UKC

I am a product design student and I need to re-design a product to improve it. 

Which climbing, walking or otherwise outdoor products under £30 needs the most improvement in your experience?

It could be electric or mechanical for example a belay device, compass, bike pump, headtorch.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate any help

(this is not for profit, its just a university project)

There have been a couple of innovative concepts around improving on the drawstring chalk bag closure system, with scope for more. The Arc'teryx aperture chalk bag twists down closed, while the Y&Y chalk stopper uses magnetic flaps.

Clip sticks.

I don't know if you are a climber; if you're not, go along with some climbers to a sport climbing crag and find out what a clip stick is for. In particular need of improvement is the part that holds the gate of the karabiner open while clipping the bolt. 

Good point. I find twist closure chalk bags generally superior to drawstrings. And the Edelrid version better than the Arcteryx one - but not yet perfect. When my hands are really sweaty the closure fabric gets damp & gets in the way. And the velcro doesn't last forever, I'm on my second or third one.

Have you tried a Pongoose? They’re fantastic and a big improvement over the Beta stick. 

Good design solves problems (and is elegant in all senses). Imposing design on things that don't need it is as often a mistake as it is a benefit and puts the cart in front on the horse.

Look at a heap of outdoors stuff and spot something "wrong". Then start designing...

Good luck

An improved release system at the back of harnesses for 'comfort breaks'.

Something that is possible for the wearer to release and reatch themselves, rather than having to rely on a partners help. Oh and one that doesn't dangle on the ground in the line of fire when squatting would be handy too.

Thanks, I agree. I'm focusing on user experience to influence my design so I'm asking for peoples personal experience to identify a real world problem that I can resolve. I could find a problem myself but I'm asking on here for a broader view. 

I would be more worried about not filling my trousers.😄😄😄😄😄😄😄👍

Just out of interest what makes the Pongoose superior to the Beta stick? In your opinion. 

For those without testicles (there's an uncomfortable story for a different thread) I'd recommend the black diamond alpine bod harness. That's the one without an abseil/belay loop. You can stay attached by the waist belt and get all the leg loops out of the way to do a number two (and number one for the category above)

A few things. The Beta stick can do them, but the Pongoose does them a lot better:
 

- The gate stays open much more reliably, with a greater variety of quickdraws.

 - It’s much easier to put a rope into a quickdraw.

- The Pongoose hangs a lot nicer on your harness. 

- It’s much easier to remove a quickdraw from a bolt. 

- The pole on the Pongoose feels significantly more solid + like it will last longer than a beta.
 

Fair enough.

It's also 50 squid more expensive so I would expect those upgrades.

P.s. which Beta stick are you talking about? The Evo with the green head?

Zips!!!

Thanks, I am a climber but I think a clipstick might be too big for me to choose as I have to do 1:1 prototype models.

Thanks anyway

With compasses, maybe think about how well the romer markings work - or alternatively, don't - on some designs? Also, if you're anywhere near Dartmoor, have a chat with the local letterboxers about what they use by way of sighting compasses and what they'd like to be able to able to actually buy!

A method to stop loose rucksack straps flapping in the wind and hitting you in the face would be useful.

Chalk. 

So much about it and using it could be improved. 

Climber communication. 

Walkie talkies just aren't designed for climbers. From a design point of view. 

Both the older blue head, and the newer green head. The only useful changes to the newer stick IMO are the addition of the hook for pulling a rope, and the slightly improved pole. The clip in point on the Evo is better than the original stick, but still rubbish compared to the Pongoose. 

Rope bags. Some how the best one i've had so far is a 50p ikea bag which suggests there is probably room for improvement! Maybe this one has already been solved but I had a la sportiva bag that was doooog shite.

-The fold out mat wasnt waterproof so if you stood on it, then the rope got wet.

-It fitted awful as a back pack. It sagged over below my waist so much I wore a hole in it while bum scrambling on approaches.

-No internal zippered pockets for keys or phone or whatever just one big compartment 

-It had no straps/loops to attach additional equipment to once the bag has been filled, which with winter clothing and a full rack is almost always. 

Just some gripes off the top of my head I could probably think of a bunch more. 

Already exists: https://www.profabrics.co.uk/products/webbing-loop-stays-25mm

Is that the improved spear feature when the section's retaining system explodes..?!

It's not the stick bit that's the problem. It's the krab retention mechanism. You can prototype that at 1:1 fairly easily, and, in fact, you would have to to try it out with a krab. Just stick it on any bit of suitable tubing to try it out. Even a walking pole with the basket removed. That might even be a potential product...

