid down a metre holding the cable in his gloved hand, no kit deployment and nothing hurt but his pride as he decided it was not the VF for him and walked off.

Also the quality of protection has improved over time. VF Cesare Piazzetta is old school and if you fell on that you could either smash yourself on the ground (bottom clip less than a metre above ledge) or get disembowelled by a protruding bit of rebar put in as a foothold. The modern ones (Col dei Bos, Sci Club, Magnifici 4) have rubber bumpers on vertical sections, hooks to route a top rope, and route the horizontal traverses a couple of metres above a ledge.

In reply to Gone:

The rubber bumpstops do nothing to prevent shock loading, it's more to help with carabiner orientation as they are usually cone shaped so helps prevent sideloading the biner which of course is a poor orientation for loading.

In reply to beardy mike:

Yes, it’s not a great thought to have while clipping that if you fall while failing to make a clip, you have just one carabiner which is going to hurtle down a cable and possibly lever itself open or snap itself in half at the stopping point. Two carabiners,hopefully they won’t both go, although I can’t say I always bother to keep them opposed.

The rubber bumpers do also help with some of the disembowelling issues.

In reply to cragtyke:
So my hot tips:


1. With wobbly swaying rope bridges get yer mate to stand still about 1m or 2m out from the end. As you sway they move around and act as a damper dramatically reducing the swaying action.


2. Do not be ashamed to "leg brace" the cable on a tricky vertical section as in the video. Push your knee through, but not your foot as you don't want to flip if you fall. It allows you to use strong leg muscles to hold yourself into the cliff and free a hand.
3. A quick draw - especially one with a longer sling - acts as a cheap and excellent short clip. It would have saved this guy's bacon if he could have clipped a staple. Good for resting at such points, or if there is a queue above. (NB only ever short clip horizontal rungs/staples or cable, never vertical or angled cable!)
4. A half rope scrambling rope such as the Simond 30m half rope from Decathlon would also have saved this situation. Light and easy to carry. Its important to have a half rope as you can then ab off the VF if necessay - I did this when my daughter aged about 14 was too tired to continue on a VF in the Ecrins. A so-called walkers "security" rope is not worth the money. Add a crab or two plus a belay plate.
5. Elbow hook a rung or staple downwards - not upwards as he tried in the video. Much less effort required to hang around, and your now free hand can be used for handling lanyards at chest level.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Northern Italy - Dolomites and around lake Garda. I love the Dolmite VFs as they're more like scrambling, whereas French, German, and Austrian VFs are over engineered and you can pretty much climb bottom to top witout touching rock!

Google "via ferrata rino pisetta" just north of Riva del Garda. Its basically a VD rock climb with a cable.

In reply to kenr:


They do, but rope hauling is more tiring than climbing properly as you are reapeating basically the same action over and over. I like to try and climb when possible as it is less exhausting.

In reply to beardy mike:


Then you have three bits of gear to protect you.

In reply to Lion Bakes:

No, you shockload the PAS which if you manage to land directly onto a bolt means you cause high impact to your harness with the distinct possibility of seriously injuring yourself. The lanyards will have no effect.

In reply to beardy mike:


And how does that differ from smashing into the rock face or a ledge after falling 15 or more metres compared to a 2 metre fall?? Besides you clearly havent done many VF if you think there are bolts to clip into everywhere.

In reply to Lion Bakes:

Yes dear.

Short static slings can generate upwards of 18kn in very short falls of less than a metre. The length of fall is less important than the abruptness of deceleration. Considering nearly evey VF kit these days is built with a short resting clip point built in, or a point to which you could attach one, there is absolutely no good reason to clip in with a static sling directly attached to your harness. Removing all dynamic elements from a fall protection system when you are generating a minimum of fall factor 2 is about as dumb as it gets. But crack on chap, you carry on with what you do and I'll carry on doing what I do for a job.

In reply to beardy mike:

Sounds like a great idea ...

I've checked three well-known manufacturer's current websites and have not found anything like that.
How about a couple of links to positive examples currently on offer.


Unless I don't want to pay substantial money to purchase a new harness only for that purpose. And because I never clip my third short leash except for resting on a steep section, or on a horizontal traverse so my feet don't fall way down below the cable. So there's no possibiliity of significant shock loading.

What other purpose would I have for clipping my short leash?

