UKC

Pre-Clipped Second Bolt, Yes or No?

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 mop449 01 Jul 2018

So I was wondering the situations in which it's ok to have the second bolt clipped. I thought it was just on very steep overhangs where falling off would slam you into the rope/belayer/ground. However a friend is saying that it's ok on a vertical limestone route (  The Toilet (8a)) because "clipping the second bolt ruins the flow of the climbing".

I just wanted a general consensus on this because I think it's not acceptable in this context.

1
 john arran 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Fine if that's what you want to do. Not fine if it isn't.

OP mop449 01 Jul 2018
In reply to john arran:

But surely not having to clip the second bolt makes it easier? Does having the third bolt clipped as well still count as a clean lead? Or 4th... Etc.?

7
 john arran 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

There are no hard and fast rules about what 'counts'. If you're happy with it, it counts. If others disagree, they're entitled to. There's no referee.

 

 Jim 1003 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Some French guidebooks recommend it...

 

 UKB Shark 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

I'm not averse to pre-clipping the second or even third bolt for a variety of reasons but its well over the top to pre-clip the second bolt on the Toilet as the first is at about 10 feet and the second isn't that hard to clip it all.

1
In reply to mop449:

My own view is that it's okay to pre-clip the 2nd if the clip on lead does not add significantly to the difficulty of the route (i.e. the clip does not constitute "a move"), and if a fall making that clip would likely lead to problems paying the rent!

 n-stacey 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:Why not just top rope it?

Then you can take all of the adventure away and make it completely safe..

 

15
In reply to mop449:

If it's accepted that you can clip the second bolt, why did the First Ascender bother wasting money putting the first bolt in ?!?

12
 Cheese Monkey 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Literally no one cares so long as you’re honest. If they do, they’re weird and should be ignored

1
Removed User 01 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Jerry says you are not allowed to preclip the first one so what the f*ck are you doing clipping the second one as well?

5
 Tom Valentine 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Presumably you are familiar with the idea of top roping.

5
 J Whittaker 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

If it stops ground fall potential id do it. Isnt sport climbing about just climbing hard and not bothering too much about decking it? I don't do much sport, predominantly trad where bricking it above crap gear is part of the game.

Post edited at 05:46
In reply to mop449:

Quite a large thread on this quite recently:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/how_many_bolts_can_you_clip_stic...

The consensus seemed to be it was fine if safety was an issue.

 OllieBarker 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Do what you want and just be honest. If it's a tough bottom section I'll often do this to lower the risk of decking if I don't have the moves wired or if it's a clip from a precarious position. I know people who, if they pre-clip the 2nd) will take it as they go past to prove to themselves they could have clipped it.

 peppermill 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

No prizes for broken ankles, you'll just look and feel a fanny for having too much pride. Besides it's not like you're claiming a bold trad ascent- the whole thing's bolted. Nowt wrong with a double princess clip! ;p

Post edited at 10:38
 stp 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

Generally not proper redpoint ethics. The logic of the redpoint ethic is based on what it's like to free solo a route. The rope and quickdraws are only there in case of a fall. So preclipping bolts is essentially a form of aid. On a hard route clipping a bolt can be really hard so if you use a stick to clip then you've skipped some of the difficulty of the climb. That's the idea from French and German climbing at least where redpointing came from.

In Britain things evolved differently. When bolts were first placed on routes, because they were considered unethical, routes were often done with the minimum bolts required. One way of minimizing the bolts was to place the first bolt as high as you could. So here we've got a legacy of climbs with really high first bolts. Since most climbers don't generally want to take big risks when they go climbing the stick clip has become an acceptable way around the problem.

Additionally some routes with hard, usually steep starts, it's become acceptable to deliberately place the first bolt high so one can climb the hard bit without having to clip a bolt every few feet. Sometimes though it can be hard to keep the rope of the way of the climber so a directional lower first bolt is placed for that purpose. In such cases the second bolt is designed to be pre-clipped.

Another point is that where are some routes where a fall while clipping the second bolt could land you on the deck. So if a route is like that many climbers, not wanting to risk a ground fall, will pre clip the second.

If you're pre-clipping the bolts though simply to save yourself the effort then you're effectively making the route less strenuous which is a form of cheating. A technique often used to get round strenuous second or even third clips to climb up and clip the rope into the bolts then down climb back to the ground. If you do that its usually considered fine to leave rope clipped that way for the rest of the day or all subsequent tries on the route. The logic is back to free climbing. You haven't weighted the rope, or in other words used it as a form of aid.

So the somewhat organic evolution of climbing has made the ethics somewhat complicated. But if you understand the rational you'll be well placed to make your own decisions for each route.

 stp 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

BTW The Toilet was designed to be climbed without any pre-clipping needed. Just start on the ground and climb up and clip the bolts as you go.

 GravitySucks 02 Jul 2018
In reply to stp:

 

> Another point is that where are some routes where a fall while clipping the second bolt could land you on the deck. So if a route is like that many climbers, not wanting to risk a ground fall, will pre clip the second.

I concur with all the points you have made, and would only edit the above statement to say that you should be be able to pre clip as many bolts as necessary to ensure that you wont deck out whilst clipping. I have been on several routes where this is actually three bolts!

The Toilet, is not one of these, occasionally awkward and strenuous but not dangerous. 

 Ramon Marin 02 Jul 2018
In reply to mop449:

depends how much you value your ankles or your head. Tony Dunn had a close scape at Malham. I normally have two pre-clipped. If want excitement I go trad climbing


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