The little clip which connects your left and right gloves could be improved. If they made them a bit longer, it would make winter climbing much easier.

Dislikers - please explain to me how the Beta is better! I must be doing something wrong! 

Don't waste time on clips sticks or chalk products, neither of those things are needed anyhow!!

I would like an electric belay device though.

Only tangentially related to climbing, but what I'd like is a better bag for my climbing gear to use when cycling to the crag. I don't like wearing a rucksack on the bike, so I want something that attaches to the rack. I currently use a Sainsbury's bag for life and bungee it on. It works well, but could use a bit of improvement in the way it attaches. So, a bag like a shopping bag that can be easily and securely closed and attached to a bike rack. Light, strong, cheap and orange. Add some straps and bungee points and maybe some reflective tape and you have a product.

For £30 I would reasonably expect to buy a pair of belay glasses that are robust and not easily broken.

A recent thread: Scarpa Phantom's Modded - Salomon Quicklace

Sounds a good idea but apparently  has limitations eg won't work on existing laces, the special kevlar laces can damages eyelets, 2 kits may be required per boot.

Rucsack system with removable sweaty back panel to make washable against stinking!

Boot laces that stay done up.

I think its more to do with at least 2 people in this thread working for Beta.

Instead of taking a pair of approach shoes up a multi-pitch route could you design something really minimalist that you could put over your rock shoes to give a bit of grip for the walk down(and in some instances also for the walk in).

I just chuck the whole pack in the wash

A very long ice axe that reaches the top of the crag.  The shaft has a ladder which you then climb up.  I'd give you a 1st.

Auto-legs.  Powered trouser inserts which carry you up mountains with minimal effort.  E bikes have done it for cyclists.  Now it's the turn of mountaineers.

I've done that with a pair of Teva (simple velcro strap) sandals. Grippy and fit over climbing shoes pretty well.

Take my money.

Right now.

AGREED

Some means of using a touch screen particularly map app when it's wet and your fingers are wet. Would probably cost more than £30 though! 

Maybe over budget but a dedicated rope solo device that works in the cold would be nice! 

Why not try and improve climbing forums?

I read your question and really thought £30 is not a lot these days and that you might need a higher sum to hit home, so whilst I can I will rant that the longevity of running shoes needs to be much better. For even a semi-serious runner, you might use 5 pairs a year (if you go with 300-500 miles) per pair. This is expensive, but also poor for the environment. If you could fabricate a sole that is grippy and hardwearing and that remains cushioned and supportive over time that would be good. 

It already exists and cost under a tenner. Just download the M app. 😁

Quick change head torch battery box (for 3xAAA torches).

A better Helmet visor/peak design for spindrift days

Strong ankle gaiters for winter boots.

Short point crampons -like a tricouni plate.

Shovel blade to attach to ice tool, and that can work as a deadman. Not necessarily to the spike but maybe to to the head to make a big adze.

Zip pull torch magnifying glass thing for map reading.

I'd love a battery powered espresso machine with milk frother that weighs 100g or less.

I'd also like a Belay buddy - a big cuddly teddy bear filled with Primaloft insulation that you can cuddle and talk to at cold lonely belays.  It could also have a talk/comment feature (pull cord on the back?) that could say things like "cheer up, it's fun really", and "what's taking him so long? It's easy ground".

I currently have my nut key on a retractable ski pass holder thing. Doing that was the best idea I've ever had but my solution isn't elegant. It involves 2 mini krabs so it dangles a bit. Make a compact, elegant retractable nut key. 

Map cases are within your budget, and I've never found a good one that suits. An a4 printed map in a polypocket is convenient for folding and putting in your pocket, but isn't securely attached and therefore a bit too easy to lose. And not waterproof at the open end. A securely attached map in a proper map case can be a real faff when you're checking it regularly. There never seems to be anywhere handy to keep it as it isn't easy to fold. This might be just me though. 

While you're waiting... Check out Harvey's Ultramaps. Smart, waterproof, tiny and 1:40k often with summit callouts.

Excellent! 😃

I think I'd go for a simple, common format lithium; one of the old mobile phone types; BL-5C or similar.

Ha ha Nice one! Have a Like

I do always carry one as a back up, but it's still frustrating when the GPS stops working properly due to that

What's wrong with black electrical tape?

I've occasionally wondered, when fumbling in a gale, whether those throat-mounted gubbins that Navy Seal types have in films might be worth a go?

Apparently Goretex costs $2-13 per yard, under your £30 limit, so please create a waterproof breathable fabric that doesn't start leaking after a few washes / 3 years. Bonus marks if it doesn't leak when you sit on it from day 1.