Ken

Prusik loops
Yesterday I tried wrapping a prusik loop twice around the steel cable on a VF route in the Adige river valley between Trento and Bolzano. Seemed like a fairly normal cable diameter and design I've seen on other VF routes around Dolomites and Arco.
. . . (Thanks to the idea earlier in this thread in the post by smithg).

Then I pulled steadily strongly on it in a more or less downward direction, and at first it would slowly slip a centimeter or two, but then it would hold firmly.

If I took extra care in wrapping the loop tightly around the cable, usually it did not slip at all.

Then I tried repetitions of loading it, then releasing the tension on it, sliding it up on the cable, then loading it again. And that worked just fine (almost better than moving a prusik on rope).

I also tried a mild shock load (yanking with my arm), and for that the loop slipped a little and then held.

So seems like a prusik loop or two would be useful for Resting on a very steep section with no hardward available except the cable. Or even Aiding upward, using two prusiks like ascenders. Or even hanging an etrier off the prusik to create a sequence of easy-to-use footholds.

Ken

P.S. I did _not_ try any of this with the cable wet.

In reply to kenr:
Here are three with either a short clip in leash or a lanyard attatchment point which would be suitable fo larks footing a supplementary sling in to.

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Lanyards/SCORPIO-EASHOOK
http://www.camp.it/prodotti3.aspx?CAT=29&CDV=85&B=&ART=|1812
https://www.skylotec.com/uk_en/sport/products/via-ferrata-sets/skysafe-iii-...

With regards the new harness I'm not sure what a new harness would have to do with it. It is simply a very very bad idea to be recommending on a public forum read by english speakers and foreign language speakers (who may not fully understand your meaning) any system for a via ferrata which involves a static sling directly to any harness when there is a potential for shock loading. Especially when manufacturers have built their systems to obviate the need! My point through out pointing this out is that people make mistakes. Even if you are on a horizontal traverse and you move up so the sling is not at full stretch you are setting up a high impact fall for youself. It might only be a foot but you will generate a significant impact. So whilst you say you never do it, it's really not hard to envisage a scenario where one might. Then there are scenarios where you might not be to fault - what if you move onto a section of cable where there is another person and the fall on you? Or the next section above is not very long and they land on you? Think about it - even if the section you are on is 1.5 metres, a lanyard stretches to 1m usually, some one on the next section falls the full length of the outside UIAA norm 2m length and their system rips - the lanyard fully deployed is circa 2m, so you are well within their range, with possibly enough force to dislodge you.

Somewhere floating in the ether there is a DMM video about falling onto slings which is mainly about pressure melting of Dyneema slings when used in a static scenario. It also shows what happens to open loop slings and larksfooted slings and shows that with an 80kg mass falling on to a static anchor you will easilly generate huge forces in a very short fall - worth searching it out. I couldn't find it in a short search but it'll be there somewhere...

edit: found it - http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/

In reply to beardy mike:
My third short lanyard does not stretch very much (not noticeably at all).
And it's made from nylon, not dyneema or spectra.

I am confident that it will easily hold the impact of, as you say, "falling only a foot".

In reply to beardy mike:

Recommend?
What I _recommend_ is that anyone reading this thread just stay home and surf the web.

In reply to kenr:
Is it girth hitched directly to your harness?

And have you considered it's not whether your sling will rupture or not, but whether your body will be badly injured from being subjected to forces of 13-14 kN...

In reply to kenr:

RE Falling off. I think of VF kit as being like an avalanche transceiver. You have it on and working in case something goes wrong, but you don't set out expecting to need to deploy it. Whereas with rock climbing kit, you can quite reasonably go out expecting to take multiple falls quite safely.

As mentioned, even using VF kit, it is often not 'safe' to fall as you can easily get badly injured. I don't think designing sport VF routes in a way which makes falling likely, is a good idea.

RE getting back on after a fall. If you are dangling free from your lanyard with nothing useful in reach, you can apply a couple of prussiks to your lanyard (a long one for your foot and a shorter one from your harness). You then prussik up the lanyard to reach whatever it's attached to (the same as prussiking up a rope).

Prussiks can be any loop of cord, sling or webbing (can also use the wire from climbing nuts) and the prussik knot can be classic, klemheist, french, etc with varying numbers of turns used (generally, more and neater turns grip better).
YouTube/google for more explanation/examples and practise variations to see what works.

Thanks to smithg -- very creative idea --
instead of prusiking up the cable (which I might not be able to reach),
prusik up my lanyard.

Ken