Not climbing, but I've never found a MTB tyre lever that does /the job well. I always think they are a bit like potato peelers...  It's personal and what works for Bob, won't work for you?

What's wrong with the plastimo ones made for yachties (apart from them being heavy)?

The humble brush at climbing walls.  They are either monstrous contraptions with multiple fixings and over complicated or they are a simple washing line pole with a brush gaffa taped to the end.  In almost all circumstances they are worn to within a few mm of use and offer hardly any useful brushing.

I would make it an extendable pole with a built in head offering 2 angles.  The brush itself would have a cartridge (Like replaceable brake blocks) for renewing the worn out bristles.  This would make it sturdier, less prone to breaking and more environmentally friendly as you wouldnt be throwing used brushes out every time.  Just the bristles.

Helmet-mounted headset would be the way forward I think. complete with black box-type last 5 minutes recording so users can re-live their screams when they fall off, film makers can have audio of the psychobabble and relatives can find out why their loved ones didn't make it.

How about a auto-locking karabiner that's actually easy to open - everything seems to push and twist the wrong way these days.

Use your nose. That's free

It's been done - and look what happened to Wallace

You need one of these

https://viz.co.uk/2014/10/20/ramblers-friend/

A shoe cover that goes on/off easily and can go in a pocket or clipped a harness.

Be useful for between goes when bouldering in a group.

Needs to be able resist sheep shit and mud...

Overshoes for building sites, used to enter newly carpeted buildings just prior to finishing , are available and ahem , free by the handful , already exist. Only good for two or three days on the crag though, soon trash up.

A few small pieces of old carpet to step between seem to work best.

Remember that 12mm rope with a comms core & headphones from the early '80s? Who made it?

Some of the Micro-talk W-Ts can go voice-activated with a 3.4mm jack headset (old Apple earbuds). Not much use in a hooly though.

I saw a guy at cratcliff who just walked around in big Ugg boots, with his climbing shoes on. Stepped out onto a mat and climbed 

Throat mic and bone conduction headphones might solve wind issue... def over 30 quid though

Don't remember who manufactured it but it was marketed by Roger Turner mountain sports of Nottingham as "the talking rope"

Roger was outwardly a bit grumpy but underneath a lovely bloke. Beryl his wife was just lovely and a very good skier.

Never actually saw the rope in action. 

We've got the Makita battery powered coffee maker for work. It's about 2kg with the battery and doesn't froth the milk but it's not bad. Weigh penalty would be tolerable if you slip it into your mate's sack in the carpark. Their anger will be offset by the piping fresh brew, especially if it's presented by the belay bear on arrival at the stance.

I think you should redesign this winter and make it snowy! And if you could start right away please, that would be great!

Not quite 100g but compact!

https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/bellman/50ss

Pong free climbing shoes/climbing shoe lining.

Remotely operated partner electric shock system to stop them looking at butterflies or the likes when you are teetering on the brink  or when they are dawdling to the crag.

Universal phone mount for fingerboards.

Harness clips for PAS to stop it getting in the way when climbing.  
 

Extra gear loops for harnesses. They never have enough. Wouldn't it be nice to be able add them easily to any harness?

Now I'm getting old I'm OK with walking long distances on the flat or walking hard up a Munro but going down really hurts my knees.

I wonder if there's potential for some kind of device which could act as a knee protection shock absorber for going downhill.  It wouldn't need to be powered because the point would be to dissipate energy - in theory you could even extract energy and try and do something useful with it but that's probably just overcomplicating what could perhaps be a simple and light gadget.

I'd like a parasol system that could fit directly to a rucksack for walking on hot sunny days. I normally wear a wide brimmed hat on hot sunny days, but a nice sun shade attached to my bag would be much more comfortable and less sweaty! It is possible to attach a normal umbrella to a rucksack to provide shade but it's not ideal.

Walking poles and  shock absorbers in footwear seem to be the best solution so far.

Wasn't a similar arrangement used by prewar continental climbers? For rain, not sun. Be interesting to know how they did it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/G4Free-Ultralight-Reflective-Backpacking-Handsfree...

Intriguing. Don't think I've seen any pics of that sort of thing, but would be interesting if they did use some sort of system like that. Sounds like exactly the kind of thing that might have been popular in that time period

Poorly optimised I'm afraid :p.  That's the kind of solution I've seen other people try sometimes, and think I tried it myself once but didn't get on with it. 

Ideally I'd imagine something less likely to get in the way of your head, and less wasted coverage behind you / snagging likelihood from extending to the sides so far. Also having something a bit smaller, maybe with overlapping strips of fabric to allow wind to blow through without carrying you away. 

There seem to be  quite a few others out there (google images), but I think wind would do for most of them. The parasol application suggests benign weather whereas a brolly implies wind. From my limited experience of trying an umbrella outdoors (my Golight period) I wouldn't hold out much hope of a UK workable solution

Ooh, there's a thought.  We all know how handy a group shelter can be when you stop for a brew in foul weather.  But how about a group shelter you can all get inside without having to stop moving, like a kind of group cagoule.

Like one of these? https://images.app.goo.gl/YsyQ3FcMSnkDTyEa7

Walking poles are probably the answer but I don't like them.

Maybe they could make shoes with 'air' technology like running shoes and a way to adjust the pressure or pump up a secondary air pad for more cushioning on the way down

That'll be the Chinese clone...

Can't remember where I read it but possibly in magazines or books in 60s/70s discussing Menlove Edwards, pitons in Tryfan, "hand that would drive a piton into british rock would just as soon shoot a fox" etc.

Something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ice-Grippers-Traction-Non-slip-Slip/dp/B078S4WMD4

Only instead of spikes, it has SPD cleats: https://www.amazon.co.uk/BV-Bike-Cleats-Compatible-Shimano/dp/B07BRDVJ5J

Apologies for the Amazon links - they're just handy illustrations of what I'm thinking of.

Occasionally it would be nice to be able to go for a ride without having to take a second pair of shoes with me if I want to do something else afterwards (cycling to parkrun and back springs to mind)

Bouldering chalk bag that doesn't capsize with  phone and keys in its pocket please.

What you want is toilet seat dampers* attached to frames on thigh and calfs. *or gas struts. Something with stiff compression damping to absorb the peak force bending your knee, and little rebound damping to allow you to straighten it quickly. I too find going downhill much tougher on my knees than going uphill, to the extent that I consider planning hikes in the alp to involve a walk up and cablecar down rather than the other way round.

If you're able to design a velcro climbing shoe fastening that doesn't now and then get caught and pull itself open as you're moving your foot about you'd be on to something there...

Makita make one that takes their battery system if you want something portable...

I've recently been thinking of making myself some deadmen for pitching tents on snow. Thinking of something made of fabric a bit like a mini version of a sea anchor or drogue used on boats, the idea being you fill it with snow and bury it. Hopefully it would be a bit lighter and more packable than stakes etc.

You could try pull testing with different sizes and shapes and hole patterns (I read somewhere that having holes in makes them stronger as the snow in front and behind it can 'sinter' or bind together through the hole). Obviously you'd need to get to somewhere snowy to test. Could be an excuse for a trip to Scotland or something, or perhaps ask nicely at an indoor ski slope if there's one near enough to you.

I would definitely buy that if someone made them!

The pole goes way longer on the Beta stick for the same packed down length. For the mid-size Beta, which when collapsed is the same length as the shorter Pongoose, you get 90cm (31%) more reach! The longer size is slightly less comparable as the collapsed lengths differ, but the longer Beta Evo goes 50% longer than the longer Pongoose when extended. And it's cheaper. But yes, the Pongoose head is great, particularly for removing a quickdraw. You can do it with the Beta with a bit of practice, but it's definitely easier with the Pongoose.

Way back in time, I'm sure someone made an automatically unclipping carabiner that was on a timer, so you could abseil a full rope length, and then it'd unclip. Just don't go too slow... We don't need one of them.

A padded pocket that forms the base rather than a side?

What we really need is an Iain M Banks style "Gravity Harness"

This is very interesting, thanks.  I'm very tempted with the Bellman CX25 espresso machine with frother.  Nearly £100 though.  Great for car camping.

I as of now have my nut key on a retractable ski pass holder thing. Doing that was the smartest thought I've at any point had yet my answer isn't exquisite. It includes 2 small-scale krabs so it hangs a little. Make a minimized, exquisite retractable nut key.

Are you familiar with http://www.balloonbed.co.uk/ They are very light, but really not very good.

When they are wet, they are almost impossible to get the balloons in, and the balloons generally burst during the night.  Also, it's really hard to blow up the balloons without a small pump.  I'm not sure how easy it would be to do better, but it gives you a bit to work on.

A problem might be that if you tried to redesign it, you might end up with something like the Inertia X Frame, which is very good and solves all the problems I outline above.

Just use plastic shopping bags filled with snow.

you tried the  edelrid sliders, i like them

https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/locking-carabiners/pure-slider.html

Every tent bag should be 10% bigger

An Elevent?

Spacehopper?

Edelrid slider.